Why draft a back 4th overall if you’re not willing to pay him?

[ABQCOWBOY]

lol - well, I don't think anyone was getting paid $60MM back in the 1970's, but some were getting paid well by the standards of the time. Besides, you said problem players back then were key players. That was wrong.

Nobody was getting paid even close to that but the real key here is that there was no Hard Cap. That's the problem right? I mean, you can pay anything you want and basically walk away from that deal if there is no CBA and there is no Hard Cap. I never said anything about key players being problem players or anything of the kind. I guess I would ask you what you are referring to there?

Today, right now, we are linked to a player and a contract on a deal of this magnitude. I mean, unless we are guaranteeing him a small amount of the overall deal we are linked. That is why those guys that you pay like that, they must be guys you want to marry to, so to speak. They are part of the team for a significant period of time and you are not just going to be able to walk away from contracts, if you are a team in the NFL.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Kinda the point? What, that a team that relies as heavily on the run as the Cowboys don't need a top tier RB? I didn't say anything remotely like that. The point was the opposite. If a team that is more pass oriented doesn't need a top tier RB, that's fine, but if your offense is going to heavily feature the running game merely "competent" isn't enough. That would be like a team heavily featuring the passing game but deciding it wasn't important to have a top level passer.

I know it's important for you to consider yourself infallible and say I'm wrong, so you'd said it, and we can leave it at that.

No........ you are in left field here.

"Well hell, anyone can carry the ball 20 times every once in awhile. That's not remotely a special quality in a RB."

You said this in post number 314. Yes, that is the point, anyone can carry teh ball 20 times every once in a while. And yes, correct again, that's not all that special. But, every once in a while, you need that so you need a back or two who is capable of giving you that. It doesn't have to be sustained, they don't have to be bell cows, they just have to be able to do that, if the need arises. The idea, in the NFL, is to have two or three decent guys who can give you snaps in the run game and thus, do the work of a single Bell Cow for much less cost. So yeah, kinda the point, what you said in your post 314. Is it now clear to you?

It is not a matter of importance, it's simply a matter of stating the case factually. You can be as right or as wrong as you want. I am going to state the case, as clearly and concisely as possible. If you find that you are on the wrong side of any given fact, then that's for you to understand and coincide with. It's not for me to insure that happens. I'll tell you the truth, you have to look at it reasonably and come to terms with it. The fact is, we don't need Zeke to make our Offense work. We can do it with multiple capable backs, rather then one super great back and yes, capable backs can be found anywhere in the NFL draft. They don't have to be #4 overall and it's honestly better if they are not.

Believe it or don't, everything I said here is 100% accurate and 100% the truth. Swim up stream if that's your preference, claim that you know it's important to "me" to be whatever, I don't care. The truth is that these are the facts and you can accept them or not. You won't be pigeon holing me into any position either way. What I said is fact, what you are saying is not. It's as simple as that.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Again a thousand yards is putrid. Teams do use more than 1 back so yeah only 9 rushed for a thousand. We also saw that nobody was scared of McFadden even with him 1000 yards....lol anyone who can't see the difference in Zeke' s effectiveness rinning over 1000 yards to Mcfadden's is just football stupid that's all to it.

OK, well, in 2018 there were 314 players who rushed the football in the NFL. All but 9 were putrid apparently and yet, somehow, teams found a way to make the rush work with all of these putrid players. They actually paid them to be putrid apparently. Wonders never cease right?

The issue and the answer is staring you right in the face and yet, you stare out into the ocean and shout to all who will listen, "Where's the Beach? I can't see the Beach from where I am standing." You are standing in the water and all you need to do is turn around and the beach is right there but you won't. You'ed rather shout at the world. OK, do that then. Nobody said McFadden was Zeke. Nobody said Zeke wasn't good. Hell, nobody even said that McFadden was good in 2015. In fact, I specifically made the point that he was not and what do you do? You try and compare the two as if that's what the discussion is about. Wake up, Coffee is almost gone, that's not what anybody is saying and the fact that you illustrate this, only lends more credibility to the idea that if we actually went out and got decent talent at RB (Not Zeke level) we could still run our offense at a very high level.

