What is your contract-years-remaining limit on player hold-outs?

[KingCorcoran]

I agree with in the general idea that 1st round picks are very valuable, and it's exactly why I wouldn't be upset for a second if Jerry tried to flip a player or two for picks. The extreme you're making it out to be though is wild and the comparisons you're using isn't really accurate. Haasan Reddick is a soon to be 30 year old player looking for his 3rd contract and carries a $15M cap hit this year. That's a massive difference from a 25 year old Micah Parsons who is still on his rookie deal. Parsons would have exponentially higher trade value, and the comparison to Reddick is almost like comparing the Amari Cooper deal to the Tyreek Hill trade. Both really good players but one is elite and wasn't already on their 2nd contract.

As mentioned in my previous post the Giants just gave up the #39 and #141 picks to acquire Brian Burns and gave him $28M per year. Brian Burns is a really good player, but no one is comparing him to Micah Parsons. I respect your philosophy on draft picks and partially agree, but it's not the reality that we are seeing in the NFL today.

Trading players for picks hasn't exactly worked out poorly for Philly or Miami giving up 1st rounders for Brown and HIll. You can cherry pick what deals have and havent worked out, but ultimately there are examples of good trades and bad trades either way.

As far as Jerry not being able to trade them has there even been a rumor that he is shopping any of these guys around? Maybe there have been and I've been too tuned out to notice, but I'm completely unaware that the possibility of a trade has even been explored.

I have to believe that an owner unwillingly, or very reluctant, to pay top dollar to his top talent and also doesn’t trade his top talent is because he cannot find equal value in trade. As the value of draft picks increases because they become necessary to be able to pay your top talent and field a team that can possibly compete for the Super Bowl, teams will be increasingly less likely to part with picks. Philly knew they couldn’t pay Reddick, like parting with Hargrave the year before, lost depth (significant) on their offensive line, because they can’t afford to keep everyone. They are playing the game that is the “game” in the NFL today. For all their effort they are probably not as good as they were last season. They didn’t even claim to be “all in”. There is no indication Jerry Jones has adapted to the reality that is today’s NFL.

 

[McKDaddy]

Holdouts aren't good for anyone but they get there because no other remedy could be reached and its the only leverage the player has. Same thing as when union workers go on strike.

When a contract is already in place though, what is there to remedy?

Are we really supposed to believe the player & agent are being unbiased and objective about his value? That they have any concerns about the good of the team?

If you were an owner and locked in multiple players to contracts so you knew the financial basis of your team 4-5 years down the road and then one or more come back 3 years in wanting to renegotiate which will eat up the money you had available, how are you supposed to build and keep a team relevant? It defeats the entire purpose of signing them when you did.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Paying him early is not in the budget. Where have you been in the past 6 months? Have you not noticed the FO isn't spending money? They have a hard enough time extending contracts in their final year. Paying Parsons early is out of the question. If he were to hold out with 2 years left on his contract he would not get his money any sooner.

Disagree with that. This would be an extension off of his rookie deal, not a brand new contract so it's pretty irrelevant. For example Trevor Lawrence just signed a 5yr/$275M deal this offseason, but will still only count $15m against the cap for 2024....before the extension he was set to count $12m against the cap.

The only way a Micah Parsons extension isn't in the budget is if Jerry simply doesn't have the cash to pay out his signing bonus, which would be worrisome. The Cowboys could easily get an extension done this year with Parsons with pretty minimal effects on the cap.

 

[Diehardblues]

You're not wrong, but we can't ignore the flip side of the equation either. Of the top 10 QBs by AAV (Burrow, Lawrence, Goff, Herbert, Jackson, Hurts, Murray, Watson, Cousins, Mahomes) only 5 of them made the playoffs last season and one of those (Watson) barely played. I'm just not seeing a direct correlation between paying a QB and success. Now I think there is a direct correlation between paying a QB and the perception that you have a super bowl contender which may be even more important to some owners. This is why the Cowboys have been given the super bowl or bust label going back to Romo every year. It's why the the Bengals with 35 wins and 2 playoff appearances since Burrow entered the league is talked about as a serious contender every year, but not Pittsburgh who has 40 wins and 3 playoff appearances in that same time period.

