We Have Great Players - Why Aren't We Great...?

[Hagman]

The right kind of guys matter. We are acquiring them at all levels and the team is becoming bigger than the players. Success will follow.

Bingo. The T.O's, Pacmen and Tanks are being replaced with football players. And they are not being lead by Coach Cupcake who refused to challenge them or hold them accountable. Contrary to what some here think, we DO have a real coach who is building things the right way because he's getting the right people, even if he may did make a strategic mistake or two in his first year.

 

[burmafrd]

The one thing that all the Great Championship Cowboys teams had in common was top O line and D line play.

Nowadays that is more rare; teams can win Championships with average to above average line play; though its noticeable when someone like the Giants have a D line that can just flat out dominate.

Sadly we have had poor to average line play for far too long.

 

[Eskimo]

2009 was the worst I've seen since our vaunted 1995 draft for backups class. But a one year brainfart won't completely destroy the depth of a team.

Look at 2008. A year where we had two first round picks and most walked away from it thinking we did pretty good. Well, let's review it now.

1(22) Felix Jones RB Arkansas
1(25) Mike Jenkins CB South Florida
2(61) Martellus Bennett TE Texas A&M
4(122) Tashard Choice RB Georgia Tech
5(143) Orlando Scandrick CB Boise St.
6(167) Erik Walden OLB Middle Tennessee St.

3 of those 6 players aren't on the team anymore. Both first round picks are good players but I'd argue neither will be with the team after this season. They've both been replaced on the roster already. Leaving only Scandrick remaining from the class. A guy who will remain buried on the depth chart.

How good is that class really? Two first round picks should give you more bang for your buck than that.

I am mostly going to agree with you on this one.

I think the picks of Choice, Scandrick and Walden were all good. They all represented decent value for where they were chosen and 2 of the 3 have started a significant number of games in the NFL which is a good haul for the back part of the draft. If you get decent contributors here you've done well and we found 3 in rounds 4-7.

The problem we had was the first 3 rounds of the draft. Our first 1st found pick was a colossal mistake. How could they spend that pick on a backup RB when they had just given the starter a $45M contract with $15M guaranteed (or whatever it exactly was that Barber got). A first round pick has to be spent on a guy envisioned to become a high quality starter. Felix never represented that for us and has failed to survive when given the opportunity.

Now the second 1st round pick was bang on. Mike Jenkins represented good value here as a CB with elite coverage skills. His biggest problem has been odd lapses in concentration and injuries. He basically played at a Pro Bowl level in 2009 and 2011. The problem with him is injury and the fact that we spent a huge amount on Carr and then spent a high draft pick on Claiborne. We can't afford now to spend huge resources on a 3rd CB so he doesn't have a future here after next year.

The second round pick was also butchered. You can't spend that pick on a backup TE when you have an All-Pro guy at the starter who is in the prime of his career.

Jones totally butchered this draft at the top end and didn't make up for it in the back end. He only got 1.5 starters at a draft where he had two first rounders and that isn't good enough.

 

[birdwells1]

The talent's been overrated. We've been a weak team in the trenches for years and years. We remain weak today, IMO. Until that changes expect to be flabbergasted at the end results every year.

The key to next season, other than staying healthy of course, lies with the play of Livings, Costa/Kowalski/Arkin/Nagy, Bernadeau, Free, Lissemore, Brent, Hatcher, maybe even Crawford.

As they go, we go.

Hey Risen, I'm usually with you on most topics but I'm willing to given Bernadeau and Livings a chance before I rule them out as an upgrade.
The Cowboys obviously seen something in them so sign them as free agents and I don't have the ability to judge the as OG like the scouts do. If anything they should be an upgrade to what we had last year. If last years interior line performance was a "D" then if they could perform to a "C" or "C+" then it should improve our offense's efficiency dramatically.

 

[birdwells1]

I am mostly going to agree with you on this one.

I think the picks of Choice, Scandrick and Walden were all good. They all represented decent value for where they were chosen and 2 of the 3 have started a significant number of games in the NFL which is a good haul for the back part of the draft. If you get decent contributors here you've done well and we found 3 in rounds 4-7.

