We dont use Owens the right way

[wileedog]

Wow... ok so you need me to explain from 50,000 feet. Obviously you dont run it over and over to the point where they could jump the route... if you are more creative with the rest of the gameplan they wont know whats coming....

We *are* more creative with the rest of the gameplan.

THAT'S WHY WHEN WE RAN THE SLANT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SURE TD IT WAS WIDE OPEN

What more exactly do you want from the coaches?

 

[khiladi]

And I've said over and over that Bill did a terrible job coaching in NO.

I don't agree he has done so all season, yet you latch on to this NO game like its the end all be all defining moment of his career. I bet you couldn't be happier after the game was over so you could run here and proclaim your victory that "see, Bill really is a bad coach!!!" despite the fact that I haven't seen a single post like this over the past 6 weeks when we were winning every game.

Where was the brilliant dissection of the horror of a Bill Parcells coached team after the Colts game? Or even the Giants game?

Your latching onto to TO like he's the problem in Dallas, when our offense has imporved with him... production goes up with TO, despite all these 'drops'...

The Giants game? The defense got thrashed in the Giants game.. I was all over the defense on that game... they gave Eli Manning all day to throw after he was on the verge of a collapse.. After all the smack-talk by Shockey and Plaxico, and the Parcells references to the quotes of Shockey, we let them dominate the game from the Giants offense side of the ball... Our cover 2 let Tiki Barber run 40 yards on a simply route over the middle because of our conservative bend-don't-break defense in the fourth quarter... we were lucky we got the ball LAST... the same thing happened in the Commanders game, when Cooley scored... It is NO COINCIDENCE that even in the Commanders game Cooley broke free, similar to Bush and Tiki for like a 50 yard TD...

Parcells plays SCARED... You would wonder with all this alleged motivation from Shockey, they end up playing so paranoid against the deep pass, that Shockey scored 2 TDs if I remember correctly, and Plaxico one, in a crucial 4th quarter drive. But I guess that is the 'player's not executing'.


And TO was running not just GO routes in the Giants game.. he also made key first down receptions that sutained drives in the 4th quarter...

we have 4 years of Bill Parcells, his drafting, and a change in defensive philosophy to bring some alleged change, and what happens... we have te worst defensive performance in history at Texas Stadium... it was also the STUBBORNESS of Bill that took so long to change from Bledsoe to Romo...

 

[khiladi]

We have been throwing slants to TO ever since Romo took over. We didn't do it against NO and I don't know why (but then I don't know why we didn't do a lot of things against NO), but we have been throwing them this year, and no he hasn't come particularly close to breaking one of them yet.

So we didn't throw them to TO in NO... Interesting how the story is changing...

The point is there is no advantage to going over the middle vs. the sideline. Where did most of the throws that Bush killed us on go, middle or sideline? What play does Washington run to death with their playmaker Moss? WR screen on the sideline.

Dude... you can't be serious... They threw to the flats, because it is the LINEBACKERS responsibility to cover the flats on DEFENSE... They have to come from FAR WAY, so your OUT-RUNNING a pursuing linebacker. The situation of a CB is different, where he is playing RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE WR. Ask any CB what he would prefer to cover... A WR lined up in the SLOT, or a WR lined up at the sideline?

You really can't be this stupid....

BUt if you beat that CB the only guy between you and the endzone is the safety. In the middle of the field you have 2 safeties who can get to, a bunch of LBers who are in coverage, and everyone else's CBs. To think you can only break a quick pass for a large gain through the middle is beyond ignorant.

Dude, your argument is flat out ********. When did I say that one can ONLY break a quick pass for a large gain through the middle. What I stated is that it is MUCH LESS LIKELY FROM THE SIDELINE. This isn't a point that can be disputed. Your working with LESS SPACE. The CB just has to force you outside to prevent a big plat. In the middle, there is WAY MORE SPACE to operate even with two safeties, which BTW may not be in the play because you've run a diversion. You also run the risk of an interception on a screan pass, because the ball takes so long to get to the sideline. If the CB breaks a little too late, he is still in a position to defend the play because of the sideline.

Dude... stop talking about absolutes... you'll only be arguing with yourself..