You are literally horrible at this Dre.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Folks, you do realize that Demarco, McFadden and Zeke all averaged very similar AYPC right?

In Murray's league leading rushing season, in McFadden's starting season and in Zeke's league leading season in 2018, here is what they all looked like, in terms of Average Yards Per Carry:

Murray 4.7
McFadden 4.6
Elliott 4.8

I mean, this just shows that we have one hell of a Rush Blocking OL. Is it really worth paying 60 mil for this kind of difference? I get it, Elliott is younger, faster, can carry the load. I get it but if you could get two or three backs who were a little less talented, who got a third of the touches and who average between 4.6 and 4.8, gave you 1500 yards on the ground, gave you 12 rushing TDs and gave you 5 or 6 hundred receiving yards, wouldn't you rather do that if they were cheaper?

 

[PUSHfold]

I wish some of you would realize the position zeke is in. They want to give him 400+ touches a season. He is entering his 4th season. Which is the last year on his rookie deal. He already lost his guaranteed money from this contract due to getting suspended. 1st round picks do not have a 5 year deal the 5th year is a TEAM option only. The player has no say so, and it is not guaranteed and cannot be negotiated by the player. So as of right now he is on a 1 year deal. If he plays great doesn't get injured, great the team will sign him to the 5th year option. But wait that's another 1 year deal. Let's say he plays great again doesn't get injured, time for zeke to get paid right? Wrong, now the team wants to franchise tag and have him play on another 1 year deal.

The NFL has the worst contract structure for players in any professional sport in the world, when it is also the most violent sport in the world. On top of that everyone knows RB's have the shortest career avg of any other position. If I'm zeke I'm holding out until I get paid. I'm not risking life and limb to play on 3 1 year deals. God forbid he gets a serious injury or something terrible happens like that kid in miami who lost his arm in a car accident he has no guarantees and no financial security at that point.

No financial security?
He's what? 23? He's already made more money in this time than 10-30 average people will their entire lives and yet he has no financial security?
The hell are you smoking man? I could live so good the rests of my life with 1/10th of the money he's made so far. Problem is these guys get used to certain life styles with their crew of 10+ people leeching off them and when they're not being paid 10m+ a year they still keep trying to live that lifestyle and end up broke. So what he'd not be able to go sip Cristal throwin benjamins to strippers...like I give a crap.

Honor the contract you signed, he's a straight knucklehead. I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for professional athletes who make tens of millions a year, they know what they're signing up for. If you're not a total moron entire generations of your family will be set for life with the money you're able to make. Nobody's fault but their own if they end up broke.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

He has never been wrong, just ask him..

I wouldn't say never. There are some very knowledgeable posters on this board, many who absolutely do know more then I. Just not here and certainly not ever with you. Sucks for you but I'd imagine you should be used to it by now.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

typo - substitute that you said the problem players were NOT key players.

I believe I said Corner Stone players as in Foundation guys, guys who are the face of your organization and I specifically am talking in terms of Salary Cape Era. None of the players you mentioned fit that description. I thought I clarified that but if that was unclear, you have my apologies. Never the less, the fact remains that you can't compare players who played before the CBA and the Hard Cap to the players who play now. Dynamics are completely different.

 

[Hennessy_King]

No financial security?
He's what? 23? He's already made more money in this time than 10-30 average people will their entire lives and yet he has no financial security?
The hell are you smoking man? I could live so good the rests of my life with 1/10th of the money he's made so far. Problem is these guys get used to certain life styles with their crew of 10+ people leeching off them and when they're not being paid 10m+ a year they still keep trying to live that lifestyle and end up broke. So what he'd not be able to go sip Cristal throwin benjamins to strippers...like I give a crap.

