Wade - a soft closer?

[theogt]

We were a dropped ball or a cut off route away from being in the NFCCG. Sometimes the ball bounces your way and sometimes it doesn't. Just ask Indy. Last year the ball bounced their way and they got into the Super Bowl. This year it literally doesn't (tipped passes turn into INTs) and they're one and out.

As for IR, dude got torn a new one in this thread.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

We were a dropped ball or a cut off route away from being in the NFCCG. Sometimes the ball bounces your way and sometimes it doesn't. Just ask Indy. Last year the ball bounced their way and they got into the Super Bowl. This year it literally doesn't (tipped passes turn into INTs) and they're one and out.

As for IR, dude got torn a new one in this thread.

For no reason.

It's strange that it just keeps happening to the boys.

 

[SuspectCorner]

One thing that CAN'T be argued: this ongoing trend of late-season fades and failures is adding to frustration levels around here.

Give us just one... just one stinkin' playoff win - please!

 

[Maikeru-sama]

Wade Phillips just completed his 6th complete season as a head coach. Is there a trend here?

Year 1 - Started 7-4, ended 2-4
Year 2 - Started 7-6, ended 0-3
Year 3 - Started 7-4, ended 3-3
Year 4 - Started 7-3, ended 4-3
Year 5 - Started 7-4, ended 1-4
Year 6 - Started 12-1, ended 1-3

0-4 in the playoffs.

Is this a coach that can put the whip to the horse on the stretch run?

This thread serves as an example of why I am so perplexed that some individuals continue to focus on the coaching staff, with regards to fixing the overall problem this team has.

The contention of some of these individuals is that the atmosphere was too relaxed, therefore insinuating that the inmates are running the asylum.

I ask you, wasn't the atmosphere the exact opposite last year under Bill Parcells? Did he not keep the players on edge week after week? Wasn't Bill Parcells' tactics predicated on fear and intimidation?

So when you dissect the two regimes, you have two polar opposites when observing how they interacted with their players. Furthermore, even though their coaching styles were totally different, you still got similar results.

Based on this observation, one really is compelled to look at the players and their attitudes as the real problem as opposed to the Coaching Staff.

 

[InmanRoshi]

As for IR, dude got torn a new one in this thread.

Not the first time.

You should have seen the way I was roasted when I was one of the first to have the audacity to question Roy Williams when everyone else was building golden shrines to him in their backyards. At that time, to say things that even the staunchest Roy apologist today will freely admit like "I don't know if Roy is that great of a cover safety" was nothing short of blasphemy. Even better, when I was the first one to suggest that Julius Jones seems extremely limited and leaves a lot of yards on the field when everyone was buying their #21 jerseys and likening him to Tony Dorsett. Now all the cool kids are doing it. I just speak what I see and what I think, I've been right and I've been wrong, but I don't really care if it makes other people uncomfortable or if they don't want to think about it.

People personally attack me, even though I just stick to football, but I don't take it personally because I know the First Order of the White Knights of Wade will be the first ones to kick dirt on him when/if he's fired next year, if it means they can use his banishment for the #1 Reason Why 2009 Won't Suck to help them get through night next offseason.

Back to the original point, I share the same concerns as YoMick. I think we have a group of guys who don't have a sense of urgency, who aren't self disciplined. I wonder if this collection of personalities doesn't start to lose it's focus as the season wears on and the grind starts to take it's toll. When it gets harder to get out of bed in the morning and all the practices and meetings start to get old. When it stops being as fun and fresh as it was earlier in the year. It becomes like a tedious job, and you want to get away to Cabo for a few days. Then the playoffs start and when things are supposed to get exciting again they've lost their momentum and their swagger. This combined with a coach who doesn't want to put the whip to the horse down the stretch bothers me a lot. People think Wade says one thing to the media but is total hardass behind closed doors. I don't think Wade is a duplicitous kind of guy. I think what you see is what you get, and I think he's proud of that. It's not a bad human trait. So then the question is WHO? Who is going to be the guy on this team to push this team through the "dog days" so they don't come into the playoffs flat?

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

The contention of some of these individuals is that the atmosphere was too relaxed, therefore insinuating that the inmates are running the asylum.