As opposed to your fantasy land, where the sideline magically jumps out to tackle people.

LMAO... This is so ********...

So 6 guys in coverage on 2 receivers means less people will be around the ball carrier when they catch it as opposed to 7 on 5?

Another genius.

It means that there is MORE ROOM TO OPERATE.. It depends on the spacing in the play Mr. Genius...

TO didn't have a borderline #1 WR lining up opposite him in philly.

He didn;t have a pro bowl TE.

And yet, Philly made the Superbowl without a number one WR next to TO, and he didn't have a pro-bowl tight-end... What are you arguing? I didn't want TO to be brought in to be a possession receiver.

He didn't have a legitimate running game.

You think Westbrook isn't a legitimate running back. You do realize that when Philly went on it's losing streak the next year, Michael Westbrook was not playing because he was injured.

The only thing that took the focus off TO in Philly was Westbrook.

But he's not legitimate?

We have more weapons. We had a old, slow retread at QB for half a season who fixated on Glenn and didn't throw said inside slant very well.

TO's numbers are right where they should be.

If that is the point, than why the hell are you whining about TO if they are right where they should be?

Dude.. what are you arguing? I stated TO's number are the same except in TDs and first downs... I brought stats to point this out.. The key stat I was talking about is he has more first downs in one less game with DC, and 5 or 6 more TDs with Philly. I'd rather have 5 or 6 more TDs, and so would you... I stated TO is being used primarily as a POSSESSION receiver...

That's why you and everybody else is complaining he lost a step... I am arguing that we are not using him properly...

The only thing I'm arguing is that all he gets is sideline passes, (which I don't agree is a limiting factor unless its an out), or decoy plays. I just don't agree with that at all. He has run a myriad of different routes in different situations and he has been extremely productive in an offense that has a lot of weapons and a run-first coach. I really do think we've done a good job with him since Romo took over.

Am I arguing that is ALL HE GETS... I said he gets way too many... I said he is being used as a decoy way too much... He is being used primarily as a possession receiver..

 

[ilovejerry]

Why dont we just hang him,

 

[wileedog]

Your latching onto to TO like he's the problem in Dallas, when our offense has imporved with him... production goes up with TO, despite all these 'drops'...

Find one post, anywhere, where I said TO was a problem. Where I said he has slowed down, or is not worth the money or aggrevation.

Go ahead, I'll wait.







Couldn't do it, could ya?

The Giants game? blah blah blah

Parcells plays SCARED...

Yawn.

He plays the exact same defensive philosophies he played with the Giants, with the Pats and with the Jets, all strong defensive teams.

You figure out what's different now.

And TO was running not just GO routes in the Giants game.. he also made key first down receptions that sutained drives in the 4th quarter...

How could this happen if we are not using him correctly? In our unimaginative, uncreative offense we had key first down receptions which sustained drives in the 4th quarter? Inconceivable!

we have 4 years of Bill Parcells, his drafting, and a change in defensive philosophy to bring some alleged change, and what happens... we have te worst defensive performance in history at Texas Stadium...

Coming off 6 weeks when we were 5-1, and a dumb blocked field goal away from 6-0. Oh wait, I bet the field goal was his fault too, we weren't using Columbo correctly.

it was also the STUBBORNESS of Bill that took so long to change from Bledsoe to Romo...

Because every head coach in the league is just jumping at the chance to bench a 13 year former pro-bowl vet for an undrafted free agent who had never thrown a regular season pass.

Be happy he made the switch at all, Gibbs in Washington waited 4 weeks too late, probably Shanahan too.

 

[wileedog]

So we didn't throw them to TO in NO... Interesting how the story is changing...

Again, point out where I said we did it in NO.

I said we have been doing it over the course of the season, particularly since Romo took over.

NO was an off game all around.

Dude... you can't be serious... They threw to the flats, because it is the LINEBACKERS responsibility to cover the flats on DEFENSE... They have to come from FAR WAY, so your OUT-RUNNING a pursuing linebacker. The situation of a CB is different, where he is playing RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE WR. Ask any CB what he would prefer to cover... A WR lined up in the SLOT, or a WR lined up at the sideline?

You really can't be this stupid....

