What a difference a HC makes, Chip Kelly

[NinePointOh]

I'm sure you can beat these teams a lot of different ways but it's funny that hasn't happened yet, at least with the frequency that you seem to imply can happen. And those ball control offenses better have decent defenses or their out of luck. I don't think your arguments are lost on these coaches with attacking type offenses. I just don't think they care. They want an uptempo game to wear the other team out. It's their philosophy and whether or not in can work in the NFL for the long haul has yet to be seen but in the short term, Manning has thrown 50 TD's and Foles has thrown 27 with 2 interceptions. But I will say this, give me a good D and you have a decent chance and that's something we've seen time and time again. On the flip side, the NFL has handicapped defenses and the way they play the game so the old adage that a good D can beat a good O doesn't hold the same relevance that it did in the past.

I don't think you grasped what my point was at all, because I didn't imply anything about Denver and New Orleans being easy to beat. In fact, I specifically suggested they should be very successful most of the time, because they have two of the most efficient passers in the league. My point was that playing up-tempo doesn't automatically make you win games, even though it makes you score points. It's a good strategy if you are confident in your ability to be more efficient than your opponent in terms of points per possession (which Manning and Brees can do, Vick couldn't, and Foles apparently can), but if you've got an inefficient offense, then maximizing the number of possessions each team gets is going to make you fall behind, not build a lead. If playing aggressive and up-tempo was such a panacea for teams with lousy players, don't you think everyone would be doing it? I mean, it's not exactly a new concept.

I agree with your point but then you'd also have to call Foles elite and I'm not ready to do that.

I'm not ready to call Foles an elite quarterback, and I don't have to. But there's little doubt that he played like a pretty good one over this short stretch against these particular defenses. Many elite QBs started that way, and many mediocre QB had elite-looking stretches that turned out to be short-lived. We'll see if he can sustain that level of success.

I think Foles benefited from the system and it was a good match. Foles was 1 and 5 with 6 TD's and 5 INT's with Reid and I didn't think he looked all that special. I understand he was a rookie that year but the NFL has evolved to a league where rookies can come in and make an impact. Was one off-season so instrumental that he could go 8 and 2 the following season with a 119 QB rating? Of course you'll say it was because you have to. On the other hand, I value good coaching and believe that the stats have to speak for themselves at some point.

You seem to want to put lots of words in my mouth that I don't believe and that don't follow logically from my argument at all. Should I get out of the way so you can keep arguing with your imagination?

Foles had one of the best preseasons in the NFL as a rookie, and in the regular season he looked just fine outside of his second career start, against Washington's top 5 defense. I think Foles probably improved some after his rookie year and benefited from a weak schedule, and I don't think he's as good as his 119 QB rating suggests, but if he is, he certainly wouldn't be the first elite QB (if that's indeed what he turns out to be) who took more than two months to develop completely.

Except he didn't. Chip Kelly took a 4 and 12 team on the decline and took them to 10 and 6. Results do matter.

Except when Andy Reid took a 2 and 14 team on the decline and took them to 11 and 5, right? Then results don't matter.

Lol.......the Eagles won the East and will play another game after being 4 and 12 the previous season. If you polled the Eagles fans or most any NFL fans or talking heads and asked them if canning Reid was the right move, I'm not sure you'll get a whole lot of people taking your position. I live in Eagles country and I wouldn't even ask them if canning Reid was the right move because I don't want to get laughed out of the room.

Even if I trusted the opinions of a pack of Eagles fans, they would still be entirely irrelevant to the conversation. What the fans believe is inconsequential. I'm interested in what the evidence suggests.

 

[Beast_from_East]

As I said its old. You keep repeating excuses and others say there are reasons for the problems .

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree bro.......................Jerry has decided to keep Garrett so I guess its all a moot point now.

 

[CyberB0b]

We see first to worst all the time. Ask Shanny how that worked out for him. Or Tony Sparano.

And they were 2 points away from finishing with the same record we did and not playing in the playoffs.

They also had a new qb improved play there helps a team don't you think? And don't tell me Chip is a QB guru. He hasn't really shown any special ability to develop guys.

But hey keep thinking that a coach is always the solution.

Afterall it's that mentality that owners of losing teams sell to fanbases in the winter when they fire coaches. IT'LL BE BETTER BECAUSE WE GOT A NEW GUY!

Also you point out Chip but what about the other new coaches all around the league? Why didn't they magically turn around their franchises?

Well?

You don't have the answers Bob. You ain't got the answer.

If I had the answers, I would be in the front office of an NFL franchise. I am just a guy who calls it like I see it. There are very recent examples of coaches coming in and changing the culture of the team and building a winner. Of course it would be naive to say they do that all by themselves. They need support from their bosses and from their subordinates. The organization needs to support them fully.