You also from last season have the examples of guys like Jared Goff who was looked at as a JAG or at least on the decline once he went to Detroit. As they built up that roster hes viewed as a top 10ish QB again. Baker Mayfield couldn't find anyone who wanted him and settled for a $4M contract last season and won a playoff game. Joe Flacco came from off the street to get the Browns to the playoffs. Kenny Pickett had more wins that touchdown passes last year and made the playoffs.

Now to be fair the final 4 QBs in the conference championship games, 3 of them were on that top 10 paid list so maybe there is something to that???

Appreciate the conversation by the way. You make some very valid arguments, I just view it as there is more than one way to build a team in the modern version of the game.

I don’t totally disagree. I’m just providing why I think most owners are pursuing this direction . Because like you said the perception sells.

 

[GoldenR]

It's all about the QB and do these owners believe they are worth paying them top $$. Really don't care if you agree or not but coaching is only a small part of the picture. See Belichick. When you fall into or hit on THAT QB your franchise changes, facts. Manning, Brady, Mahomes, Wilson, C.Palmer, K Warner, you got a
David Woodley then get a Marino, you got nothing then get a Dan Fouts for you old school fans, you get a Montana after having nothing, hit on a Romo after 9 failures and our team changes. I could list 20 more that changed their franchise........................Yet the talking heads believe Andy R. is the reason with the Chiefs success...............Tampa Bay picked up a QB from the Patriots, what happened? ALL ABOUT THE QB. Oh, where is that great coach Bruce A. who led Bucs to Super Bowl? PHTTTTT.

 

[thunderpimp91]

I have to believe that an owner unwillingly, or very reluctant, to pay top dollar to his top talent and also doesn’t trade his top talent is because he cannot find equal value in trade. As the value of draft picks increases because they become necessary to be able to pay your top talent and field a team that can possibly compete for the Super Bowl, teams will be increasingly less likely to part with picks. Philly knew they couldn’t pay Reddick, like parting with Hargrave the year before, lost depth (significant) on their offensive line, because they can’t afford to keep everyone. They are playing the game that is the “game” in the NFL today. For all their effort they are probably not as good as they were last season. They didn’t even claim to be “all in”. There is no indication Jerry Jones has adapted to the reality that is today’s NFL.

When has Jerry ever not paid his top guys? Even last time around he waited to pay Dak and gave in at the very last moment. This was even before the monster Watson/Wilson deals. If Jerry wanted to flip Dak at that time for a draft haul he absolutely could have and we know he could have because of the deals that came after. Just because Jerry is a moron doesn't mean teams wont trade for these guys, I think it's simply because Jerry believes he owns these guys and he negotiates like its still 1985.

You're absolutely right in your general ideology around draft picks, you're just way too extreme on your take. If Jerry let the league know he wanted a 1st round pick for Micah Parsons he would get 31 phone calls within the hour, and recent history supports that.

 

[McKDaddy]

Why? Parsons has clearly outplayed his rookie deal. Dude's jersey is in Canton already after tying the record for most sacks in the first three seasons. He's earned the money.

I hear where you are coming from but the market worked as intended. He was drafted in the 11th slot. He is being paid as such.

If he was unlucky not to have been drafted top 3, that's life. If he was lucky not to have been drafted by a less visible team that would have played him exclusively as an off ball linebacker, that's life. Why is it anyone's responsibility to rectify the bounces of life?

Isn't the team always looking to acquire talent that can outperform what it took to acquire them? Why would they then rush to pay full price rather than enjoy their discount?

 

[MyFairLady]

To me this shouldn't be any different from a regular employer employee relationship. If I wanted more money and I think I'm worth it, I'm going to talk to my boss. If we agree then everything's fine. If we have to seek a compromise and get it done everything's fine. If not I will look elsewhere.

One thing you need to remember is that in realty the players are not "professional" football players they are unionized employees who collectively bargain compensation arrangements with Ownership. They are not in a free market environment. They work under a strict set of rules agreed upon by both parties as do the Owners.

 

[DallasInDC]

First, let me say I am all for players getting the most money they can because their careers are short and a fluke injury could end their career or a random injury could negatively impact their future earnings.

My question to everyone (and I am being serious, there is no agenda behind this), at what point do you think the player is wrong to hold out?

So, for example, Lamb is going into his final contract year, with one injury he is likely to get a sub-market value contract offer in 2025 or he has to play on a one-year-prove-it contract just to get back "in the contract game".

The risk is very obvious and that combined with him playing on a pre-defined rookie contract makes it understandable that he wants a new contract before taking the field.