But the sideline! Less room! You can't break tackles when you get close to the sideline!

Dude, your argument is flat out ********. When did I say that one can ONLY break a quick pass for a large gain through the middle. What I stated is that it is MUCH LESS LIKELY FROM THE SIDELINE. This isn't a point that can be disputed. Your working with LESS SPACE. The CB just has to force you outside to prevent a big plat. In the middle, there is WAY MORE SPACE to operate even with two safeties, which BTW may not be in the play because you've run a diversion. You also run the risk of an interception on a screan pass, because the ball takes so long to get to the sideline. If the CB breaks a little too late, he is still in a position to defend the play because of the sideline.

Sideline - Less space. Less defenders.

Middle - More space, more defenders.

Is this really that hard to grasp?

Dude... stop talking about absolutes... you'll only be arguing with yourself..

I should be so lucky.

It means that there is MORE ROOM TO OPERATE.. It depends on the spacing in the play Mr. Genius...

I means MORE DEFENDERS TO OPERATE ON. It depends on the design of the play, Mr. Genius.

You think Westbrook isn't a legitimate running back. You do realize that when Philly went on it's losing streak the next year, Michael Westbrook was not playing because he was injured.

Reading comprehension. I said no legitimate running game. I also went on to say Westbrook was the only other legitmate threat.

Every year Reid is criticized because he runs the ball the least of any team in the league. Westbrook is great, but they are a pass oriented offense, and TO was the key to it when he was there.

If that is the point, than why the hell are you whining about TO if they are right where they should be?

I'm not, nor have I ever.

Dude.. what are you arguing? I stated TO's number are the same except in TDs and first downs... I brought stats to point this out.. The key stat I was talking about is he has more first downs in one less game with DC, and 5 or 6 more TDs with Philly. I'd rather have 5 or 6 more TDs, and so would you... I stated TO is being used primarily as a POSSESSION receiver...

That's why you and everybody else is complaining he lost a step... I am arguing that we are not using him properly...

I'm arguing that not only has he not lost a step, i think they are using him correctly. In any game not against the Saints, we've given defenses tons of different looks with him. We've used him on slants, screens, crossing routes, drags and posts, and he's been for the most part effective on all of them because no one can game plan his 'tendencies' ( as brought up in another thread).

I'm fine with TO's numbers, I expected them to be less than what he did in Philly for the reasons I outlined - not a WCO offense, more viable options besides TO, a new system for him and a more conservative coach.

I have zero problems with TO or how they are using him, other than the NO game where I agree they didn't get him inolved enough or vary his routes enough. But I disagree with just about everything they did against NO.

Am I arguing that is ALL HE GETS... I said he gets way too many... I said he is being used as a decoy way too much... He is being used primarily as a possession receiver..

Even after the NO debacle we are a top 5 offense. If I told you we would be here in Week 13 before the season started you would have been delirious.

And possession receivers don't get the deep throws that TO usually does.

I think you are blowing the problems with him way, way out of proportion. The offense is fine. The scheme is fine. We crapped the bad one night in a terrible terrible way, and our offensive line can still muck us up at the worst times, but I really don't have a problem with TO or how we use him, and the offense is absolutely better for it. No way does Romo even have the success he has had without TO.

 

[khiladi]

Find one post, anywhere, where I said TO was a problem. Where I said he has slowed down, or is not worth the money or aggrevation.

Go ahead, I'll wait.

Couldn't do it, could ya?


Yawn.

Remember the drop against the Giants in the Red Zone? Inside slant. He catches it he runs in untouched for the score. Oops, that must be Parcells fault, not using him correctly. There have been pleny more of those.

I guess the fact that he drops balls is the reason he's not scroing? There have obviously been plenty of those plays by design, but he keeps dropping the passes that are thrown to him..

He plays the exact same defensive philosophies he played with the Giants, with the Pats and with the Jets, all strong defensive teams.

And Joe Gibbs was an offensive genius in the 80s... And Buddy Ryan also had the greatest defense ever 20 decades ago, and guess what? His defensive scheme is worth garbage nowadays. What is your point?