The problem we had was the first 3 rounds of the draft. Our first 1st found pick was a colossal mistake. How could they spend that pick on a backup RB when they had just given the starter a $45M contract with $15M guaranteed (or whatever it exactly was that Barber got). A first round pick has to be spent on a guy envisioned to become a high quality starter. Felix never represented that for us and has failed to survive when given the opportunity.

Now the second 1st round pick was bang on. Mike Jenkins represented good value here as a CB with elite coverage skills. His biggest problem has been odd lapses in concentration and injuries. He basically played at a Pro Bowl level in 2009 and 2011. The problem with him is injury and the fact that we spent a huge amount on Carr and then spent a high draft pick on Claiborne. We can't afford now to spend huge resources on a 3rd CB so he doesn't have a future here after next year.

The second round pick was also butchered. You can't spend that pick on a backup TE when you have an All-Pro guy at the starter who is in the prime of his career.

Jones totally butchered this draft at the top end and didn't make up for it in the back end. He only got 1.5 starters at a draft where he had two first rounders and that isn't good enough.

I argued this point shortly after the draft, I never believe that you should use a high draft pick on a 1 player position (te,c,qb,rb) that's manned by a pro bowler in his prime they will never see the field long enough to justify that pick. My opinion was met with people strongly defending this draft pick but as of now they have yet to change my mind.

 

[Risen Star]

I argued this point shortly after the draft, I never believe that you should use a high draft pick on a 1 player position (te,c,qb,rb) that's manned by a pro bowler in his prime they will never see the field long enough to justify that pick. My opinion was met with people strongly defending this draft pick but as of now they have yet to change my mind.

I don't have a problem with them taking a RB. In fact, I wanted Felix and I was wrong. They just chose the wrong RB. Chris Johnson was on the board. So was Rashard Mendenhall and Ray Rice.

I'd argue the Barber resigning was the bad decision not looking to draft a RB in the first round that year.

The point of my post was, five years down the road, having only a backup slot cornerback on the roster to show for a draft class that included an extra first round pick is pretty awful.

 

[Risen Star]

Hey Risen, I'm usually with you on most topics but I'm willing to given Bernadeau and Livings a chance before I rule them out as an upgrade.
The Cowboys obviously seen something in them so sign them as free agents and I don't have the ability to judge the as OG like the scouts do. If anything they should be an upgrade to what we had last year. If last years interior line performance was a "D" then if they could perform to a "C" or "C+" then it should improve our offense's efficiency dramatically.

I guess I want a little more than a C or C+ offensive line.

I'm not ruling them out as an upgrade. They are replacing crap. They should be an upgrade. The question is will it be enough of an upgrade? Their entire careers thus far say no.

 

[baj1dallas]

Lack of durability and toughness/physicality. Not from all the players, but some.

 

[Brian_C82]

I don't have a problem with them taking a RB. In fact, I wanted Felix and I was wrong. They just chose the wrong RB. Chris Johnson was on the board. So was Rashard Mendenhall and Ray Rice.

I'd argue the Barber resigning was the bad decision not looking to draft a RB in the first round that year.

The point of my post was, five years down the road, having only a backup slot cornerback on the roster to show for a draft class that included an extra first round pick is pretty awful.

You're right. Everyone we draft should have a 10 year career and make the Pro Bowl. Anything less is awful.

 

[Eskimo]

I don't have a problem with them taking a RB. In fact, I wanted Felix and I was wrong. They just chose the wrong RB. Chris Johnson was on the board. So was Rashard Mendenhall and Ray Rice.

I'd argue the Barber resigning was the bad decision not looking to draft a RB in the first round that year.

The point of my post was, five years down the road, having only a backup slot cornerback on the roster to show for a draft class that included an extra first round pick is pretty awful.

There were two bad decisions: the first was to re-sign Barber to that hellacious contract for a guy who had all of 3 starts and a running style that everyone said could not last and it didn't.

The second bad decision was to draft a non-special 3-down RB in the first round. They just aren't real difference makers anymore and good ones can commonly be found in the second round for starters and 5th round for backups. You don't need to spend a first for a quality starter and you certainly don't need to do so for a backup.

