"Win-or-go-home" from a team point of view

[Rockport]

Romo threw the opening night game away vs the Jets with 2 of his 10 turnovers that season. Even Romo put the blame on himself for that loss. That game ended with another Romo ill-timed turnover. Three weeks later vs Detroit Romo had a monumental second half meltdown that resulted in the biggest blown lead in franchise history. His second half performance clearly cost the Cowboys that game. The following week vs NE Garrett botched that game with conservative play calling and deciding to take the ball out of Romo's hands in the final 3 minutes against the 31st ranked pass defense. The Cowboys could have easily wrapped that game up with a couple of short passes to Dez and Austin. He put the game in the hands of his defense still feeling the burn of Romo's 3 second half int's the week before. Allowing his defense that couldn't stop Stafford from getting the ball in the end zone in the 4th quarter to try and stop TOM BRADY and company from scoring was a dumb coaching move.

In week 13 against a crap Cardinals team Garrett's poor game management again reared its ugly head resulting in him icing his own kicker. Once again he didn't trust Romo with the ball and decided to settle for a 48 yard FG attempt. In week 14 Romo had a chance to pull off a huge play to Austin but the ball appeared to be slightly over thrown. It could have led to a win but in the end Eli got it done when it mattered most. In week 17 with the division title on the line and a playoff birth Romo had 2 turnovers and missed a wide open Dez that would have resulted in a big play early in the game that could have given the Cowboys some early momentum.

I give up. If you can't see that Romo is good enough to lead this team to a Super Bowl then you have the right to believe it. It's just disappointing to see posters such as yourself come here and time after time bash our QB. It sucks.

 

[percyhoward]

These are the Cowboys' NFL ranks for the last two seasons combined -- in just about every passing category I can think of. This includes all 32 games played in 2011-12. Anyone who uses examples from selected games in an effort to obscure the huge gap between the overall performances of our pass offense and our pass defense is fooling no one except the lazy and uninformed.

Anyone who tries to downplay the significance of this huge gap by saying that pass defense is less important than pass offense is fooling...no one with a lick of sense, basically.

Yards
pass offense 5th
pass defense 21st

Touchdowns
pass offense 5th
pass defense 14th

Interceptions
pass offense 16th
pass defense 29th

Yards per Attempt
pass offense 9th
pass defense 25th

Completion Percentage
pass offense 3rd
pass defense 22nd

1st Downs
pass offense 6th
pass defense 23rd

Passer Rating (only the most important one, as it relates to wins)
pass offense 7th
pass defense 27th

 

[KJJ]

If it's true for every QB, then what makes the opponent's passing performance any less important than your own?


Your answer depends on a deus ex machina where good luck comes in out of nowhere and solves your problem. Assume that all luck is equal and that there are as many TD dropped as INT dropped. Can you think of a game in which a team passed poorly against a pass defense that didn't perform well?

I've already given my answers to everyone of your questions. You keep repeating them as if you think you keep repeating them enough I'll give in and give you the answers you want to hear. LOL I have my opinion you have yours and we don't agree. If some want to spin or twist what I'm saying ether to fit an agenda or just to stir things up because they have an issue that opinionated and objective and not some Sally Sunshine that's their problem. I know what I've said and have been very detailed. I call things the way I see it regardless of how many feathers it may ruffle. You never gave me an answer whether a HC should be judged off their W/L and championship record. I'll ask again is it fair that Vince Lombardi has his name engraved on the SB trophy and not his team when it was his players that won those championships?

It's a fact that every HC is a product of their players primarily their QB. Would Bill Walsh have had the success he did without Montana? Would Belichick be the coach he is today had Tom Brady not come along? Would Landry have ever won a championship without Staubach? Is it fair that a HC is judged and honored with a HOF fame induction because of their regular and postseason W/L record? Some coaches are labeled geniuses because they had great players and a special QB who could pull out victories in the final seconds of championships games.

 

[KJJ]

I give up. If you can't see that Romo is good enough to lead this team to a Super Bowl then you have the right to believe it. It's just disappointing to see posters such as yourself come here and time after time bash our QB. It sucks.

I wish you would give up because you're just one of those who keeps accusing me of saying things that I never said. If it's not an agenda some of you have then what's going on can't read? I make a few comments and some just read what they want into them. Where did I say in the post you quoted that Romo isn't good enough to lead the Cowboys to a SB? What sucks is some here are bent on giving their own take on every comment some of us make about Romo. Some of us don't have an issue with Romo being credited with a W/L win or go home record. All QB's are credited with a win or go home record if they've been to the playoffs or have been involved in a season finale elimination game. If Romo's playoff resume wasn't so small and the Cowboys hadn't missed the playoffs the last 3 years no one would be including the 3 season finale elimination game losses on his record.