Honor the contract you signed, he's a straight knucklehead. I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for professional athletes who make tens of millions a year, they know what they're signing up for. If you're not a total moron entire generations of your family will be set for life with the money you're able to make. Nobody's fault but their own if they end up broke.

You're a moron. I hope you get a job where they keep you on minimum wage even after you get a promotion. Its being paid what youre worth and what is the market value of your profession.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

Folks, you do realize that Demarco, McFadden and Zeke all averaged very similar AYPC right?

In Murray's league leading rushing season, in McFadden's starting season and in Zeke's league leading season in 2018, here is what they all looked like, in terms of Average Yards Per Carry:

Murray 4.7
McFadden 4.6
Elliott 4.8

I mean, this just shows that we have one hell of a Rush Blocking OL. Is it really worth paying 60 mil for this kind of difference? I get it, Elliott is younger, faster, can carry the load. I get it but if you could get two or three backs who were a little less talented, who got a third of the touches and who average between 4.6 and 4.8, gave you 1500 yards on the ground, gave you 12 rushing TDs and gave you 5 or 6 hundred receiving yards, wouldn't you rather do that if they were cheaper?

Without a doubt I'm going 2-3 RBs on minimal salaries with defined roles

 

[OmerV]

I believe I said Corner Stone players as in Foundation guys, guys who are the face of your organization and I specifically am talking in terms of Salary Cape Era. None of the players you mentioned fit that description. I thought I clarified that but if that was unclear, you have my apologies. Never the less, the fact remains that you can't compare players who played before the CBA and the Hard Cap to the players who play now. Dynamics are completely different.

I would call Don Merideth and Harvey Martin and Lawrence Taylor and Ben Roethlesberger cornerstone players.

I agree that things are different now than pre-salary cap, and remember, that was also a time that was prior to unrestricted free agency. Trsmd had the ability to tie up players even after their contract expired, but today players can peddle their services to the highest bidder, and that's what causes salaries to be so high. That's the world in the NFL today, and teams have to live in it to compete. Of course, living in it sometimes means having to make hard decisions about who to pay and who to trade or let walk. That's the decision they have to make with Zeke

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I would call Don Merideth and Harvey Martin and Lawrence Taylor and Ben Roethlesberger cornerstone players.

I agree that things are different now than pre-salary cap, and remember, that was also a time that was prior to unrestricted free agency. Trsmd had the ability to tie up players even after their contract expired, but today players can peddle their services to the highest bidder, and that's what causes salaries to be so high. That's the world in the NFL today, and teams have to live in it to compete. Of course, living in it sometimes means having to make hard decisions about who to pay and who to trade or let walk. That's the decision they have to make with Zeke

I'm sure you would but the problem is the era of today. I don't care about Lawrence Taylor or Ruthlessraper or whatever other team, not Cowboys. You just can't compare players who played before the cap and the CBA. You can argue around that all you want but it's not the same. Martin and Merideth did not have guaranteed contracts and they could be cut at any time. That's just the way it was and you can not compare those players to players of today or contracts of today. Today, you are stuck with the player and the contract and the media attention received by the team over player conduct is 10K the exposure and the impact. Fans didn't know about all the things players were doing back in the day, we only found out later. There was no significant impact on the team and profits or revenue because of those kinds of issues, back then. Today, there is. Today, it's all very visible and it matters. Like it or not, that's the way it is today. Not saying it's fair or that you are wrong for maybe trying to point out that it is not fair, just saying that this is how it is now. I mean, it's not fair that Zeke or any player is held to a certain standard above players from other time frames but then again, it's also not fair that Zeke gets paid a lot more to play a game that is not nearly as hard so there is that. I mean, we all deal with this. It's not fair that young people have to deal with things today that I never had to deal with. It's not fair that young people today have it easier in many ways then I did either but it's life so I don't know what you do there.

I edited this post because I reread my earlier post and I thought it was a little too heavy handed. You have my apologies for that.

 

[CT Dal Fan]

The OP: Why draft a back 4th overall if you're not going to pay him?