This organization doesn't do that. Jerry will undermine his coaches through his actions and his words. No coach will ever be successful under this regime again. With that said, it doesn't absolve Garrett of his own mistakes. He didn't change the culture when he became the head coach, because he was very much a part of the disaster of a team in 2010. Garrett has been a terrible game manager since he became the HC. Even with reduced play calling duties, relegated to being a "walk around" head coach, he still continues to make bone headed game management mistakes that cost of football games.

 

[Coy]

I don't think he has accepted mediocrity. I saw him react to that interception. I see many here say he just wants the money. I don't believe that for a second.

I do believe that he wants to win, I don't doubt that, all I am saying is that he has accepted mediocrity with Garrett because he thinhks he'll see the benefits in the future, he said so himself.

 

[brdawk20forever]

And all of those things suddenly became crippling deficiencies in 2012 after making them go 121-70 and making the playoffs 9 times over the previous 12 seasons? And the way the way Reid coaches his teams to practice, eat, and exercise was magically no longer a problem when he went to Kansas City and turned a perennially awful team into a playoff team in his first year?

 

[Mansta54]

I'm sure there's plenty of room on that eagles bandwagon, help yourself. Bye!!!!

 

[Coy]

We see first to worst all the time. Ask Shanny how that worked out for him. Or Tony Sparano.

And they were 2 points away from finishing with the same record we did and not playing in the playoffs.

They also had a new qb improved play there helps a team don't you think? And don't tell me Chip is a QB guru. He hasn't really shown any special ability to develop guys.

But hey keep thinking that a coach is always the solution.

Afterall it's that mentality that owners of losing teams sell to fanbases in the winter when they fire coaches. IT'LL BE BETTER BECAUSE WE GOT A NEW GUY!

Also you point out Chip but what about the other new coaches all around the league? Why didn't they magically turn around their franchises?

Well?

You don't have the answers Bob. You ain't got the answer.

Here's the list, most of them did better than the year before, so they kind of did turn around their franchise.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/tag/_/name/2013-new-nfl-head-coaches

Arians, Trestman (no Cutler and tons of D injuries, by the way Lovie was fired with a 10-6 record), Kelly, Marrone (had to play with 3 diff QB's), Chudzinski (3 diff QB's), very bad ones by the way, Gus Bradley, Andy Reid and Mike McCoy, that group did very well, much better than ehat we did in Dallas.

 

[brdawk20forever]

And all of those things suddenly became crippling deficiencies in 2012 after making them go 121-70 and making the playoffs 9 times over the previous 12 seasons? And the way the way Reid coaches his teams to practice, eat, and exercise was magically no longer a problem when he went to Kansas City and turned a perennially awful team into a playoff team in his first year?

Andy Reid's record is a bit deceiving. When Jim Johnson was his DC, Reid's record was 97-67-1, with a 10-7 record in the playoffs. After JJ passed on, his record was 33-31, 0-2 in the playoffs, with one of those losses I'm sure you remember well. Reid gave JJ 100% control of the defense. That defense tied for the league lead in sacks from 200-2007 (342), was 2nd in 3rd down % (34.3), 2nd in red zone TD % (43.4), and 4th in points allowed per game (17.6). Johnson made sure guys like Brian Dawkins, Troy Vincent, Jeremiah Trotter, Hugh Douglas, Lito Sheppard, and a list of others were in the best position to make plays. 26 times JJ's men made it to the pro bowl. When Reid lost that, his magic touch for winning left as well.

Reid also suffered after McNabb started to go downhill. He never found a solid, consistent replacement. Reid's last two years were horrible. It was time to go. He needed a change, given all the hardship he went through.

Now, Reid went to KC and took over a team loaded with talent (six pro bowlers). His success is warranted, but it also shows just how bad of a HC Romeo Crannel was in KC.

As for Kelly...I remember another college hot shot coach going to a team. That team finished 1-15 his first year I believe. That man's name was Jimmy Johnson, and there were a lot of people wondering if he could do the job. Jones kept him and it worked out. (robbing Minny on a trade sure helped too). I and many other Eagle fans were envious of Johnson. I wished for a guy like him to take over. I am hoping that Kelly is our Jimmy Johnson. And if he is, I hope Lurie doesn't pull a Jones and kick him to the curb.

 

[PA Cowboy Fan]

Jerry will continue to support Garrett until the Cowboys aren't relevant anymore. After all he wants a good show.

 

[Blue&Silver]

Jerry will continue to support Garrett until the Cowboys aren't relevant anymore. After all he wants a good show.

I think Jerry knows Garrett isn't a very good head coach, but he won't admit defeat publicly. He's going to continue force-feeding him on the team, and us, until the guy becomes good so he can say I told you so. It's stubbornness. He might be good some day, but it's coming at the cost of the fans, and franchise, now.

 

[jobberone]

I do believe that he wants to win, I don't doubt that, all I am saying is that he has accepted mediocrity with Garrett because he thinhks he'll see the benefits in the future, he said so himself.

