Video: Bradie James & Roy Williams

[superpunk]

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. What I do care about is how they reached that opinion.

Meaning, how can someone claim that he's a liability when he's clearly better than the majority of safeties. That just boggles my mind. The facts say one thing, and the head coach's opinion agrees with the facts. But for some reason people claim the opposite. Why is Roy a liability? Does he allow more receptions than most safeties? No, we know that he doesn't. Does he allow more yards per reception than most safeties? No, that can't be it either because we know, for a fact, that he doesn't. Does he get less INTs than other safeties? No that can't be it. He gets plenty of INTs. I just would like to know the reason why some believe he's a liability.

theogt wins!

down goes abq!

down goes abq!

down goes abq!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't care what anyone's opinion is. What I do care about is how they reached that opinion.

Meaning, how can someone claim that he's a liability when he's clearly better than the majority of safeties. That just boggles my mind. The facts say one thing, and the head coach's opinion agrees with the facts. But for some reason people claim the opposite. Why is Roy a liability? Does he allow more receptions than most safeties? No, we know that he doesn't. Does he allow more yards per reception than most safeties? No, that can't be it either because we know, for a fact, that he doesn't. Does he get less INTs than other safeties? No that can't be it. He gets plenty of INTs. I just would like to know the reason why some believe he's a liability.

OK, well, I asked you earlier to produce the criteria. If it's Adams, then show me how he did it. According to you, he's in the top 33% of the NFL last year. The year before he's in the top 5%. That would mean that he's 1 or 2 in the league. Show me whatever it is that you are using to qualify your statements.

 

[theogt]

OK, well, I asked you earlier to produce the criteria. If it's Adams, then show me how he did it. According to you, he's in the top 33% of the NFL last year. The year before he's in the top 5%. That would mean that he's 1 or 2 in the league. Show me whatever it is that you are using to qualify your statements.

Adam gets the numbers from STATS LLC, which is a company that compiles stats for every major sport. They're not publicly available. Sports franchises and media organizations pay large sums to have access. The stats you see on ESPN.com and SI.com and many other sites are provided by STATS LLC. Unfortunately, those sites don't provide access to all of the metrics kept by STATS LLC, such as YPA and completion % for defenders. I don't have Adams posts bookmarked, but those that I'm referring to are well-known. He has something like 5000 posts, so I'm not about to go digging through them. If you dont' belive me, that's fine.

By the way, I said that in 2005 he was a top 5 strong safety, not top 5%. And the number for 06 was somewhere between 33% and 40%. I don't remember the exact number. I've been using top 1/3 as an approximation. But he would almost certainly have ranked higher than top 1/3 if you considered only strong safeties. That might put him in the top 5 again or may have just kept him in the top 10.

 

[superpunk]

Some of Adam's greatest hits (it's a mixture of 05 and 06, methinks

According to STATS LLC., there were 66 safeties (free or strong) who were targeted at least 30 times this season. Of those 66, only four allowed a lower completion rate than Roy, only two had more passes defended, only one had more interceptions, and 39 allowed more yards per attempt.

Lower completion rate -- Oshiomogho Atogwe, Danieal Manning, Deon Grant and Antoine Bethea.

More passes defended -- Sean Jones and Chris Hope.

Ed Reed allowed more completions, a higher completion percentage, more yardage, and allowed only two fewer TDs than Roy.

Consider for a moment how far superior Baltimore's pass rush is to ours. We all know that the best way to make a secondary look good is through a diligent pass rush. Even through that, with a shoulder problem, Roy performed with the best in the league.

Here's some more stats on safeties in comparison to Roy.

According to STATS LLC., here are the number of pass completions allowed by some safeties this season --

Adrian Wilson 39
Brian Dawkins 35
Sean Taylor 29 (prior to Saturday's game)
Ed Reed 28
Troy Polamalu 25 (missed three games)
Roy Williams 24

TDs allowed
Roy gave up 8.
Reed-6
Taylor-11 (led league)
Wilson - 6

Roy's only problem this year was that he was involved in allowing eight TD passes (according to STATS LLC.) -- some when he was in man-to-man coverage and some when he was helping someone else (or ran into the ref). In several games, he was involved in allowing only one or two catches -- but one was a TD catch, so people think he had a bad game in coverage. If he had allowed more catches but fewer touchdowns, he'd probably get a lot less criticism than he has gotten.