We all tend to forget Zeke was drafted because of Tony Romo. The whole idea was to have Zeke help Romo extend his career and get a ring within two or three years. I honestly think the Cowboys would have been prepared to let Elliott walk after his rookie deal expired had he helped them win the Super Bowl with Romo at the helm.

They still might have those plans even though Romo's career effectively ended in the 2016 preseason.

 

[OmerV]

No........ you are in left field here.

"Well hell, anyone can carry the ball 20 times every once in awhile. That's not remotely a special quality in a RB."

You said this in post number 314. Yes, that is the point, anyone can carry teh ball 20 times every once in a while. And yes, correct again, that's not all that special. But, every once in a while, you need that so you need a back or two who is capable of giving you that. It doesn't have to be sustained, they don't have to be bell cows, they just have to be able to do that, if the need arises. The idea, in the NFL, is to have two or three decent guys who can give you snaps in the run game and thus, do the work of a single Bell Cow for much less cost. So yeah, kinda the point, what you said in your post 314. Is it now clear to you?

It is not a matter of importance, it's simply a matter of stating the case factually. You can be as right or as wrong as you want. I am going to state the case, as clearly and concisely as possible. If you find that you are on the wrong side of any given fact, then that's for you to understand and coincide with. It's not for me to insure that happens. I'll tell you the truth, you have to look at it reasonably and come to terms with it. The fact is, we don't need Zeke to make our Offense work. We can do it with multiple capable backs, rather then one super great back and yes, capable backs can be found anywhere in the NFL draft. They don't have to be #4 overall and it's honestly better if they are not.

Believe it or don't, everything I said here is 100% accurate and 100% the truth. Swim up stream if that's your preference, claim that you know it's important to "me" to be whatever, I don't care. The truth is that these are the facts and you can accept them or not. You won't be pigeon holing me into any position either way. What I said is fact, what you are saying is not. It's as simple as that.

You are grossly misrepresenting what I have said. I didn't characterize Zeke as any old RB who can carry the ball 20 times in an individual game every once in awhile, but you are acting as if I did.

I characterized Zeke was as a workhorse who averages 20+ carries a game (not just does it every once in a while) AND who has elite running skills and high level receiving skills (I can add good blocker too).

Isaiah Crowell or Alfred Blue or Wendell Smallwood can have an occasional 20 carry game, but that isn't remotely the same as averaging over 20 carries a game for 3 straight seasons, and doesn't remotely indicate they are as skilled or as effective at what they do as Zeke. They aren't even in the ballpark in terms of quantity or quality, yet you are ridiculously acting as if their once in a long while 20 carry game puts them on the same level as Zeke.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You are grossly misrepresenting what I have said. I didn't characterize Zeke as any old RB who can carry the ball 20 times in an individual game every once in awhile, but you are acting as if I did.

I characterized Zeke was as a workhorse who averages 20+ carries a game (not just does it every once in a while) AND who has elite running skills and high level receiving skills (I can add good blocker too).

Isaiah Crowell or Alfred Blue or Wendell Smallwood can have an occasional 20 carry game, but that isn't remotely the same as averaging over 20 carries a game for 3 straight seasons, and doesn't remotely indicate they are as skilled or as effective at what they do as Zeke. They aren't even in the ballpark in terms of quantity or quality, yet you are ridiculously acting as if their once in a long while 20 carry game puts them on the same level as Zeke.

OMG, I never said you did Characterize him in that way. Where do you get this stuff from? I specifically said that Zeke is not those guys. I specifically made the point that Zeke is a Bellcow back. I specifically said that he has elite skills and I specifically said that we don't need that and that we can have a very productive run game with three good NFL talents who are a step below but can all play.

I specifically explained that we don't need three guys that can give you 20 a game over a 16 game season. I specifically said that occasionally, you come across a game where you need a back to give you 20 and you need to have a guy who is capable of doing that on occasion. I specifically said these things.

I mean, how do you get on the totally wrong page here consistently?

