We Doubled Down

[Idgit]

Would you say our season ending 8th ranking of defense was a good representation of the entire season?

And do you believe the season ending offensive ranking was a good representation of this offense ?

We were 17th in terms of points surrendered/defensive series. I’d say that was a good representation of what we saw, though we were very likely trending up in the last four games there, and were much worse in the middle with Lee out.

I believe the offensive ranking was a good representation of the offense missing Tyron. We’d have been significantly more productive with better protection. But that’s normal for everybody. Guys get hurt, and if you don’t have options who can play, it can derail you. But as bad as it was, we still ended up top ten in terms of the rate we’re able to score at. As we very often are.

 

[Idgit]

I don't think this system is good enough to win a championship. You may have a good season, but you can't hide an average to poor defense all the way to the SB. Time of possession ball control offense with little to no turnovers is a luxury, one mistake and it all blows up. The better teams you face the less room for error you have. You need a defense that can sometimes make plays and cause turnovers. I'm hoping we have that soon because it will be less stressful than to pin all hope on the offense alone.

A great defense gets you past Atlanta 10-15 with a goal line stand, yep.

 

[Diehardblues]

We were 17th in terms of points surrendered/defensive series. I’d say that was a good representation of what we saw, though we were very likely trending up in the last four games there, and were much worse in the middle with Lee out.

I believe the offensive ranking was a good representation of the offense missing Tyron. We’d have been significantly more productive with better protection. But that’s normal for everybody. Guys get hurt, and if you don’t have options who can play, it can derail you. But as bad as it was, we still ended up top ten in terms of the rate we’re able to score at. As we very often are.

Does the NFL use points scored as the official stat of rankings?

 

[Idgit]

Does the NFL use points scored as the official stat of rankings?

Don’t think so. Does it matter? Rankings are just a list in order. What matters is what you measure and whether it’s meaningful.

How can you compare the effectiveness of a defense that surrenders 1000 yards in ten series with one who surrendered 1500 in 12 series if you don’t adjust for the number of possessions? Do you care about yards at all when games are decided by points?

Points/series is a better general measure of productivity.

 

[Diehardblues]

Don’t think so. Does it matter? Rankings are just a list in order. What matters is what you measure and whether it’s meaningful.

How can you compare the effectiveness of a defense that surrenders 1000 yards in ten series with one who surrendered 1500 in 12 series if you don’t adjust for the number of possessions? Do you care about yards at all when games are decided by points?

Points/series is a better general measure of productivity.

Of course it matters. That’s the official stat used to rank offenses and defenses overall.

When the NFL ranks teams they use yardage. That’s always been the Bar when measuring the greatest defenses and offenses .

Points scored is just a component of that and can be used as any other contributing stat whether it’s turnovers, etc to support an argument or narrative.

 

[Idgit]

Of course it matters. That’s the official stat used to rank offenses and defenses overall.

When the NFL ranks teams they use yardage. That’s always been the Bar when measuring the greatest defenses and offenses .

Points scored is just a component of that and can be used as any other contributing stat whether it’s turnovers, etc to support an argument or narrative.

I really don’t care what the NFL uses. I only care about measurements that actually measure productivity.

Points aren’t ‘just a component.’ They’re the basis for measuring who wins games. When games are won and lost in yards surrendered, then I’ll care about how the NFL decides to officially sort its lists.

Until then, it’s an artifact of a time when data had to be tabulated manually and the fans didn’t really care as much.

 

[kskboys]

I really don’t care what the NFL uses. I only care about measurements that actually measure productivity.

Points aren’t ‘just a component.’ They’re the basis for measuring who wins games. When games are won and lost in yards surrendered, then I’ll care about how the NFL decides to officially sort its lists.

Until then, it’s an artifact of a time when data had to be tabulated manually and the fans didn’t really care as much.

Games are won and lost in yards surrendered.

 

[Diehardblues]

I really don’t care what the NFL uses. I only care about measurements that actually measure productivity.

Points aren’t ‘just a component.’ They’re the basis for measuring who wins games. When games are won and lost in yards surrendered, then I’ll care about how the NFL decides to officially sort its lists.

Until then, it’s an artifact of a time when data had to be tabulated manually and the fans didn’t really care as much.

If it’s good enough for NFL to make it the official measurement it’s good enough for me.

Otherwise we’ll need to go back thru history reranking some of the greatest defenses and offenses. For what? Because it better represents our opinions and arguments?

 

[Hawkeye19]

I don't think this system is good enough to win a championship. You may have a good season, but you can't hide an average to poor defense all the way to the SB. Time of possession ball control offense with little to no turnovers is a luxury, one mistake and it all blows up. The better teams you face the less room for error you have. You need a defense that can sometimes make plays and cause turnovers. I'm hoping we have that soon because it will be less stressful than to pin all hope on the offense alone.

Good post... I agree. Our defense needs to improve in order for us to win in the postseason. I think the 2018 defense is significantly better than 2016. Better edge rushers, better overall speed and athleticism at LBer, and more talent in the secondary.

The two spots that I am worried about on D are S and DT. We are pretty solid everywhere else.

 

[CPanther95]

Of course it matters. That’s the official stat used to rank offenses and defenses overall.

When the NFL ranks teams they use yardage. That’s always been the Bar when measuring the greatest defenses and offenses .

Points scored is just a component of that and can be used as any other contributing stat whether it’s turnovers, etc to support an argument or narrative.

They use yards, but anyone watching the games knows that Dallas was no where near the #8 defense - just as Pittsburgh was no where near #5.

