Werder breaks down WR issues on Irvin Show - 7/8/08

[dbair1967]

I'm done wasting my time with you.

Your mind is obviously already made up (and closed).

You see what you want to see.

You're happy with status quo?

Duly noted.

I'm not.

there's a difference between you and I...to me, there's no reason to go get someone from outside unless they are an obvious upgrade at the 2 spot and a potential 1 if something happened to Owens. I dont see us getting that person (somebody liek a Roy Williams, Anquan Boldin, Chad Johnson etc etc). Otherwise we should simply try to develop what we have from within, and several of these guys do have some ability, they just need reps. Patrick Crayton has made himself into a very nice 2/3 WR ove the years. He runs good routes and has great hands, and he does have some run afetr catch skills. He's got better every yr in the league.

You on the other hand seem to either be desperate (ie, think we as a team are desperrate) or just have some kind of serious man crush on Matt Jones, who is not an obvious upgrade over anyone already here. He would not beat out Crayton for the 2nd spot, nor would he be anywhere near a replacement for Owens if he got hurt. He doesnt play any special teams and has a highly questionable attitude and work ethic. Its likely he wouldnt even make our roster and if he did, would hardly play. I'd rather see what happens internally before taking a chance on a wildcard who's only proven to be a flop so far.

David

 

[Stash]

Your mind is made up, too. You think Matt Jones will be some magical answer. He is not.

And what gives you such definitive insight into the matter? Pot meet kettle.

I'm not saying he's any 'magical answer'. The team could trade for him and if he's the 'scrub' some think, he could get cut before the season started. I'm not 'guaranteeing' anything. Merely presenting an option I happen to believe in.

There is a difference between being happy with the status quo and understanding that at this point there is little that can be done to change it.

Sounds like trying to have it both ways to me. I haven't resigned myself to the fact that there are no options.

Complain all you want about the current wide receiving corp. It is in its current state because of many decision made over the last few years. Not one thing is going to dramatically change it unless they can pull off a blockbuster trade. And the probability of that happening is pretty low. You don't have to be happy with it, but it is what it is.

Fine. I'm not happy with it and I'm complaining about it. If you don't want to 'hear it', don't read it.

You bash Crayton as a 7th rounder, but he has gotten better each year. He has achieved the most out of his skill set. You also promote Jones a 1st rounder who just had his worst year of his 3 seasons. It looks like he may have reached the most out of his skill set as well. With him the size and speed he brings to the table is not enough to compensate for the wee sized mental game he brings as well.

I'm not 'bashing' Crayton for being a 7th rounder, but more pointing out that a team can't make a living by repeatedly making late round gambles.

Hard for a player to have a great season when his coach doesn't play him, but we've been through this scenario before.

Fact is that Jones would cost a late round draft pick to acquire.

If he worked out and made the team, great. You'd have a 25 year old receiver with great physical skills for now and the future.

If he didn't work out, you used a late round pick that you have plenty of for next year.

Low risk, potentially high reward.

This team does a lot of that.

 

[Stash]

there's a difference between you and I...

Pletny of differnces.

Petulance being the biggest.

to me, there's no reason to go get someone from outside unless they are an obvious upgrade at the 2 spot and a potential 1 if something happened to Owens. I dont see us getting that person (somebody liek a Roy Williams, Anquan Boldin, Chad Johnson etc etc).

So if you can't get the best, you'd rather have none? Not me, I'd be looking for another option rather than none.

Otherwise we should simply try to develop what we have from within, and several of these guys do have some ability, they just need reps.

I don't have a problem with developing. I would prefer Glenn be released and the team get a receiver to take that roster spot.

Patrick Crayton has made himself into a very nice 2/3 WR ove the years. He runs good routes and has great hands, and he does have some run afetr catch skills. He's got better every yr in the league.

No problem with Crayton, and I'm not advocating getting rid of him.

You on the other hand seem to either be desperate (ie, think we as a team are desperrate) or just have some kind of serious man crush on Matt Jones, who is not an obvious upgrade over anyone already here. He would not beat out Crayton for the 2nd spot, nor would he be anywhere near a replacement for Owens if he got hurt. He doesnt play any special teams and has a highly questionable attitude and work ethic. Its likely he wouldnt even make our roster and if he did, would hardly play. I'd rather see what happens internally before taking a chance on a wildcard who's only proven to be a flop so far.