I take everything he says with a grain of salt. I can only try to think what I'd do were I him.

Despite how it appears at times, Jerry is not stupid even if he occasionally does something stupid. Of course we all learn as time goes by.....well at least most of us.

 

[blindzebra]

Oh how soon they forget.

Garrett inherited a 1-7 team without its starting QB and went 5-3 and the losses were by 3, 3, and 1 point. He increased the win total to 8 and then had two injury filled seasons making his defense horrible.

 

[Rogerthat12]

Jerry will continue to support Garrett until the Cowboys aren't relevant anymore. After all he wants a good show.

Are You not entertained?....lol

 

[Beast_from_East]

Oh how soon they forget.

Garrett inherited a 1-7 team without its starting QB and went 5-3 and the losses were by 3, 3, and 1 point. He increased the win total to 8 and then had two injury filled seasons making his defense horrible.

I am sure the Cowboys will put that in the program for next year...................the chapter titled "playoffs" is blank so they are going to need to fill the pages with something.


You know only loser franchises play the "we only lost X number of games by only Y number of points" card.

 

[Coy]

Oh how soon they forget.

Garrett inherited a 1-7 team without its starting QB and went 5-3 and the losses were by 3, 3, and 1 point. He increased the win total to 8 and then had two injury filled seasons making his defense horrible.

Serious question, who would you rather have coaching this team, Garrett or Belichick? Let me rephrase it, In today's NFL, is there any other coach you'd rather have? If so, how many?
Because from what you post about him it seems you think he is a heck of a HC.

 

[jterrell]

Gailey had two playoff seasons in two years, that was indeed a big mistake, I believe this is different, Jerry loves Garrett and really thinks he will someday be a good HC so he is willing to go through the growing pains of him becoming one. I hope you are right but I think he stays a couple of more years even if we only win 7 or 8 games a year, he's accepted Garrett's mediocrity, for how many years more? I don't know but I'd bet that for at least 2 or 3 more years.

Galley was fired because the vets hated his guts. Not sure it was a mistake given Gaileys record after leaving.

Again I was fine if Garrett was fired and fine if he was kept. I think he is a middle of road coach improving from poor.

But I like Jerry being honest and saying talent on field wasn't as strong this year. Injuries hurt, guys like miles and ware declining hurt. Jerry and the personnel guys have more to do with 8-8 than the head coach IMHO.

Garrett didn't get out coached 8 times. In years past it happened regularly but not this year. So I am fine with his return as few options would improve our win total next year. That is going to be determined by adding talent.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Oh how soon they forget.

Garrett inherited a 1-7 team without its starting QB and went 5-3 and the losses were by 3, 3, and 1 point. He increased the win total to 8 and then had two injury filled seasons making his defense horrible.

How many mediocre, playoff-less 8-8 seasons does this miraculous 5-3 start Garrett got off to as interim head coach buy him in your book?

 

[NinePointOh]

Andy Reid's record is a bit deceiving. When Jim Johnson was his DC, Reid's record was 97-67-1, with a 10-7 record in the playoffs. After JJ passed on, his record was 33-31, 0-2 in the playoffs, with one of those losses I'm sure you remember well. Reid gave JJ 100% control of the defense. That defense tied for the league lead in sacks from 200-2007 (342), was 2nd in 3rd down % (34.3), 2nd in red zone TD % (43.4), and 4th in points allowed per game (17.6). Johnson made sure guys like Brian Dawkins, Troy Vincent, Jeremiah Trotter, Hugh Douglas, Lito Sheppard, and a list of others were in the best position to make plays. 26 times JJ's men made it to the pro bowl. When Reid lost that, his magic touch for winning left as well.

You haven't contributed anything that hasn't been posited eight times already in the thread, and I've responded to it already.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

If we'd driven the ball on that final drive and he missed the postseason not taking a four point lead when he should have, nobody'd be praising his play calling tonight, that's for sure.

Yep.


Turnovers gave him the game. We agave him the game.

I think they get destroyed by saints.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

He came in and took a team from last to first, changed their identity, play calling and the most important thing, their wins. Yet here we are with the same HC for 3.5 years, at 8-8 but look at the positives, we play hard, we have been one win away from winning the division 3 straight years, remember, we are rebuilding, give Garrett a couple of more years and we will get to the playoffs.
Chip Kelly took over a really talented team, just like Reid in KC or Pagano in Indy or Harbaugh in SF or Rivera in Carolina or McCoy in SD or Carroll in Seattle, you know what I mean? they were just lucky.
Nobody rebuilds a team like Garrett does, nobody. SMH.

the cupboard wasn't exactly empty when he got there. team had grown tired of Reid and it was time for him to go. plus last year was Foley's grow up year. we knew vick sucked. and we can also see Reid is still capable and probably needed a change of scenary. I am not dismissing Kelly as a good coach, but he didn't exactly perform a miracle. he did have some nice pieces to work with.