 

[Jipper]

they are paying him,

3m in 2019
9m in 2020

it's called a contract

 

[OmerV]

I'm sure you would but the problem here is that you are not reading or you are purposefully, not acknowledging. I don't care about Lawrence Taylor or Ruthlessraper or whatever other team, not Cowboys. Secondly, I have specifically said that you can't compare players who played before the cap and the CBA. You can argue around that all you want but it's not the same. Martin and Merideth did not have guaranteed contracts and they could be cut at any time. That's just the way it was and you can not compare those players to players of today or contracts of today. Today, you are stuck with the player and the contract and the media attention received by the team over player conduct is 10K the exposure and the impact. Fans didn't know about all the things players were doing back in the day, we only found out later. There was no significant impact on the team and profits or revenue because of those kinds of issues, back then. Today, there is. Today, it's all very visible and it matters. So you can bring up the Harvey Martins and the LT of the world till the Cows come home but it's not going to matter one bit because none of them are relevant to todays market. Like it or not, that's the way it is.

Tell me anyone, besides yourself trying to protect your agenda, that wouldn' say Merideth, Taylor and Roethlesberger are not cornerstone players.

Okay, so you don't care about Non-Cowboys (lets narrow the field until it fits the narrative), but would the Steelers or Giants have been dominant teams without Ben and Taylor.

Remember the basis for this line of discussion was my point that while it's a nice idea to have a team full of no problem players, the reality is a team cannot win if they limit themselves like that.

In the end, at the draft a team can only rely on what is has learned and what it believes on draft day. It's not an exact science, and some players become problems. The more talent a player has, the more a team may be willing to take a chance on him as long as the college transgressions weren't too egregious. If a guy got caught in a dorm smoking pot, for example, but he averages 132 yards and 1.4 TD's per game his last 2 years of college (like Zeke), or has a 21.5 sack season (like Joey Bosa - remember, he got suspended in college for smoking pot), a team is more willing to take a chance. I don't think teams take a Reefer Madness approach to pot these days, and they will take a chance on a player actually growing up a bit.

 

[Rayman70]

not going to pay him? HE HAS A CONTRACT AND IS SCHEDULED TO GET AROUND 3 MIL THIS YEAR AND 9 MIL NEXT YEAR. That's hardly chump change. This entire idea the Jones' are lowballing the player is ridiculous.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Tell me anyone, besides yourself trying to protect your agenda, that wouldn' say Merideth, Taylor and Roethlesberger are not cornerstone players.

Okay, so you don't care about Non-Cowboys (lets narrow the field until it fits the narrative), but would the Steelers or Giants have been dominant teams without Ben and Taylor.

Remember the basis for this line of discussion was my point that while it's a nice idea to have a team full of no problem players, the reality is a team cannot win if they limit themselves like that.

In the end, at the draft a team can only rely on what is has learned and what it believes on draft day. It's not an exact science, and some players become problems. The more talent a player has, the more a team may be willing to take a chance on him as long as the college transgressions weren't too egregious. If a guy got caught in a dorm smoking pot, for example, but he averages 132 yards and 1.4 TD's per game his last 2 years of college (like Zeke), or has a 21.5 sack season (like Bosa - remember, he got suspended in college for smoking pot), a team is more willing to take a chance. I don't think teams take a Reefer Madness approach to pot these days, and they will take a chance on a player actually growing up a bit.

OK, we're done here. Go back and look at the post you reference here 331.

You want to spend 60 mil on Zeke, that's fine. It's not gonna happen but you do you. Maybe you can go back and get Rothlessraper, LT and the Ghost of Dandy Don to come play. Maybe you can pay them all top dollar. I wish you good luck.

 

[Rayman70]

they are paying him,

3m in 2019
9m in 2020

it's called a contract

THANK YOU^^^ FACTS

 

[kskboys]

they are paying him,

3m in 2019
9m in 2020

it's called a contract

Poor bastidge, how is he ever going to eat.