What happens when a player holds out with 2 years remaining on their contract? For example, Parsons has 2 years remaining on his contract and let's say he decides to hold out. Is he justified?

If so, why not hold out with 3 years remaining? What about 4 years remaing, assuming they are playing on a 5-year or 4-year-with-5th-option contract?

Again, I have no agenda in asking this as I would like to hear what people think.

Personally, I realize what the NFL (and every other professional sports league) is...it's a business and I am all for maximizing your earning potential. Only fans think of these as competitive sports first. Players and owners realize it for what it is....a product offered for a price. Nobody ever complains about how much the top Hollywood stars or singers get paid. or how much the executive leadership of a business or top salesperson of a company gets paid, so why should we complain how much an athlete gets paid. it's up to the owners to determine how they distribute the financials...not the fans/public. With that said, if an owner can cut a player at any time during a contract period then the player should have the right to sit out as well. Each side has their tools for negotiating so be it. Just my two cents.

 

[KingCorcoran]

When has Jerry ever not paid his top guys? Even last time around he waited to pay Dak and gave in at the very last moment. This was even before the monster Watson/Wilson deals. If Jerry wanted to flip Dak at that time for a draft haul he absolutely could have and we know he could have because of the deals that came after. Just because Jerry is a moron doesn't mean teams wont trade for these guys, I think it's simply because Jerry believes he owns these guys and he negotiates like its still 1985.

You're absolutely right in your general ideology around draft picks, you're just way too extreme on your take. If Jerry let the league know he wanted a 1st round pick for Micah Parsons he would get 31 phone calls within the hour, and recent history supports that.

When? Now. The extremes Dak, Zeke, Zack, and now CeeDee, have go to just to get paid what they end up getting paid anyway is not the same as paying “his top guys”. If fans can see what is going on, players, agents, owners all saw it coming long before. Whatever Parsons is worth in draft picks, and I don’t believe it’s a 1st, Jerry calls him a DE just to save $2.7 million on his fifth year salary. Do you believe Micah see that as respect from the team he plays for? He is special. Jerry treats him otherwise. Every other owner sees that. None will give up a 1st for him when his own team doesn’t think he’s even worth calling him what he is.

 

[thunderpimp91]

When? Now. The extremes Dak, Zeke, Zack, and now CeeDee, have go to just to get paid what they end up getting paid anyway is not the same as paying “his top guys”. If fans can see what is going on, players, agents, owners all saw it coming long before. Whatever Parsons is worth in draft picks, and I don’t believe it’s a 1st, Jerry calls him a DE just to save $2.7 million on his fifth year salary. Do you believe Micah see that as respect from the team he plays for? He is special. Jerry treats him otherwise. Every other owner sees that. None will give up a 1st for him when his own team doesn’t think he’s even worth calling him what he is.

Micah Parsons lined up on the LOS 801 times last season compared to 108 times off the ball. The guy is legitimately a DE at this point, and gets 90% of his snaps at DE, unless Zimmer changes that.

 

[KingCorcoran]

Micah Parsons lined up on the LOS 801 times last season compared to 108 times off the ball. The guy is legitimately a DE at this point, and gets 90% of his snaps at DE, unless Zimmer changes that.

Jerry Jones is back dooring a star. Everyone over 8 years old can see it. A blind man can see it. If you believe Jerry Jones is justified then to you it’s the right thing to do. Doesn‘t bother me. But he can’t trade Micah for draft pick because it’s not just the the pick(s) a team gives up to acquire him, but add the players you can’t afford to keep because you’re adding an expensive player. Teams like Detroit, San Francisco, Philadelphia, are exhausting cap space on their players in an attempt to be the best team in the NFC this season. Meanwhile, Dallas watches, scratching their heads, confused, not knowing what they want to do. If your bonafide star receiver can’t get paid appropriately, there’s 52 other guys that will be on the roster that flat out know they will never be treated well by the organization. Parsons has to be thinking get me out of here. If they can’t throw down for CeeDee after the season he had they won’t for me Under any circumstance. Dak probably will not agree to stay if offered $70 million per season, at this point. What a circus. It’s a shame.

