Where are all of the Ellis doubters now?

[joseephuss]

He's never had a season like Tolbert had in 1996.

That was Tolbert's 8th season in the league. This is Ellis' 8th season.

Tolbert never had a season like that. He had two straight 5.5 sack seasons before 1996. He had 5 sacks in 1997. He was a solid player, but he wasn't a double digit sack artist. That season wasn't indicative of Tolbert's game. I was excited that he posted 12 sacks because he was one of my favorites, but really it doesn't make him any greater than Ellis. They play a very similar game. Both 7 to 8 sacks a season players and play strong against the run.

Tolbert had 42 sacks going into that 96 season. Ellis had 44 coming into this season. I just don't think having one great statistical year makes Tolbert greater than Ellis. If Ellis finished the season with 12 sacks, I wouldn't think he was greater than Tolbert either.

 

[jem88]

it was one season...and it wasnt like Tolbert had 20 sacks..he had 12

Ellis is a better player than Tolbert was

David

Considering there was no Haley playing opposite him it was more impressive than anything Ellis has done. Tolbert was a better player than Ellis.

 

[Nors]

Ellis never really has lived up to a #8 overall pick. Good solid player. Not an All Pro or game impactor that you would like to get out of that pick.

 

[jem88]

Ellis never really has lived up to a #8 overall pick. Good solid player. Not an All Pro or game impactor that you would like to get out of that pick.

Well given the number busts taken in the top-10 in recent years, I'd say that he was worth the pick (I wanted Moss at the time and still would have preferred him, but I've long since gotten over that.) Ellis is a lot like Maryland was- very solid with a good character, just not a blue-chip player.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Considering there was no Haley playing opposite him it was more impressive than anything Ellis has done. Tolbert was a better player than Ellis.

Overall, I believe Tolbert played with better talent most of his career. Ellis really hasn't played with any talent, to speak of, since his inception with the Dallas Cowboys. You could easily make the point that Ellis has accomplished simular things while being the focal point of the opposing offense.

It's all relative..

BTW, I view Ellis as a slightly better version of Tolbert myself.

 

[dbair1967]

Considering there was no Haley playing opposite him it was more impressive than anything Ellis has done. Tolbert was a better player than Ellis.

I guess thats your opinion, but the team Tolbert had around him was far better, and Tolbert wasnt even an everydown player...Ellis up till this yr has played virtually every down...this is the first yr of Ellis' career thats he's actually had some good players around him all over

I doubt you'd find alot of NFL people that would say Tolbert was a better all around player than Ellis

David

 

[junk]

Ellis never really has lived up to a #8 overall pick. Good solid player. Not an All Pro or game impactor that you would like to get out of that pick.

I agree to a certain extent. He hasn't been a superstar, but has been a good solid pick.

However, hindsight is always 20/20. Looking back, there were just a handful of players from that first round that you could classify as better than Ellis that were drafted after him.

Moss is obvious. Brooking and Spikes at LB. Faneca at guard (but you better not draft a dang guard at 8). Everything else was pretty much run of the mill. It was kind of a weak draft early.

 

[jem88]

I guess thats your opinion, but the team Tolbert had around him was far better, and Tolbert wasnt even an everydown player...Ellis up till this yr has played virtually every down...this is the first yr of Ellis' career thats he's actually had some good players around him all over

I doubt you'd find alot of NFL people that would say Tolbert was a better all around player than Ellis

David

But then we could say that Tolbert would have had more sacks were he given more snaps. We did a lot of rotating back then (a fundamental part of our success IMO) and that meant a guy like Tolbert coming off for Jeffcoat ( a very good lineman in his own right.) I have yet to see Ellis play at a Pro-Bowl level (actually he was coming close in his second year before he got hurt.) Tolbert on the other hand did in 1996 and I also think he got media attention due to the presence of guys like Haley and Deion. Anyways, I like having Ellis, but I'm not ready to call this a breakout year (which was the subject of the thread) when I've seen these fast starts before, only to see them dry up as the season progresses.

 

[jem88]

I agree to a certain extent. He hasn't been a superstar, but has been a good solid pick.

However, hindsight is always 20/20. Looking back, there were just a handful of players from that first round that you could classify as better than Ellis that were drafted after him.

Moss is obvious. Brooking and Spikes at LB. Faneca at guard (but you better not draft a dang guard at 8). Everything else was pretty much run of the mill. It was kind of a weak draft early.

Peter King, whose columns I usually take with a massive grain of salt, wrote a somewhat well-informed article on the hit and miss nature of top-10 picks. Considering the number of busts and the amount of money tied up in those busts, picking solid players like Ellis makes a lot of sense these days. Again, I would've loved Moss, but we have to remember that this was only several years after Lawrence Phillips made the Rams look like idiots for selecting him.

 

[AdamJT13]

Anyways, I like having Ellis, but I'm not ready to call this a breakout year (which was the subject of the thread)

I don't think that's the subject of this thread. It's about Ellis being able to play in the 3-4 and perform at the same level he did in the 4-3.

 

[p1_]

they're watching Ware lead the team in sacks, and Ellis get caught from behind returning a fumble recovery.