Adrian Wilson allowed far more catches and more yards, and he had fewer interceptions and PDs, but he allowed "only" six touchdowns, so he escapes criticism. Ed Reed allowed more catches and more yards, had fewer PDs, had the same number of interceptions and allowed six touchdowns. Sean Taylor allowed more catches and more yards, had far fewer interceptions and far fewer PDs, AND he led the league in TD catches allowed -- 11. Taylor also led the league BY FAR in missed tackles with 19, the highest total in the 11 years that STATS has been keeping track of them.

So tell me -- why is Roy the only one of those who is heavily criticized in the media?

Jeff Sanders (Phoenix AZ): Is Adrian Wilson the most underrated safety in the NFL? Hes one of the hardest hitters and best blitzers in the game and would've made the pro bowl if he was on a winning team.

SportsNation Jeremy Green: I have asked other coaches that same question and like me they agree that he is a great blitzer. He really isn' a true Safety though. The guy is almost like an extra LB and he is excellent close to the LOS. When he is deep off the ball though, he is a mess - takes bad angles vs. the run and pass and he struggles in coverage. To answer your question, he is a great player in their defense because Pendergast found a role he can excell in.

Reed allowed more completions, more yards and a higher completion percentage this season, had fewer passes broken up and allowed only two fewer touchdowns than Roy.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Adam gets the numbers from STATS LLC, which is a company that compiles stats for every major sport. They're not publicly available. Sports franchises and media organizations pay large sums to have access. The stats you see on ESPN.com and SI.com and many other sites are provided by STATS LLC. Unfortunately, those sites don't provide access to all of the metrics kept by STATS LLC, such as YPA and completion % for defenders. I don't have Adams posts bookmarked, but those that I'm referring to are well-known. He has something like 5000 posts, so I'm not about to go digging through them. If you dont' belive me, that's fine.

By the way, I said that in 2005 he was a top 5 strong safety, not top 5%. And the number for 06 was somewhere between 33% and 40%. I don't remember the exact number. I've been using top 1/3 as an approximation. But he would almost certainly have ranked higher than top 1/3 if you considered only strong safeties.

We've been over this whole strong safety issue. You accuse me of having opinion based assumptions without supporting evidence yet you refuse to acknowledge the obvious fact that you can't have a Strong and Free in a cover2. You say we didn't always play cover2 and that's a true statement so is the fact that we played a great deal more cover2 last year then anything else. Probably more cover2 in 06 then 05 based on what I saw but I can't prove that with stats so I'll let that go. It would really be much easier for me if you could tell me if RLWs was in the top 33% or in the top 40%. If you go with 1/3, that's a bit cummulous IMO. You figure that there are 68 starting safeties in the NFL. Is this percentage you mention based on only starters? Is there a certain number of plays that qualify you? If so, that number is probably bigger then 68. If he's in the top 33% of the 68, that means he's something in the area of the 22nd or 23rd best safety. If that number is 40%, then he's in the area of the 27th best. I mean, do you see where I'm going here? I do not think it is inappropriate to state ones opinions on things. I have never once asked you to change your opinion or Roy. I have simply stated mine and explained why I believe as such. Foregive me but I am only asking to understand the information you are using to try and nail to the cross with. That is not unreasonable.