I ask you, wasn't the atmosphere the exact opposite last year under Bill Parcells? Did he not keep the players on edge week after week? Wasn't Bill Parcells' tactics predicated on fear and intimidation?

So when you dissect the two regimes, you have two polar opposites when observing how they interacted with their players. Furthermore, even though their coaching styles were totally different, you still got similar results.

Based on this observation, one really is compelled to look at the players and their attitudes as the real problem as opposed to the Coaching Staff.

This is becoming more and more evident. More than the losses the last two years is the fact that the ABOVE quoted keeps happening regardless of who is at the helm.

So.... like alot of us have said.. IT IS ON THE PLAYERS. Only they can really take this team to the next level.

The only thing I hang on Wade which I have mentioned more than once... if the players need to be brought back down to earth... I dont have confidence in him being able to do that. But... I would like to see us give this a go again with much of the same pieces in place as this last season. Yes I still want improvement additions. I would like to see if Wade and company can get this right. He deserves some time.

As for the original point, I share the same concerns as YoMick. I think we have a group of guys who aren't self disciplined and who tend to lose their mental focus as the season wears on combined with a coach who doesn't want to put the whip to the horse down the stretch, and this bothers me a lot. People think Wade says one thing to the media but is total hardass behind closed doors. I don't think Wade is a duplicitous kind of guy. I think what you see is what you get, and I think he's proud of that. It's not a bad human trait.

Agreed. Plus my quote above

 

[theogt]

People personally attack me, even though I just stick to football,

I'm not sure how you could in good conscience follow that statement with the following:

but I don't take it personally because I know the First Order of the White Knights of Wade will be the first ones to kick dirt on him when/if he's fired next year, if it means they can use his banishment for the #1 Reason Why 2009 Won't Suck to help them get through night next offseason.

 

[Boysboy]

Not the first time.

You should have seen the way I was roasted when I was one of the first to have the audacity to question Roy Williams when everyone else was building golden shrines to him in their backyards. At that time, to say things that even the staunchest Roy apologist today will freely admit like "I don't know if Roy is that great of a cover safety" was nothing short of blasphemy. Even better, when I was the first one to suggest that Julius Jones seems extremely limited and leaves a lot of yards on the field when everyone was buying their #21 jerseys and likening him to Tony Dorsett. Now all the cool kids are doing it. I just speak what I see and what I think, I've been right and I've been wrong, but I don't really care if it makes other people uncomfortable or if they don't want to think about it.

People personally attack me, even though I just stick to football, but I don't take it personally because I know the First Order of the White Knights of Wade will be the first ones to kick dirt on him when/if he's fired next year, if it means they can use his banishment for the #1 Reason Why 2009 Won't Suck to help them get through night next offseason.

Back to the original point, I share the same concerns as YoMick. I think we have a group of guys who don't have a sense of urgency, who aren't self disciplined. I wonder if this collection of personalities doesn't start to lose it's focus as the season wears on and the grind starts to take it's toll. When it gets harder to get out of bed in the morning and all the practices and meetings start to get old. When it stops being as fun and fresh as it was earlier in the year. It becomes like a tedious job, and you want to get away to Cabo for a few days. Then the playoffs start and when things are supposed to get exciting again they've lost their momentum and their swagger. This combined with a coach who doesn't want to put the whip to the horse down the stretch bothers me a lot. People think Wade says one thing to the media but is total hardass behind closed doors. I don't think Wade is a duplicitous kind of guy. I think what you see is what you get, and I think he's proud of that. It's not a bad human trait. So then the question is WHO? Who is going to be the guy on this team to push this team through the "dog days" so they don't come into the playoffs flat?

What really gets me is that Wade ISN'T the only HC who has a "laid-back" personality. Look at Andy Reid-he goes as far as treating the franchise player as his own spoiled adopted son, but the Eagles nonetheless know how to kick it in high gear when it counts the most.(Wade, OTOH, doesn't treat TO, or even Romo, like this) Or look at Tony Dungy-he gives Peyton TOO much leeway at times(it costed them the reg season SD game, when Dungy gave into him when Manning wanted to go for it on 4th down, hence ICING Vineterri in the process-something Wade WOULDN'T do with any of his players). But nonetheless, The Colts always kick it into high gear down the stretch.