 

[dbair1967]

But then we could say that Tolbert would have had more sacks were he given more snaps. We did a lot of rotating back then (a fundamental part of our success IMO) and that meant a guy like Tolbert coming off for Jeffcoat ( a very good lineman in his own right.) I have yet to see Ellis play at a Pro-Bowl level (actually he was coming close in his second year before he got hurt.) Tolbert on the other hand did in 1996 and I also think he got media attention due to the presence of guys like Haley and Deion. Anyways, I like having Ellis, but I'm not ready to call this a breakout year (which was the subject of the thread) when I've seen these fast starts before, only to see them dry up as the season progresses.

first, Tolbert rotated alot until 95/96, then he began playing virtually every down...just because you play more downs doesnt necessarily mean you'll net more sacks...Jim Jeffcoat didnt play anywhere near as many downs as some of the other DL's, yet annaually either led the team or came close to leading in sacks

second, just because Ellis hasnt been voted to the league popularity contest/probowl, doesnt mean he's not one of the better all around DE's

third, who said anything about this being a breakout yr? He's had several good years before now...he annually gets 7-8-9 sacks, not every DE does that

David

 

[dbair1967]

I agree to a certain extent. He hasn't been a superstar, but has been a good solid pick.

However, hindsight is always 20/20. Looking back, there were just a handful of players from that first round that you could classify as better than Ellis that were drafted after him.

Moss is obvious. Brooking and Spikes at LB. Faneca at guard (but you better not draft a dang guard at 8). Everything else was pretty much run of the mill. It was kind of a weak draft early.

Keith Brooking is incredibly overrated and a huge liability in pass coverage..always has been...how he makes the probowls is a major mystery to me...Takeo Spikes is an excellent player, but I'd never draft a G in the top-10 and probably not even in the first rd...Faneca is a nice player, but he isnt an all world OL either

David

 

[ratpower]

So far, that garbage about Ellis having problems this year has been just that... garbage.
He is killing it with 3.5 sacks.

And like I said before the season, Glover is going to have his best season as a Cowboy yet. So far it's shaping up to be true. 3 sacks.

BP is right. Football players play football on Sunday, regardless of scheme.

All these doubters prior to the season about where do Ellis and Glover fit in are now nowhere to be found.

Great Post! Ellis has been a great player on this team for many years, it helps to have players around him now so he can get some of the attention he deserves. Everyone gets caught up in sacks but QB pressure can be just as important and glove, Ware and Ellis are bringing it....it's starting to get fun on the line like the old days of the mega rotation Tolbert/Maryland/J Jones/Haley/Jeffcoat/Lett/Casillas.... :starspin

 

[Dallas31]

I've always thought Ellis and Glover were football players.

I thought that they were basketball players for a while, but lately I started thinking that they are football players.

 

[jem88]

I don't think that's the subject of this thread. It's about Ellis being able to play in the 3-4 and perform at the same level he did in the 4-3.

Given this quote "He is killing it with 3.5 sacks", I don't think it's a stretch to infer that the author is this thread was saying that Ellis was on his way to a big year. Seeing as how Ellis has rarely, if ever, been "killing it" in the past, I don't see how it is about him performing at the same level as he did in the 4-3 (althought in my opinion he actually is performing up to his usual, hard-working, slightly above average level.)

 

[jem88]

first, Tolbert rotated alot until 95/96, then he began playing virtually every down...just because you play more downs doesnt necessarily mean you'll net more sacks...

So when he started playing virtually every down, his sack total went up, no? (ala 1996) I agree that playing more downs doesn't necessarily mean more sacks, but getting more plays in obvious passing situations certainly helps (as was the case with Jeffcoat.)

 

[AdamJT13]

Given this quote "He is killing it with 3.5 sacks", I don't think it's a stretch to infer that the author is this thread was saying that Ellis was on his way to a big year. Seeing as how Ellis has rarely, if ever, been "killing it" in the past, I don't see how it is about him performing at the same level as he did in the 4-3 (althought in my opinion he actually is performing up to his usual, hard-working, slightly above average level.)

If you read the entire post, it's clear that he's talking about Ellis being able to play in a 3-4 when many people doubted he could. The one quote you focused on might be overstating things, especially since he had six sacks at this time last season, but I don't see how you can construe the original post into saying Ellis is having a "breakthrough season."

 

[jem88]

If you read the entire post, it's clear that he's talking about Ellis being able to play in a 3-4 when many people doubted he could. The one quote you focused on might be overstating things, especially since he had six sacks at this time last season, but I don't see how you can construe the original post into saying Ellis is having a "breakthrough season."

Regarding the Ellis part of the post, I guess you can split it in two. I disagree (or at least am sceptical) about the 'killing it' part and agree with the second (about his adapting well to the new scheme.) I've never had too much doubt about Ellis' chances in this scheme as I've always viewed him as a hardworking player who seems to play 'bigger' than his size (I was surprised that Ellis didn't seem to have more confidence in his ability.) I just think Ellis will always be Ellis: a good player who will have a good chance at beating average O-lineman but also will receive the occasional beatdown (like Ogden gave him a few years back.) He's no Strahan or Peppers, but he's good enough.

The main issue I had with the original post was the triumphal, 'I told you so' nature of it.

 

[Smith22]

He's on pace for his usual season.

He's doing fine and the Dline rotation will prolong his career. Canty, Spears are our Future 3-4 DE's and Ellis is a nice role player. Good player - not great.

You hype up a guy like Shanle relentlessly but call a guy who has 3.5 sacks and is leading our team in QB pressures a "ROLE" player! Unreal......