With the Giants, Parcells had LT, who free-lanced a lot. With the Patriots and Giants, there was also a man by the name of BELICHECK who was the defensive coordinator. Oh... I forgot about him... That guy won three superbowls after Bill Parcells left New England... and his 3-4 defense seems to stop teams pretty well in the 4th quarter unlike ours...

How could this happen if we are not using him correctly? In our unimaginative, uncreative offense we had key first down receptions which sustained drives in the 4th quarter? Inconceivable!

4th quarter... not first quarter...

Coming off 6 weeks when we were 5-1, and a dumb blocked field goal away from 6-0. Oh wait, I bet the field goal was his fault too, we weren't using Columbo correctly.

Let me repeat for you:

The Giants game? The defense got thrashed in the Giants game.. I was all over the defense on that game... they gave Eli Manning all day to throw after he was on the verge of a collapse.. After all the smack-talk by Shockey and Plaxico, and the Parcells references to the quotes of Shockey, we let them dominate the game from the Giants offense side of the ball... Our cover 2 let Tiki Barber run 40 yards on a simply route over the middle because of our conservative bend-don't-break defense in the fourth quarter... we were lucky we got the ball LAST... the same thing happened in the Commanders game, when Cooley scored... It is NO COINCIDENCE that even in the Commanders game Cooley broke free, similar to Bush and Tiki for like a 50 yard TD...

What happened in NO's? Were the Commanders and Giants not attacking the FLATS to move the chains? NO did what these two teams were doing, but a LOT BETTER...

Because every head coach in the league is just jumping at the chance to bench a 13 year former pro-bowl vet for an undrafted free agent who had never thrown a regular season pass.

There are plenty of head coaches who actually play their rookies when they are no longer in playoof contention... especially when that QB is a 40 year old has-been by the name of Vinny Testaverde...

Be happy he made the switch at all, Gibbs in Washington waited 4 weeks too late, probably Shanahan too.

Romo was being prepared for 4 years... Peyton wanted him in last year... not even comparable..

 

[khiladi]

But the sideline! Less room! You can't break tackles when you get close to the sideline!

We are talking about WR's next to the sideline and spacing between a CB, and your talking about linebackers trying to run after a RB from the middle of the field because the RB took to the sideline?

Your arguing for the sake of arguing...

Sideline - Less space. Less defenders.

Middle - More space, more defenders.

Is this really that hard to grasp?

Sideline... 100 yards long... no space on the sides... WR can run only upwards and to the opposite side... but the CB usually corners that off.. by the time TO breaks that, if he does, you already have coverage coming towards him to help out...

Middle of the field... 53 yards long wide... 26 yards from the middle on BOTH SIDES... 100 yards long... WR can run upwards and either right or left...
Way more AREA to cover...

I means MORE DEFENDERS TO OPERATE ON. It depends on the design of the play, Mr. Genius.

Oh, you mean when designing plays the coaches don't take into account SPACING?

Reading comprehension. I said no legitimate running game. I also went on to say Westbrook was the only other legitmate threat.

Every year Reid is criticized because he runs the ball the least of any team in the league. Westbrook is great, but they are a pass oriented offense, and TO was the key to it when he was there.

That does not mean Westbrook is not a legitimate runner. Reid was BLASTED because he was not using Westbrook to run the ball. He was using him prmarily as a receiver. Everybody knows Westbrook can run... If they established the run more, TO would probably have had even bigger numbers...

Even after the NO debacle we are a top 5 offense. If I told you we would be here in Week 13 before the season started you would have been delirious.

First of all, a lot of our yardage came against garbage teams. when Bledsoe was playing. 3 of TO's TDs were against Tennesee, and one of them was a crappy throw into double coverage by Bledsoe... the games in which we scored a lot of points were against teams like Arizona and Tenessee.... the one TD he had last night was a forced throw that was pure luck...

Are you serious? I thought we would explode on offense this season... We had TO, Glenn, and Witten... We had Jones and Barber... I expected only big numbers from this offense... Bledsoe was destroying this team... and Parcells stubborness is what allowed it to happen...

I think you are blowing the problems with him way, way out of proportion. The offense is fine. The scheme is fine. We crapped the bad one night in a terrible terrible way, and our offensive line can still muck us up at the worst times, but I really don't have a problem with TO or how we use him, and the offense is absolutely better for it. No way does Romo even have the success he has had without TO.