It's becoming more and more obvious to me-the player personnel is the problem. Wade's knack is that he let's backs off and LET'S HIS PLAYERS hold each other accountable. I don't have a problem with that-Reid does it, Dungy does it, Lovie does it, and even Coughlin is realizing it and doing it more too.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Wow, I almost can't believe what I'm reading. IR has become quite the martyr lately. Every other post is how he was so abused when he professed some truth -- usually that he and only he saw, and of course was the first to tell everyone -- that later came to be.

What do you expect when you post like that? Message boards are like real life. Anyone who repeatedly proclaims how right he was and *****es that he doesn't get the credit he deserves isn't going to get the warmest response from others.

What's the deal, man? Are you all right? Because seriously, I don't remember this much bitterness and complaining when Dave Freaking Campo was coaching us to 5-11.

If you think the players here are the problem, as you just stated above, then why did you go back to Wade's days in Denver and Buffalo?

And if the players are the problem, then why would you blame Wade for a team that was built by Bill Parcells?

And you know what? Even if Wade sucks like you obviously think, what was Jerry supposed to do last offseason when Parcells took a month to tell him he was quitting? It isn't like Jerry fired Parcells. It isn't like Bill Beilichick was available. Seems to me that Jerry did a good job under bad circumstances, which is all anyone can reasonably ask.

Finally, First Ballot Hall of Famer Bill Parcells always said his goal was to coach the team to play to its potential. Who did better at that, Parcells or the fat bubba softie? Were Leonard Davis and Ken Hamlin alone with four more wins?

Meh... Bring back the old levelheaded IR who made insightful and constructive comments. I know he's out there somewhere.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

Wow, I almost can't believe what I'm reading. IR has become quite the martyr lately. Every other post is how he was so abused when he professed some truth -- usually that he and only he saw, and of course was the first to tell everyone -- that later came to be.

What do you expect when you post like that? Message boards are like real life. Anyone who repeatedly proclaims how right he was and *****es that he doesn't get the credit he deserves isn't going to get the warmest response from others.

What's the deal, man? Are you all right? Because seriously, I don't remember this much bitterness and complaining when Dave Freaking Campo was coaching us to 5-11.

If you think the players here are the problem, as you just stated above, then why did you go back to Wade's days in Denver and Buffalo?

And if the players are the problem, then why would you blame Wade for a team that was built by Bill Parcells?

And you know what? Even if Wade sucks like you obviously think, what was Jerry supposed to do last offseason when Parcells took a month to tell him he was quitting? It isn't like Jerry fired Parcells. It isn't like Bill Beilichick was available. Seems to me that Jerry did a good job under bad circumstances, which is all anyone can reasonably ask.

Finally, First Ballot Hall of Famer Bill Parcells always said his goal was to coach the team to play to its potential. Who did better at that, Parcells or the fat bubba softie? Were Leonard Davis and Ken Hamlin alone with four more wins?

Meh... Bring back the old levelheaded IR who made insightful and constructive comments. I know he's out there somewhere.

The guy made a post. That post showed facts. He wasn't the one who brought up Parcells. Every one else did. Why can't any thing be said with out Parcells being mentioned?

I think Phillips did a good job here and I also think Parcells did as well.
Neither have done what every one here hoped. The speculation was Parcells was too gruff now some think Wade was to easy down the stretch. Big deal.

 

[Boysboy]

Wow, I almost can't believe what I'm reading. IR has become quite the martyr lately. Every other post is how he was so abused when he professed some truth -- usually that he and only he saw, and of course was the first to tell everyone -- that later came to be.

What do you expect when you post like that? Message boards are like real life. Anyone who repeatedly proclaims how right he was and *****es that he doesn't get the credit he deserves isn't going to get the warmest response from others.

What's the deal, man? Are you all right? Because seriously, I don't remember this much bitterness and complaining when Dave Freaking Campo was coaching us to 5-11.

If you think the players here are the problem, as you just stated above, then why did you go back to Wade's days in Denver and Buffalo?

And if the players are the problem, then why would you blame Wade for a team that was built by Bill Parcells?