Jones really butchered us in this draft when he swung and miss on Felix and Marty. Then the next year he swung and missed twice with Roy Williams - actually 3 times if you count that extension as a miss in addition to the two prime draft picks given up. Jones needs to be restrained better by those around him - he was bidding against himself for a player that no one else would give up more than a second rounder for.

What would have happened if we spent those 4 wasted picks on the OL and DL. That's two firsts, one second and one third rounder totally wasted.

Thankfully we appear to be handling FA and the draft well. The next thing we need to master is re-signing our young promising players to cap-friendly extensions well before they reach the middle of the final year of their contracts. Now would be a good time to think about Sean Lee in the middle of the year.

 

[Eddie]

We have talent. I think consitency and injuries are the key. If the guys we have can play their best consistently and we dont lose guys to injury then we will have something special.

Yes, we have about 10 very good to great players. That's how we went 7-4.

After that, we have squat. That's why we went 1-4 in December.

The playoff teams have solid depth throughout. When a starter goes down, a solid backup fills in. We don't have that. In fact, we had backups starting.

I think this issue was addressed this year. I'm hoping we're now about 20 solid players with good players backing them up. That's what's gonna get us past December.

 

[HoosierCowboy]

I'll say this for about the tenth time on various threads--we have had maybe a dozen good players. That's not enough--hopefully we've added to that number in the off-season.

 

[28 Joker]

One of the real strengths of the 2008 draft was RB. Five RBs went in round 1. Rick Gosselin had Felix Jones rated 20th or 21st in his top 100 if I recall correctly. The value at 22 was at RB, not OL or DL. It's a two back league, and the Cowboys value the RB position even if some fans don't. (By the way Felix Jones has pass protected for Tony Romo at a high level, too.) The Titans were going to take Jones at 22. The Cardinals were seriously considering Felix at 16. Three RBs flew off the board in a row (Jones, Mendenhall, and Johnson). Charles fell to round 2 due to fumbling issues at Texas. There have been things to be critical of for sure, but I think it is absolutely ludicrous to use Felix Jones to hit Jerry Jones over the head with. Go ahead and swing. You are swinging at air and way over-reaching in your agendas. Jones was Garrett's call, and Jones helped Garrett secure the Dallas job in 2010.

Felix Jones has done absolutely everything the Cowboys have asked him to do during his four seasons in Dallas. Jones has rushed the football 488 times and tallied 2543 rushing yards in 50 games (including 2 playoff games). Jones' YPC (5.21) is second to only Jamaal Charles in the 2008 draft class. Again, let's compare Jones and Charles, because they are similar types of players:

Jamaal Charles

Rushing: 508-3,109 (6.12) (LG 80)

Receiving: 117-1,046 (8.94) (LG 75)

Kick Return: 51-1,246 (24.4) (LG 97)

Total Yards from Scrimmage: 4155

All-Purpose Yards: 5401

Average rushes per Game: 10

Rushing Touchdowns: 13

Games: 50


Felix Jones

Rushing: 488-2,543 (5.21) (LG 73)

Receiving: 102-800 (7.8) (LG 71)

Kick Returns: 53-1,298 (24.5) (LG 98)

Total Yards from Scrimmage: 3,343

All-Purpose Yards: 4,641

Average Rushes per Game: 10

Rushing Touchdowns: 9

Games: 50

Felix Jones has accumulated 81.7% of Charles' rushing yards.

Felix Jones has accumulated 76.4% of Charles' receiving yards.

Felix Jones has accumulated 80.4% of Charles' total yards from scrimmage.

Felix Jones has accumulated 85.9% of Charles' All-Purpose yards.

By the way, Felix Jones saw the absolute worst of the Dallas run blocking in 2010 and in the early part of the 2011 season. Dallas' 2010 offensive line was horrendous, especially on Dallas' horrendous right side. Nevertheless, Jones still put up 800 rushing yards (185 carries; 4.3 YPC). Included in those 800 rushing yards is Jones' 112-498 (4.44 YPC) during the last 8 games of 2010. Jones touched the football 233 times and tallied 1250 total yards from scrimmage. Furthermore, Charles plays on a running team that lacks the "star power" of Dallas' passing game. Charles' line was far superior in 2010, too. Dallas' 2010 line was flat out old and done.