Dude... it is only in your imagination that I am blowing this 'way out of proportion'... I am saying TO is not being used correctly.. I want him to get the ball early... I want him to score... I have been saying TO has dramatically imporved this offense... I just don't think he is being used to his abilities...

 

[wileedog]

I guess the fact that he drops balls is the reason he's not scroing? There have obviously been plenty of those plays by design, but he keeps dropping the passes that are thrown to him..

He has 9 TDs. There are two balls I can think of off the top of my head (vs. Wash & NY) where he dropped sure TDs, I'm pretty sure there are more. There was the Jacksonville game when he got wide, wide open and Bledsoe over threw him.

Between drops and Bledsoe that is a minimum of 12 TDs he should have. I'm sure there are more. This would put him at least 2 TDs over the current league leaders among WRs.

And this on a team where the 2nd team RB has 11 TDs and the #2 WR has 825 yards and 6TDs.

I'm really, really failing to see what problems anyone is having with TO or how we are using him, other than misguided expectations.

And Joe Gibbs was an offensive genius in the 80s... And Buddy Ryan also had the greatest defense ever 20 decades ago, and guess what? His defensive scheme is worth garbage nowadays. What is your point?

So your point is that the 3-4 is outdated?

Okay...

With the Giants, Parcells had LT, who free-lanced a lot.

And if we had LT we would be having a lot less of these discussion. Ware's a nice player, but he's not LT.

With the Patriots and Giants, there was also a man by the name of BELICHECK who was the defensive coordinator. Oh... I forgot about him... That guy won three superbowls after Bill Parcells left New England.

With the team that Bill built.

He's not doing as well lately without someone there to buy the groceries, is he?

.. and his 3-4 defense seems to stop teams pretty well in the 4th quarter unlike ours...

And they still didn't blitz a lot or utilize half the schemes that Bellichick does now when Bill was HC.

Furthermore, only 3 teams have scored meaningful points on us in the 4th quarter this year, Jax, Washington and NY. We won the NY game and should have won the Wash game anyway.

 

[Aikbach]

What happened to the arsenal of trick plays? i thought they were being saved for a rainy day and it was ironic the New Orleans behaved like a hurricane the other night.

 

[wileedog]

We are talking about WR's next to the sideline and spacing between a CB, and your talking about linebackers trying to run after a RB from the middle of the field because the RB took to the sideline?

Your arguing for the sake of arguing...

And you are pulling semantics.

If there is less room by the sideline to break plays, why would anyone every throw it out there? Why does anyone even have a WR screen in their playbook?

Who cares if its a RB or a WR, put him in a position where he can break one or two tackles and he's gone. I don't think the sideline is necessarily overly detrimental to that idea.

Sideline... 100 yards long... no space on the sides... WR can run only upwards and to the opposite side... but the CB usually corners that off.. by the time TO breaks that, if he does, you already have coverage coming towards him to help out...

Middle of the field... 53 yards long wide... 26 yards from the middle on BOTH SIDES... 100 yards long... WR can run upwards and either right or left...
Way more AREA to cover...

WAY more defenders in a position to cover that area. Its 6 one way half dozen the other depending on the design of the play.

Oh, you mean when designing plays the coaches don't take into account SPACING?

You mean they don't try and clear defenders out on sideline routes so the WR only has 1 or 2 guys to beat?

That does not mean Westbrook is not a legitimate runner. Reid was BLASTED because he was not using Westbrook to run the ball. He was using him prmarily as a receiver. Everybody knows Westbrook can run... If they established the run more, TO would probably have had even bigger numbers...

Maybe. They would have thrown the ball a lot less to him then. Running takes time to extablish and eats up the clock, and when its working most coaches will stick to it more, especially when winning. TO got a lot of catches and yards when games were already decided but Reid couldn't or wouldn't run the ball.

First of all, a lot of our yardage came against garbage teams. when Bledsoe was playing. 3 of TO's TDs were against Tennesee, and one of them was a crappy throw into double coverage by Bledsoe... the games in which we scored a lot of points were against teams like Arizona and Tenessee.... the one TD he had last night was a forced throw that was pure luck...