Both are defenses that have been struggling to rebuild and although improved, have serious holes that prevent them from consistently making key stops at crucial points in the game.

 

[kskboys]

They use yards, but anyone watching the games knows that Dallas was no where near the #8 defense - just as Pittsburgh was no where near #5.

Both are defenses that have been struggling to rebuild and although improved, have serious holes that prevent them from consistently making key stops at crucial points in the game.

No stat is completely accurate as a standalone stat. Yards allowed is closest.

 

[kskboys]

They use yards, but anyone watching the games knows that Dallas was no where near the #8 defense - just as Pittsburgh was no where near #5.

Both are defenses that have been struggling to rebuild and although improved, have serious holes that prevent them from consistently making key stops at crucial points in the game.

Pound it out running games always make D's look better then they are.

 

[Idgit]

Games are won and lost in yards surrendered.

That’s factually untrue. They’re very obviously won and lost on points.

Which is why turnover differential is so important, and why ‘bend, but don’t break’ defenses exist, and why the saying ‘you can’t settle for field goals’ is a thing.

 

[Idgit]

If it’s good enough for NFL to make it the official measurement it’s good enough for me.

Otherwise we’ll need to go back thru history reranking some of the greatest defenses and offenses. For what? Because it better represents our opinions and arguments?

I can live just fine with an inaccurate measurement of defensive productivity being good enough for you.

It only matters to me if we’re debating relative effectiveness, like we were here earlier in the thread.

 

[charron]

I get all the hand-wringing over the state of our WR/TE corps, our lack of depth at DT and S, and maintaining the status quo with Garrett/Linehan. I get it. We definitely have flaws.

But-- IMO, the formula that worked for us in 2016 is still very much in play for us in 2018. Run the ball. Limit turnovers. Control the clock. Wear teams out by the 4th quarter and salt the game away.

Sure-- it's not a sexy new offensive system that's gonna light up the scoreboard every week. It's a formula as old as dirt. But it works. I blame the FO for not addressing S and DT, but I have to give them credit for doubling down on what they do really, really well: run the ball and punch teams in the mouth with a nasty OL. Signing Fleming and drafting Williams was brilliant and really set us up to get back to our brand of football this year.

I'm not under a delusion that this is a SB contender, but I think we will be closer in performance to 2016 than 2017 this year. Win some games, establish your identity, get some swagger back-- and who knows? This team is set to peak late-- will be fun to see how the young guys develop.

Only 1 win away from being a wildcard team last year. Beat a bad Seattle team and were in.

 

[Diehardblues]

That’s factually untrue. They’re very obviously won and lost on points.

Which is why turnover differential is so important, and why ‘bend, but don’t break’ defenses exist, and why the saying ‘you can’t settle for field goals’ is a thing.

Yes, Football is a sum sport . But yards which moves the chains with first downs is what leads to scoring and why total yards are the official measurement used.

There are contributing factors which effect like turnovers and why those are generally considered as the most influential.

 

[JoeKing]

No stat is completely accurate as a standalone stat. Yards allowed is closest.

Actually you are wrong. Scoring points is an absolute standalone stat. No team has ever outscored it's opponent and lost.

 

[Diehardblues]

Actually you are wrong. Scoring points is an absolute standalone stat. No team has ever outscored it's opponent and lost.

Of course not . Scoring points is obviously a contributing noteworthy stat but doesn’t necessarily measure the strengths of teams. If your having to score more points because your defense gives up more then the stat can be skewed. Turnovers skew it as well.

Total yards generally measures teams moving the ball and chains towards the end zone which leads to scoring and why turnovers are generally considered most influential stat.

Unfortunately scoring points is not as critical of stat because if your not controlling the ball moving the chains you probably are allowing the opposing team more opportunities to do so.

In Fantasy era we are seeing more fans use scoring points as a stat they see as more impactful or determining the productivity and effectiveness of an offense or defense which while it is a noteworthy factor doesn’t totally reflect and why the NFL doesn’t use it as official measurement in ranking teams.


IMO the Cowboys ranked top 10 in scoring points is misleading evaluation when we were 14th in total yards and 26th in passing yards. Using the points scored appears an attempt to use those stats to support an argument or narrative the offense was more productive and effective than the yards reveal.

 

[JoeKing]

Of course not . Scoring points is obviously a contributing noteworthy stat but doesn’t necessarily measure the strengths of teams. If your having to score more points because your defense gives up more then the stat can be skewed. Turnovers skew it as well.

Total yards generally measures teams moving the ball and chains towards the end zone which leads to scoring and why turnovers are generally considered most influential stat.

Unfortunately scoring points is not as critical of stat because if your not controlling the ball moving the chains you probably are allowing the opposing team more opportunities to do so.

In Fantasy era we are seeing more fans use scoring points as a stat they see as more impactful or determining the productivity and effectiveness of an offense or defense which while it is a noteworthy factor doesn’t totally reflect and why the NFL doesn’t use it as official measurement in ranking teams.


IMO the Cowboys ranked top 10 in scoring points is misleading evaluation when we were 14th in total yards and 26th in passing yards. Using the points scored appears an attempt to use those stats to support an argument or narrative the offense was more productive and effective not a part of the problem.

Points scored is the ultimate stat. Period, point blank. end of discussion.

 

[Jstopper]

If it’s good enough for NFL to make it the official measurement it’s good enough for me.

Otherwise we’ll need to go back thru history reranking some of the greatest defenses and offenses. For what? Because it better represents our opinions and arguments?

Dude you can give up 600 yards in a game and still win. Give up 60 points and i guarantee you lost. Yards are whatever points are what matter