Is it Felix Jones' fault that he was only handed the football 6-36 (6.0 YPC) in a loss at Arizona last year? Jones hung a 16-77 (4.8 YPC) game on Arizona in 2010, and he did that with a done offensive line. Is that Jones' fault?

During the past 3 seasons, Felix Jones has been given the opportunity to rush the football (in the double digits) 22 times. That includes 2 playoff games in 2009. Jones averaged 14.3 rushes per game in those 22 games. Here are those stats:

315-1593 (5.05 YPC)

Again, when the Cowboys have fed Felix Jones the rock, in the double digits, Jones has delivered the goods to the Cowboys. Again, Felix Jones has proven to be extremely explosive and extremely productive in the 14-16 rush range during the past three seasons. Jones' YPC in the double digits mirrors his career regular season YPC of 5.1 YPC.

Finally, if the FB executes just a halfway decent trap block on Jason Pierre-Paul last year (1st Giants game), your Dallas Cowboys are going to be NFC East Champions. Free and Austin had their blocks on the second level, and there is no telling how far Jones runs on that 2nd down and 5 zone bend. The effort by the FB was pathetic with the NFC East on the line.

Just who was that destroying the Philadelphia Eagles in the 2009 wildcard game and in the defacto NFC East title game in 2009?

Who was that?

 

[Brian_C82]

It's easy to have a great YPC when you aren't getting many touches. Jones is nothing special.

 

[DallasEast]

It's easy to have a great YPC when you aren't getting many touches. Jones is nothing special.

To continue your line of logic, the "few" runs which Felix Jones has broken off have been [well] above average. Should that be held negatively against him as a running back?

 

[jnday]

One of the real strengths of the 2008 draft was RB. Five RBs went in round 1. Rick Gosselin had Felix Jones rated 20th or 21st in his top 100 if I recall correctly. The value at 22 was at RB, not OL or DL. It's a two back league, and the Cowboys value the RB position even if some fans don't. (By the way Felix Jones has pass protected for Tony Romo at a high level, too.) The Titans were going to take Jones at 22. The Cardinals were seriously considering Felix at 16. Three RBs flew off the board in a row (Jones, Mendenhall, and Johnson). Charles fell to round 2 due to fumbling issues at Texas. There have been things to be critical of for sure, but I think it is absolutely ludicrous to use Felix Jones to hit Jerry Jones over the head with. Go ahead and swing. You are swinging at air and way over-reaching in your agendas. Jones was Garrett's call, and Jones helped Garrett secure the Dallas job in 2010.

Felix Jones has done absolutely everything the Cowboys have asked him to do during his four seasons in Dallas. Jones has rushed the football 488 times and tallied 2543 rushing yards in 50 games (including 2 playoff games). Jones' YPC (5.21) is second to only Jamaal Charles in the 2008 draft class. Again, let's compare Jones and Charles, because they are similar types of players:

Jamaal Charles

Rushing: 508-3,109 (6.12) (LG 80)

Receiving: 117-1,046 (8.94) (LG 75)

Kick Return: 51-1,246 (24.4) (LG 97)

Total Yards from Scrimmage: 4155

All-Purpose Yards: 5401

Average rushes per Game: 10

Rushing Touchdowns: 13

Games: 50


Felix Jones

Rushing: 488-2,543 (5.21) (LG 73)

Receiving: 102-800 (7.8) (LG 71)

Kick Returns: 53-1,298 (24.5) (LG 98)

Total Yards from Scrimmage: 3,343

All-Purpose Yards: 4,641

Average Rushes per Game: 10

Rushing Touchdowns: 9

Games: 50

Felix Jones has accumulated 81.7% of Charles' rushing yards.

Felix Jones has accumulated 76.4% of Charles' receiving yards.