 

[thunderpimp91]

Jerry Jones is back dooring a star. Everyone over 8 years old can see it. A blind man can see it. If you believe Jerry Jones is justified then to you it’s the right thing to do. Doesn‘t bother me. But he can’t trade Micah for draft pick because it’s not just the the pick(s) a team gives up to acquire him, but add the players you can’t afford to keep because you’re adding an expensive player. Teams like Detroit, San Francisco, Philadelphia, are exhausting cap space on their players in an attempt to be the best team in the NFC this season. Meanwhile, Dallas watches, scratching their heads, confused, not knowing what they want to do. If your bonafide star receiver can’t get paid appropriately, there’s 52 other guys that will be on the roster that flat out know they will never be treated well by the organization. Parsons has to be thinking get me out of here. If they can’t throw down for CeeDee after the season he had they won’t for me Under any circumstance. Dak probably will not agree to stay if offered $70 million per season, at this point. What a circus. It’s a shame.

I just don't see how it can be argued that Jerry is doing anything unfair to Parsons. The snap counts are right there and he gets 90% of his snaps at DE. Jake Ferguson got just a little under half of his snap last year at WR, but we are still going to call him a TE.

Again, I completely respect the thought process on trade values, but how do you believe that Brian Burns went for the #39 and #141 picks last year and received a new contract on top of it, but some team wouldn't give up the #32 pick for Parsons? I just don't see any actual evidence that is the case as teams are still giving up high picks to acquire high end veterans.

 

[Streifenkarl]

One thing you need to remember is that in realty the players are not "professional" football players they are unionized employees who collectively bargain compensation arrangements with Ownership. They are not in a free market environment. They work under a strict set of rules agreed upon by both parties as do the Owners.

I doubt one of them rules is "stop working if your agent feels he's not making enough money off your contract anymore". So much for the rules.

 

[conner01]

Unless it is your final contract year, holding out is not recommended, IMHO.

I think that’s reasonable. I get a player not wanting to risk injury in a contract year. But the rest of your contract is something you agreed to so stick it out

 

[AbeBeta]

I hear where you are coming from but the market worked as intended. He was drafted in the 11th slot. He is being paid as such.

If he was unlucky not to have been drafted top 3, that's life. If he was lucky not to have been drafted by a less visible team that would have played him exclusively as an off ball linebacker, that's life. Why is it anyone's responsibility to rectify the bounces of life?

Isn't the team always looking to acquire talent that can outperform what it took to acquire them? Why would they then rush to pay full price rather than enjoy their discount?

Oh man. You are so off base. Ge didn't get drafted top 3! Suck it!

Yeah, I'm sure Micah deserves less than Zack Wilson or Trey Lance. Oh wait, thrown Justin Fields on the "before Michah" list. But he should bow down because he got drafted by a "visible" team?

Dang, y'all hicks complaining about entitlements? Turn that around and ask yourself -- shouldn't someone who has clearly performed, get rewarded -- sort of the opposite, right?

 

[Cowboys5217]

Zero years. Holding out is a dishonest practice. You signed your name to the deal, now live up to it.

And don't give me any b.s. about financial worries. Even league minimum guys make far more than average people ever will.

 

[Flamma]

First, let me say I am all for players getting the most money they can because their careers are short and a fluke injury could end their career or a random injury could negatively impact their future earnings.

My question to everyone (and I am being serious, there is no agenda behind this), at what point do you think the player is wrong to hold out?

So, for example, Lamb is going into his final contract year, with one injury he is likely to get a sub-market value contract offer in 2025 or he has to play on a one-year-prove-it contract just to get back "in the contract game".

The risk is very obvious and that combined with him playing on a pre-defined rookie contract makes it understandable that he wants a new contract before taking the field.

What happens when a player holds out with 2 years remaining on their contract? For example, Parsons has 2 years remaining on his contract and let's say he decides to hold out. Is he justified?

If so, why not hold out with 3 years remaining? What about 4 years remaing, assuming they are playing on a 5-year or 4-year-with-5th-option contract?

Again, I have no agenda in asking this as I would like to hear what people think.

Players can't get extensions until they have played 3 seasons. Holding out after your first or second season wouldn't get you anything. Maybe laughed at.

Holdouts on rookie contracts I find to be perfectly fine. They're not asking to change the value of their current contract. They're asking for guaranteed money right away, and to be employed at a higher rate beyond their rookie deal. They just want an extension sooner rather than later.

Some vets can hold out for the exact same reason. They want an extension prior to playing the last season of their contract.

The holdouts we don't see often are the vets that signed a long term deal, and midway through it aren't happy with the money. They hold out for a contract renegotiation. Those are the crap ones.