Even if Jones didn't 'beat out' Crayton for the #2 spot, he would still have a role in Dallas. He's certainly and upgrade over Austin, Hurd, or Stanback.

So yeah, getting potentially this team's #3 receiver for a late round draft pick sounds like a deal to me.

 

[DA FAN]

Sure, I agree we will be OK with the receivers we have.

But what happens if TO or Crayton go down?

I don't think Crayton can be our #1 WR and I don't think Hurd can be our #2.

That's what worries me, INJURIES.

 

[joseephuss]

So yeah, getting potentially this team's #3 receiver for a late round draft pick sounds like a deal to me.

Having the #3 guy on the roster already sounds like a better deal to hope for or waiting until Jones is released is a better deal. I like having lots of draft picks even 6th rounders. Ideally they should only be traded for definite upgrades, not maybe upgrades like Jones.

I don't buy it is the Jacksonville coaches fault Jones did not play every game or produce at a higher level. If you can play, you will. There is no coach out there that is going to sit a guy that can help his team win unless there are some serious issues. Are there serious issues with Matt Jones? Or is it that Jones is just not that valuable? I am thinking the latter.

 

[CATCH17]

Sure, I agree we will be OK with the receivers we have.

But what happens if TO or Crayton go down?

I don't think Crayton can be our #1 WR and I don't think Hurd can be our #2.

That's what worries me, INJURIES.

90% of the teams in the NFL are in the same boat as us if their #1 goes down.

If the talent we have built on this team isn't good enough to overcome a TO injury then we are the most overrated team in the league.

As far as im concerned this team has way more talent than the Eagles team that got to the Superbowl without Owens in the playoffs.

If they can do it, then there is no excuse for us not to do it.

 

[Stash]

90% of the teams in the NFL are in the same boat as us if their #1 goes down.

I don't see how that means the team shouldn't do everything they can to protect themselves against it. Isn't that why you have more than one receiver on the roster?

If the talent we have built on this team isn't good enough to overcome a TO injury then we are the most overrated team in the league.

Judging by what happened when Owens was hurt and less than 100% last season, that's what history has shown.

As far as im concerned this team has way more talent than the Eagles team that got to the Superbowl without Owens in the playoffs.

If they can do it, then there is no excuse for us not to do it.

The Eagles accomplished what they did when the entire NFC was at an all-time low. That's no longer the case. That Eagles team would be just as mediocre as the current Eagles.

They coasted to that Super Bowl appearance, losing their final few regular season games and coasting past patsies in the playoffs.

 

[dbair1967]

I don't see how that means the team shouldn't do everything they can to protect themselves against it. Isn't that why you have more than one receiver on the roster?

and Jones doesnt protect anything, because he is no better than whats here already

Judging by what happened when Owens was hurt and less than 100% last season, that's what history has shown.

that was last yr...we didnt have Hudson Houck coaching the OL, nor did we have MBIII starting and Felix Jones playing a role...the running game should be significantly better this yr

They coasted to that Super Bowl appearance, losing their final few regular season games and coasting past patsies in the playoffs.

that we sorta agree on, although they were still a pretty solid team even w/o Owens

and we'd still be a very solid team w/o Owens too...unless we get a premier guy via trade, if we lose Owens nobody is going to totally pick up that slack...we just have to trust our coaches and hope they put the players we into positions to make plays...we certainly have players around them who are capable of making everyone better (Romo, Witten, our OL in general, RB's)

David

 

[Stash]

and Jones doesnt protect anything, because he is no better than whats here already

Jones is better than Austin, Hurd, or Stanback.

that was last yr...we didnt have Hudson Houck coaching the OL, nor did we have MBIII starting and Felix Jones playing a role...the running game should be significantly better this yr

And I hope you're right. But I would hate to count on that and be disappointed.

that we sorta agree on, although they were still a pretty solid team even w/o Owens

We agree? Is that one of the signs of the Apocolypse?

and we'd still be a very solid team w/o Owens too...unless we get a premier guy via trade, if we lose Owens nobody is going to totally pick up that slack...we just have to trust our coaches and hope they put the players we into positions to make plays...we certainly have players around them who are capable of making everyone better (Romo, Witten, our OL in general, RB's)

Definitely agree, nobody is going to totally pick up that slack. I'm just looking for as many options as I can get.

I'm also in the camp that would prefer a better veteran backup QB to Brad Johnson.