 

[theogt]

We've been over this whole strong safety issue. You accuse me of having opinion based assumptions without supporting evidence yet you refuse to acknowledge the obvious fact that you can't have a Strong and Free in a cover2. You say we didn't always play cover2 and that's a true statement so is the fact that we played a great deal more cover2 last year then anything else. Probably more cover2 in 06 then 05 based on what I saw but I can't prove that with stats so I'll let that go. It would really be much easier for me if you could tell me if RLWs was in the top 33% or in the top 40%. Is you go with 1/3, that's a bit cummulous IMO. You figure that there are 68 starting safeties in the NFL. Is this percentage you mention based on only starteres? Is there a certain number of plays that qualify you? If so, that number is probably bigger then 68. If he's in the top 33% of the 68, that means he's something in the area of the 22nd or 23rd best safety. If that number is 40%, then he's in the area of the 27th best. I mean, do you see where I'm going here? I do not think it is inappropriate to state ones opinions on things. I have never once asked you to change your opinion or Roy. I have simply stated mine and explained why I believe as such. Foregive me but I am only asking to understand the information you are using to try and nail to the cross with. That is not unreasonable.

There were 100+ safeties measured. Roy was in the top 1/3-40% of those safeties. That includes free safeties and strong safeties. In includes starters and backups. Like I said, I don't know how the numbers break down if you looked only at starting strong safeties. I'd guess that it puts him somewhere in the top 10, possibly in the top 5. We can't be sure, but I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that.

You can say Roy isn't a strong safety all you want, but he is, regardless of whether we're playing Cover 2 or not. You can stick Bradie James at safety and measure him against other safeties, but James will still be a linebacker, and his performance should only be measured against other linebackers. If a strong safety is playing a free safety position, and his numbers still compare very well against other strong safeties (who aren't playing as free safeties), then that only speaks to how much better of a strong safety he is than others. So your continued insistence on the fact that Roy was playing out of position only goes to fortify that notion that he is better than most.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

There were 100+ safeties measured. Roy was in the top 1/3-40% of those safeties. That includes free safeties and strong safeties. In includes starters and backups. Like I said, I don't know how the numbers break down if you looked only at starting strong safeties. I'd guess that it puts him somewhere in the top 10, possibly in the top 5. We can't be sure, but I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think that.

You can say Roy isn't a strong safety all you want, but he is, regardless of whether we're playing Cover 2 or not. You can stick Bradie James at safety and measure him against other safeties, but James will still be a linebacker, and his performance should only be measured against other linebackers. If a strong safety is playing a free safety position, and his numbers still compare very well against other strong safeties (who aren't playing as free safeties), then that only speaks to how much better of a strong safety he is than others. So your continued insistence on the fact that Roy was playing out of position only goes to fortify that notion that he is better than most.

He should be playing SS but he doesn't. Do you have the numbers to measure his performance against other SS? If so, what are they?

If he is in the top 40%, that would suggest that he is number 27 based on 68 starting safeties. If the number of safeties measured is 100, then he would be number 40. Based on what you are saying in your posts, there is no way he could be number 10 or number 5.

 

[theogt]

He should be playing SS but he doesn't. Do you have the numbers to measure his performance against other SS? If so, what are they?

If he is in the top 40%, that would suggest that he is number 27 based on 68 starting safeties. If the number of safeties measured is 100, then he would be number 40. Based on what you are saying in your posts, there is no way he could be number 10 or number 5.

Did you not read the post?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Did you not read the post?

May I then asume that you can not quantify the statistics you are using and that this is your last word on the subject?

 

[theogt]

May I then asume that you can not quantify the statistics you are using and that this is your last word on the subject?

Just as I assume you'll continue to ignore all the facts thrown at you this entire thread.

You were right in the beginning that some people's minds won't change. But that isn't for lack of a good reason.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Just as I assume you'll continue to ignore all the facts thrown at you this entire thread.

You were right in the beginning that some people's minds won't change. But that isn't for lack of a good reason.

I can't believe you read that article from Mosley and you have the nerve to come here and post anything. Yeah, Roy's great in coverage.

Sure he is.

BTW, you have yet to throw any fact out in this thread. At this point, you are regurgitating facts that you think Adam may have presented and you can't even explain those. This discussion is pointless.

 

[theogt]

I can't believe you read that article from Mosley and you have the nerve to come here and post anything. Yeah, Roy's great in coverage.

Sure he is.

Umm....sorry, but I don't get my opinions straight from Matt Mosley. Maybe you do, and that's fine. I can't say it will get you anywhere, though.