And you know what? Even if Wade sucks like you obviously think, what was Jerry supposed to do last offseason when Parcells took a month to tell him he was quitting? It isn't like Jerry fired Parcells. It isn't like Bill Beilichick was available. Seems to me that Jerry did a good job under bad circumstances, which is all anyone can reasonably ask.

Finally, First Ballot Hall of Famer Bill Parcells always said his goal was to coach the team to play to its potential. Who did better at that, Parcells or the fat bubba softie? Were Leonard Davis and Ken Hamlin alone with four more wins?

Meh... Bring back the old levelheaded IR who made insightful and constructive comments. I know he's out there somewhere.

For one, I could care less what peoples' opinions are-heck, the more different, the better, b/c it brings good discussion.

However-there were MANY holes in Wade's coaching record that were pointed out, and I'll point them out again...

1994 - Elway was INJURED in the last 3 games(when they went winless). What if Romo missed the last month of the season? Would we be winning games with noodle-arm Brad Johnson?

1998 - The Bills won THREE of their LAST 4 games(although IR tried to make it sound like the Bills were nothing more than a .500 club down the stretch). Their lone loss here was to the AFCE Champ Jets.

1999 - The Bills won SIX of their LAST 8 games. Oh, and IR failed to point out that it was RALPH WILSON who forced Phillips to start Rob Johnson over Flutie in that "Music City Miracle" game.

Am I defending Wade? No. Do I hold him accountable for our late season swoon this year? Yes. However-most of the responders on this thread are quite surprised by all the holes IR had in Wade's coaching record.

This is going to be a very interesting offseason. Will we get better player personnel for Wade's schemes? Was Wade REALLY that laid-back, to the point where the players will lose respect for him as time goes on? I don't know-but yet another playoff loss adds to more frustration.

 

[junk]

Probably a combination of coaching and player personalities, but I lean much more towards the players.

The team lacks leaders. Especially vet leaders that have been there and know how to win. There aren't any Irvins, Aikmans, Nortons, Haley or Woodsons among this bunch.

The "great guy" and "team leader", Greg Ellis, didn't even wait for the dust to settle before he starting whining about money and his place on the team again. If he's that insecure, no wonder he folds up when the stakes get high.

Got to find some vet leadership somewhere.

As far as Wade, he is what he is. I think he's a pretty solid Xs and Os guy. I don't think he's a real great head coach, but the team did respond to his approach after the Parcells boot camp.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

I should mention that I do agree with IR, when he feels people should not be attacking him just for formulating an opinion that is based purely on football. It goes without saying that Cowboyszone is a football forum and this place would fast become a ghost town if football opinions were met with personal attacks 100% of the time.

However, I will admit I didn't read through the plethora of posts in this thread, so I don't really know what the context of the attack was, assuming there was one.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

What's the deal, man? Are you all right? Because seriously, I don't remember this much bitterness and complaining when Dave Freaking Campo was coaching us to 5-11.

Soley speaking for myself, my expectations during the Dave Campo years are not even close to what they are in 2007. This team featured 12 Pro Bowlers, 4 All Pros, a Comeback player of the year, the #1 Seed and Homefield Advantage throughout the Playoffs. Furthermore, we were also defeated by a club that we flatout whipped on two separate occasions and beat the two franchises playing in the NFCCG by double digits.

Suffice it to say, we are fast approaching the 7 day anniversary of one of the most embarrsing loses in Club history, so it is not suprising that some people are still using this forum to vent their frustrations.

 

[Boysboy]

Probably a combination of coaching and player personalities, but I lean much more towards the players.

The team lacks leaders. Especially vet leaders that have been there and know how to win. There aren't any Irvins, Aikmans, Nortons, Haley or Woodsons among this bunch.

The "great guy" and "team leader", Greg Ellis, didn't even wait for the dust to settle before he starting whining about money and his place on the team again. If he's that insecure, no wonder he folds up when the stakes get high.