Felix Jones has accumulated 80.4% of Charles' total yards from scrimmage.

Felix Jones has accumulated 85.9% of Charles' All-Purpose yards.

By the way, Felix Jones saw the absolute worst of the Dallas run blocking in 2010 and in the early part of the 2011 season. Dallas' 2010 offensive line was horrendous, especially on Dallas' horrendous right side. Nevertheless, Jones still put up 800 rushing yards (185 carries; 4.3 YPC). Included in those 800 rushing yards is Jones' 112-498 (4.44 YPC) during the last 8 games of 2010. Jones touched the football 233 times and tallied 1250 total yards from scrimmage. Furthermore, Charles plays on a running team that lacks the "star power" of Dallas' passing game. Charles' line was far superior in 2010, too. Dallas' 2010 line was flat out old and done.

Is it Felix Jones' fault that he was only handed the football 6-36 (6.0 YPC) in a loss at Arizona last year? Jones hung a 16-77 (4.8 YPC) game on Arizona in 2010, and he did that with a done offensive line. Is that Jones' fault?

During the past 3 seasons, Felix Jones has been given the opportunity to rush the football (in the double digits) 22 times. That includes 2 playoff games in 2009. Jones averaged 14.3 rushes per game in those 22 games. Here are those stats:

315-1593 (5.05 YPC)

Again, when the Cowboys have fed Felix Jones the rock, in the double digits, Jones has delivered the goods to the Cowboys. Again, Felix Jones has proven to be extremely explosive and extremely productive in the 14-16 rush range during the past three seasons. Jones' YPC in the double digits mirrors his career regular season YPC of 5.1 YPC.

Finally, if the FB executes just a halfway decent trap block on Jason Pierre-Paul last year (1st Giants game), your Dallas Cowboys are going to be NFC East Champions. Free and Austin had their blocks on the second level, and there is no telling how far Jones runs on that 2nd down and 5 zone bend. The effort by the FB was pathetic with the NFC East on the line.

Just who was that destroying the Philadelphia Eagles in the 2009 wildcard game and in the defacto NFC East title game in 2009?

Who was that?

My biggest problem with Felix is that he is injury prone when asked to play many snaps. For whatever reason, he can't handle the load. I don't blame him for his draft position. Jerry, Ginger or whoever should be blamed for taking a third down back with a first round pick. That part-time position is just not worth a first. I don't think Felix will be here next year. If the season is going bad, it would be smart to trade him right before the trade deadline to a team needing a RB instead of letting him walk without getting anything. If one of these udfa backs makes the team, it could happen. The team liked Cyrus Gray (sp?) in this year's draft. I don't have any clue as what the plans were for him if drafted. I see Felix as another high draft pick that won't be on the team long term.

 

[aikemirv]

We have great players but last year we had 2 key areas of weakness - secondary and oline. You can't be successful without those!

I also think we have a few with loser mentality which does not help you either!

 

[jterrell]

I disagree with the majority opinions so will voice mine.

We are not as good in our top 10 players as many argue.
A lot of smart people suggest this but I mightily disagree.
I'd love to actually debate it with someone.
To start you have to give me the top 10 players to start LAST year.

I will tell you AT LEAST 3 or 4 guys in 2012 in our top 10 players weren't there in 2011.
That is called progress.

If we are good this year we may well be better along both lines but we will certainly be better in our top 10. The NFL is a league of big plays and top 10 players are who makes them. When you have Miles Austin hurt and slowed by injury all year and Ratliff declining the top 10 was way over-rated.

 

[DFWJC]

The talent's been overrated. We've been a weak team in the trenches for years and years. We remain weak today, IMO. Until that changes expect to be flabbergasted at the end results every year.

The key to next season, other than staying healthy of course, lies with the play of Livings, Costa/Kowalski/Arkin/Nagy, Bernadeau, Free, Lissemore, Brent, Hatcher, maybe even Crawford.

As they go, we go.

I too think the talent has been overrated. I do think we are methodically upgrading this team though.

 

[DFWJC]

J Charles missed an entire season from an acl blowout. His number would totally dwarf Felix' if he has played last season.