So the other top offenses in the league aren't putting up big numbers against garbage teams?

NO is the first team to shut us down since Romo took over. We're doing fine. The Saints or Colts don't put up 30 points on good teams every week either.

Are you serious? I thought we would explode on offense this season... We had TO, Glenn, and Witten... We had Jones and Barber... I expected only big numbers from this offense... Bledsoe was destroying this team... and Parcells stubborness is what allowed it to happen...

A *LOT* of people gave Parcells a LOT of grief making the move when he did, including the owner Jerry.

Be happy he did it in time.

Dude... it is only in your imagination that I am blowing this 'way out of proportion'... I am saying TO is not being used correctly.. I want him to get the ball early... I want him to score... I have been saying TO has dramatically imporved this offense... I just don't think he is being used to his abilities...

He would be leading the league in TDs if he could hang on to the ball.

If that's using him incorrectly then I hope they keep using him that way.

 

[khiladi]

He has 9 TDs. There are two balls I can think of off the top of my head (vs. Wash & NY) where he dropped sure TDs, I'm pretty sure there are more. There was the Jacksonville game when he got wide, wide open and Bledsoe over threw him.

He also caught two TDs off the top of my head which should not have been TDs. One of the TDs was against Tennesee in double-coverage which was a horrible throw by Bledsoe into coverage. The other was the TD throw to TO against NO. That should never have been a TD. The 3 TDs of Owens in the Tennesse game, the two were late in the game, when it was already sealed... And Tennesse was a wish-washy team at that time.. He also had a TD late in the Arizon game, when the game was pretty much over... The Washingto play, it was a pass late in the third quarter as well...

TO wasn't angry for no reason after catching the TD pass against NO...

How many TDs has he caught in the first and second quarter?

I'm really, really failing to see what problems anyone is having with TO or how we are using him, other than misguided expectations.

When he catches 4 or 5 passes in the first half, with at least one TD I'll be happy... I want him to be a CENTER-PIECE of our offense EARLY... I want to see him establish a rhythm..

So your point is that the 3-4 is outdated?

Okay...

No, my point is that you can be an effective coach in the 80s and not be one in today's game... Joe Gibbs is a clear example of this, and Bill is becoming one now to... Bellichek seems to be getting pressure on quarterbacks just fine from the 3-4... He adjusts pretty well at half as well... One of my biggest pet peeves about Parcells is the guy does not adjust the game plan... He is way too stubborn...

And if we had LT we would be having a lot less of these discussion. Ware's a nice player, but he's not LT.

LT free-lanced a lot... even Bill Parcells admitted it.. Nobody in their right mind would cut LT....

With the team that Bill built.

He's not doing as well lately without someone there to buy the groceries, is he?

1.

You can be a good GM, and a horrible coach...

I don't dispute that Bill Parcells has added a lot of good talent... I don't dispute the fact that he can evaluate talent generally... I dispute his coaching... I am not a fan of his stubborness...

2.

3 super bowls is damn impressive with any team... and further, New England is still a legitimate contender, and has been since those super bowls... Bellichek is doing pretty well without Bill..

3.

I guess the Jets not getting those three superbowls after Bill left is not because of Bill.... If Bill was still in New England, Bledsoe would still be the quarterback...

And they still didn't blitz a lot or utilize half the schemes that Bellichick does now when Bill was HC.

And guess what... Bellichek's defense is doing pretty well at pressuring the quarterback.. but I guess or players just don't execute Parcell's scheme properly... that always seems to be the problem, according to Parcells, when we lose...

One week, he's giving a chamiponship speech, and the next week he's telling the world that he doesn't think the team is that bad....

Furthermore, only 3 teams have scored meaningful points on us in the 4th quarter this year, Jax, Washington and NY. We won the NY game and should have won the Wash game anyway.

Because we had the ball last...

Don't forget last year as well... Do you really think it should have been that close of a game with Washington? Our vanillah defense gave up HUGE RUNS by Cooley and Tiki... They worked with poor field position and MARCHED DOWN THE FIELD... We got beat by Leftwich, who is going to be traded because of a man by the name of Gerard...