This was my beef with Tuna's drafting abilities...he went after alot of "Yes ma'am, No ma'am" guys.(i.e. This pretty much summed up "Parcells guys")

He's always been a great coach, without a doubt. However, in his previous stints...George Young bought the groceries in NYFG, Bob Kraft and the Pats' ownership didn't give Tuna a whole lot of leverage in buying the groceries(which is why he bolted), and he all but INHERITED the quality player personnel in NYFJ(that team just needed a COACH).

 

[Maikeru-sama]

This was my beef with Tuna's drafting abilities...he went after alot of "Yes ma'am, No ma'am" guys.(i.e. This pretty much summed up "Parcells guys")

He's always been a great coach, without a doubt. However, in his previous stints...George Young bought the groceries in NYFG, Bob Kraft and the Pats' ownership didn't give Tuna a whole lot of leverage in buying the groceries(which is why he bolted), and he all but INHERITED the quality player personnel in NYFJ(that team just needed a COACH).

Hmmmm (as Zrinkill likes to say : )...just looking at Demarcus Ware and how he carries himself, he definately seems like a "Yes ma'am/No ma'am" kind of guy. Terence Newman seems to fit that profile as well.

You don't have a problem with either of them do you?

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Soley speaking for myself, my expectations during the Dave Campo years are not even close to what they are in 2007. This team featured 12 Pro Bowlers, 4 All Pros, a Comeback player of the year, the #1 Seed and Homefield Advantage throughout the Playoffs. Furthermore, we were also defeated by a club that we flatout whipped on two separate occasions and beat the two franchises playing in the NFCCG by double digits.

Sure, expectations are higher. But what's really a worse situation, having a good team that gets upset in the playoffs, or being in the total ditch while arguing about losers like Quincy and Hutch?

And come on, a lot of those Pro Bowlers were in the Pro Bowl because we did win and because we're the Dallas Cowboys. We all know that. Several of the same players having the same years for, say, the Cardinals wouldn't have made it this year.

In hindsight, it would have been better for us to start 4-4 or 5-5 before sneaking in as a wildcard. Then people's expectations wouldn't have been too high, and we could have played a worse team in the first round.

 

[windward]

The guy made a post. That post showed facts. He wasn't the one who brought up Parcells. Every one else did. Why can't any thing be said with out Parcells being mentioned?

I think Phillips did a good job here and I also think Parcells did as well.
Neither have done what every one here hoped. The speculation was Parcells was too gruff now some think Wade was to easy down the stretch. Big deal.

He was "bashed" by me because his so-called facts were a bit skewed. His original premise was that Wade's teams always fade down the stretch and implied that this trend would continue. First off, Wade's teams did not fade down the stretch in 1998 or 1999( He just arbitrarily grabbed a varying sample of games to prove his point)

Second off, I gave an example that past results did not unilaterally indicate future results (I used Norv, could of used Belichick's first five seasons in as a HC or someone else it doesn't matter)

Nothing to do with Parcells, but everything to do with a willingness to bash Wade at every opportunity

Am I, as IR so beautifully put it, a member of the First Order of the White Knights of Wade? Of course not. I just think it's unfair to castigate a man for a 13-4 season in his first year on the job. This team is set up in the next few years(at least) to compete for championships and Super Bowls. If Wade cannot get us to that level than he probably will need to be let go.

Until then I will not kick dirt prematurely on the man.

 

[superpunk]

In hindsight, it would have been better for us to start 4-4 or 5-5 before sneaking in as a wildcard. Then people's expectations wouldn't have been too high, and we could have played a worse team in the first round.

I think it would have been better to maintain a high level of performance down the stretch, and beat a Giants team that we were vastly more talented than.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

I love how you're arbitrarily choosing a different number of games each year to skew the results.

Wade has a VERY good team here with Dallas, and he led a formerly 9-7 team to a 13-3 record.

Can we please let up on him? It's only been his first season. Give him a break.

Had Wade gotten to 4-0 in the playoffs, I would agree with you we give Wade "We're Fine" Phillips a break.

But I guess you are in the camp that wants Jerra to let him go to 0-5 in the playoffs.

Wade is soft. You can tell by his body language. His shrugs. His "We're Fine" comments in the face of a late season swoon.

Wade is probably a very decent man.
But as a motivator he is no Jimma Johnson.
Now, luckily we can look forward to 2009 with a real coach in place.