My stance is that this team is Super Bowl caliber and I would do anything and everything I could to ensure that it wasn't derailed by injury.

 

[joseephuss]

Jones is better than Austin, Hurd, or Stanback.


.

Jones is not better than Austin and a 6th round pick.

Jones is not better than Hurd and a 6th round pick.

Jones is not better than Stanback and a 6th round pick.

You have to count the 6th round pick because that is what you want to trade to acquire Jones. A 6th round pick typically will play special teams. Austin and Hurd already play special teams. Stanback will probably play some special teams. Jones does not.

 

[Stash]

Jones is not better than Austin and a 6th round pick.

Jones is not better than Hurd and a 6th round pick.

Jones is not better than Stanback and a 6th round pick.

You have to count the 6th round pick because that is what you want to trade to acquire Jones. A 6th round pick typically will play special teams. Austin and Hurd already play special teams. Stanback will probably play some special teams. Jones does not.

What does that have to do with acquiring Jones? Even if I don't agree with your logic.

I'm not advocating dumping any of them.

I would stop playing 'The Waiting Game' and dump Glenn (who also doesn't play special teams).

I'll count the 6th round pick as much as you'll count the 4th rounder wasted on Skyler Green a few years back.

He played special teams.

 

[khiladi]

As a side note, I don't believe we will be as heavily reliant on the passing game this year. This will minimize the impact of say, losing a Terrell Owens if it happens. With the addition of Hudson Houck, we will adopt a pretty solid, running game.

Julius Jones won't be running into an OL's back and Marion Barber won't have to bust his runs outside always, because of crappy run-blocking scheme. We won't be in as many third and long situations, being forced to throw.

 

[Stash]

As a side note, I don't believe we will be as heavily reliant on the passing game this year. This will minimize the impact of say, losing a Terrell Owens if it happens. With the addition of Hudson Houck, we will adopt a pretty solid, running game.

Julius Jones won't be running into an OL's back and Marion Barber won't have to bust his runs outside always, because of crappy run-blocking scheme. We won't be in as many third and long situations, being forced to throw.

I'm certainly hopeful that you're right and that's the case.

But I would hate to count on that and be disappointed (and stuck) when it matters most.

 

[khiladi]

I'm certainly hopeful that you're right and that's the case.

But I would hate to count on that and be disappointed (and stuck) when it matters most.

I think it is going to be the same, even if they up-grade their number 2 WR. Dallas was forced into way too many third and long situations last year.

Romo bought us a lot of time in many of those situations but that can't continue. It puts too much pressure on him and the WRs. I don't care how great the QB is, if it keeps happening, we fade again in the play-offs.

 

[CATCH17]

I think it is going to be the same, even if they up-grade their number 2 WR. Dallas was forced into way too many third and long situations last year.

Romo bought us a lot of time in many of those situations but that can't continue. It puts too much pressure on him and the WRs. I don't care how great the QB is, if it keeps happening, we fade again in the play-offs.

There is no telling how many times Romo bailed us out on 3rd and long last year.

But I guess anyone can do it with the talent we have....

 

[Stash]

There is no telling how many times Romo bailed us out on 3rd and long last year.

But I guess anyone can do it with the talent we have....

According to some bozo from BSPN anyway.....

 

[skinsscalper]

We can do better than Crayton as a #2 receiver. With as many double teams as T.O. gets and Witten often being covered by corners, the most you can get out of Crayton was 50 receptions and 697 yards? Not even to mention the fact that over 1/4 of those yards came from one game(STL). He doesnt get open consistently enough.

Just a little history lesson for the Madden generation: Alvin Harper amassed a grand total of 35 receptions for 562 yards and 4 TDs in the 1992 season (the first Super Bowl of the 90's).

The next year? 36 receptions for 777 yards and 5 TDs. Phenomenal YPC average, BTW (and never duplicated). The 50 receptions and 7 TDs that Crayton put up are nothing to scoff at. Try realistic expectations and you'll be less disappointed.

Here's a few numbers for you to ponder.

35 562 16.1 4 (1992)

36 777 21.6 5 (1993)

38 613 16.1 2 (1995)


Those are the numbers of the #2 WRs on the Dallas Cowboys' during our last 3 Super Bowl seasons. ONE player had more yards (Harper) during that stretch than Crayton had last year. NONE had more TDs. Some people need to get their head out of the clouds and pay attention to REAL football as opposed to fantasy stats.