BTW, you have yet to throw any fact out in this thread. At this point, you are regurgitating facts that you think Adam may have presented and you can't even explain those. This discussion is pointless.

I'll take that as, "Yes, I will be ignoring them."

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Umm....sorry, but I don't get my opinions straight from Matt Mosley. Maybe you do, and that's fine. I can't say it will get you anywhere, though.

I'll take that as, "Yes, I will be ignoring them."

No, it's clear that you take yours from sources you can not readily access. Lucky for me, it's not your place to be able to say much about anything.

As for "ignoring them", well, I tried that but you insisted. However, be that as it may, I am happy to consider any info you can provide to help with the questions I asked previously. Your call.

 

[TEK2000]

No, it's clear that you take yours from sources you can not readily access. Lucky for me, it's not your place to be able to say much about anything.

As for "ignoring them", well, I tried that but you insisted. However, be that as it may, I am happy to consider any info you can provide to help with the questions I asked previously. Your call.

Do have a source at all or do you just spin every FACT that is thrown in your face into the "Roy isn't a SS" argument?... which absolutely is USELESS when we're talking about Roy in coverage and comparing him to ALL safeties statistically.

A collection of posts made by AdamJT13 concerning a stats comparison of various big name NFL safeties:

Reed allowed more completions, more yards and a higher completion percentage this season, had fewer passes broken up and allowed only two fewer touchdowns.

According to this same source these are the TD's allowed stats for the following players:

Roy Williams - 8

Ed Reed - 6

Sean Taylor - 11

Adrian Wilson - 6

More from the same source:

According to STATS LLC., here are the number of pass completions allowed by some safeties this season --

Adrian Wilson 39
Brian Dawkins 35
Sean Taylor 29 (prior to Saturday's game)
Ed Reed 28
Troy Polamalu 25 (missed three games)
Roy Williams 24

And more:

Roy finished with more tackles than he had last season, more interceptions, more than twice as many passes broken up and fewer completions allowed. And he had the same number of quarterback pressures -- even though the coaching staff was much more generous awarding pressures last year than this year.

Roy's only problem this year was that he was involved in allowing eight TD passes (according to STATS LLC.) -- some when he was in man-to-man coverage and some when he was helping someone else (or ran into the ref). In several games, he was involved in allowing only one or two catches -- but one was a TD catch, so people think he had a bad game in coverage. If he had allowed more catches but fewer touchdowns, he'd probably get a lot less criticism than he has gotten.

Adrian Wilson allowed far more catches and more yards, and he had fewer interceptions and PDs, but he allowed "only" six touchdowns, so he escapes criticism. Ed Reed allowed more catches and more yards, had fewer PDs, had the same number of interceptions and allowed six touchdowns. Sean Taylor allowed more catches and more yards, had far fewer interceptions and far fewer PDs, AND he led the league in TD catches allowed -- 11. Taylor also led the league BY FAR in missed tackles with 19, the highest total in the 11 years that STATS has been keeping track of them.

So tell me -- why is Roy the only one of those who is heavily criticized in the media?

 

[theogt]

TEK, don't even try. He's already admitted that he ignores anything that doesn't conform to his opinion.

Yet, he objected to my reference to the uninformed fan. Ironic?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Roy Willaims isnt best in a cover 2 scheme can we please end this?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Roy Willaims isnt best in a cover 2 scheme can we please end this?

Thank you Fuzzy. I am all to happy to end this discussion. I never wanted to start it to begin with. I'm sorry my opinion doesn't conform to many others. I can't help that but I do appriciate you keeping it civil.

 

[dboyz]

Thank you Fuzzy. I am all to happy to end this discussion. I never wanted to start it to begin with. I'm sorry my opinion doesn't conform to many others. I can't help that but I do appriciate you keeping it civil.

Tek2000 made some specific points, so maybe you should address those.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Tek2000 made some specific points, so maybe you should address those.

Tek2000 made points that have already been presented and discussed in this thread. Perhaps you should just read the entire thread.

 

[TEK2000]

Roy Willaims isnt best in a cover 2 scheme can we please end this?

No crap... who on earth said he was?