Everyone's high on Jason Witten (as well we should be), but keep in mind that it took Witten 46 more receptions to come up with the same amount of TDs that Crayton recorded. You can spin that anyway you want, but that's a fact.

Crayton is a very serviceable #2 regardless of which measuring stick you choose to use. Is he All-Pro? No. And he doesn't need to be. He's a #2 WR.

 

[joseephuss]

What does that have to do with acquiring Jones? Even if I don't agree with your logic.

I'm not advocating dumping any of them.

I would stop playing 'The Waiting Game' and dump Glenn (who also doesn't play special teams).

I'll count the 6th round pick as much as you'll count the 4th rounder wasted on Skyler Green a few years back.

He played special teams.

I am not counting on Glenn for this year. If he is on the roster come final cuts I will see that as a bonus. My guess is he doesn't make the roster. I see no reason to cut him right now as it is not costing anyone a spot right now, but eventually he will get cut. I don't even count Glenn in any discussion about possible moves for Dallas.

What does Sklyer Green have to do with anything at this point? They missed and have moved on.

I doubt Dallas keeps 6 wide receivers on the roster this year like they did last year. I think they only keep 5 receivers. Right now that is TO, Crayton, Hurd, Austin and Stanback. If you bring in Jones, you have to cut one of these guys. I think it would be a waste to keep 6 receivers on the roster. That is why I made the comparison of each plus the 6th round pick that it would take to acquire Jones.

 

[Stash]

I am not counting on Glenn for this year. If he is on the roster come final cuts I will see that as a bonus. My guess is he doesn't make the roster. I see no reason to cut him right now as it is not costing anyone a spot right now, but eventually he will get cut. I don't even count Glenn in any discussion about possible moves for Dallas.

Then why not use the roster space for a receiver who can play? Why not try to make a move for another receiver? The team could still keep all of the projects that everyone loves, and you could bring in a guy who has some experience.

What does Sklyer Green have to do with anything at this point? They missed and have moved on.

About as much as adding Hurd, Austin, and Stanback to the cost of a 6th round pick for Jones does.

Apparently, it's no big deal that they wasted a 4th rounder or used a 6th rounder this year on a guy who would have beeen undrafted, but they'd better not use a 6th rounder on Jones!

I doubt Dallas keeps 6 wide receivers on the roster this year like they did last year. I think they only keep 5 receivers. Right now that is TO, Crayton, Hurd, Austin and Stanback. If you bring in Jones, you have to cut one of these guys. I think it would be a waste to keep 6 receivers on the roster. That is why I made the comparison of each plus the 6th round pick that it would take to acquire Jones.

I think that's dumber than keeping Glenn around on the chance that he could play.

This team has little proven depth as it is. I'd hate to see that get even thinner.

 

[joseephuss]

Then why not use the roster space for a receiver who can play? Why not try to make a move for another receiver? The team could still keep all of the projects that everyone loves, and you could bring in a guy who has some experience.



About as much as adding Hurd, Austin, and Stanback to the cost of a 6th round pick for Jones does.

Apparently, it's no big deal that they wasted a 4th rounder or used a 6th rounder this year on a guy who would have beeen undrafted, but they'd better not use a 6th rounder on Jones!



I think that's dumber than keeping Glenn around on the chance that he could play.

This team has little proven depth as it is. I'd hate to see that get even thinner.

I don't understand any of your points.

Keeping Glenn on the roster right now does not prevent or limit Dallas in any way from making any other roster moves to acquire a wide receiver. That is pretty straight forward. If they keep him on the roster after final cuts and he is not 100% healthy then he would be wasting a spot. We will have to see if that happens. I doubt it gets to that point because I doubt he is ever 100% healthy and I doubt they keep him if/when he isn't.

It was a big deal that Skyler Green was a failure. Did you not read this board after watching him play and him finally getting cut? I don't know where you got that I thought it wasn't a big deal. I am just not going to dwell on something that happened two years ago and doesn't impact what moves Dallas makes right now.

My argument is not based on previous moves Dallas has made or yet to make with Glenn. It is based on that I don't think Jones is as good as you claim and not worth trading a 6th round pick to acquire. Dallas screwing themselves by drafting guys like Peterman, Rogers, Fasano or whomever does not change my mind about Jones. One screwup does not justify making another.