No one from ESPN or any other network is putting Romo's 1-6 win or go home record entirely on him. it's just being twisted that way because this is a FAN board and that's what FANS do. They think this has just been created for Romo and the Cowboys. Some here act like the ones who played and coached the game don't know what the heck they're talking about. You claimed it's well documented that Romo doesn't have a good supporting cast for the second time show me where's that's been documented?

 

[Section446]

I give up. If you can't see that Romo is good enough to lead this team to a Super Bowl then you have the right to believe it. It's just disappointing to see posters such as yourself come here and time after time bash our QB. It sucks.

To be fair, there are very few QB's that fall into the category of being good enough to lead their team to a title. If Romo was 26 years old, I wouldn't be the least bit worried. Unfortunately, he's an "older" QB, still making the same mistakes he did in year one as the starter. The guy is a very good QB, but inconsistency, and untimely turnovers keep him from joining the greats.

 

[DejectedFan1996]

I was listening to Warren Sapp today talking about Romo. He said something to the effect that Romo had I think 5-(?) 4th qtr combacks in the games where the defense eventually lost the game for the Cowboys. He said that Romo threw for 62 times in 2 games because he had no running game! He said that the only way Romo is going to be at his best is if he has a running game, an oline, and a defense that can keep a lead. And this is from a media guy, Warren Sapp.

Would that be this same Warren Sapp?

Warren Sapp: Tony Romo doesn't have the potential to raise his game in postseason

 

[ufcrules1]

To be fair, there are very few QB's that fall into the category of being good enough to lead their team to a title. If Romo was 26 years old, I wouldn't be the least bit worried. Unfortunately, he's an "older" QB, still making the same mistakes he did in year one as the starter. The guy is a very good QB, but inconsistency, and untimely turnovers keep him from joining the greats.

I agree with this. If he doesn't change he will have no shot at the hall either. I feel the likelihood of him changing is very slim considering he still makes the same mistakes he has made since he started like.. throwing off his back foot, not taking sacks when he should, not throwing the ball away when he should, etc. I also hope I am very wrong as well but it seems like the same ole every year.

 

[Section446]

I agree with this. If he doesn't change he will have no shot at the hall either. I feel the likelihood of him changing is very slim considering he still makes the same mistakes he has made since he started like.. throwing off his back foot, not taking sacks when he should, not throwing the ball away when he should, etc. I also hope I am very wrong as well but it seems like the same ole every year.

That's what's so frustrating about him. Part of what makes him a damn good QB is that he's willing to take stupid chances, on the other hand, what makes me want to throw my remote at my TV on Sunday's is the fact that he's willing to take stupid chances. When it works, he's a genius, a play-maker, etc... When it doesn't work, people are calling for Orton to start. I just think that at his age, he's matured as much as he's going to mature as a QB. When the "top NFL QB's" list comes out, people usually go crazy when guys like Stafford and Ryan are ahead of Romo. They aren't ahead of him because they are a better QB right now, they are ahead of him because they are so young, that they have not yet fully matured as a QB. I really really want to fully support Romo, but I just can't bring myself to it. He just doesn't come off to me as a guy who is destined to be a champion.

 

[Doomsday101]

That's what's so frustrating about him. Part of what makes him a damn good QB is that he's willing to take stupid chances, on the other hand, what makes me want to throw my remote at my TV on Sunday's is the fact that he's willing to take stupid chances. When it works, he's a genius, a play-maker, etc... When it doesn't work, people are calling for Orton to start. I just think that at his age, he's matured as much as he's going to mature as a QB. When the "top NFL QB's" list comes out, people usually go crazy when guys like Stafford and Ryan are ahead of Romo. They aren't ahead of him because they are a better QB right now, they are ahead of him because they are so young, that they have not yet fully matured as a QB.

Problem is when he is not taking chances the offense stalls out. Way to fix it get more production out of others on offense so that Romo is not forced into taking as many chances just to move the team down the field.

 

[superpunk]

I'm looking for a straight answer to my question. Preferably one that doesn't try to count incompletions as interceptions.

Better luck next time. You tried.

 

[percyhoward]

I have my opinion you have yours and we don't agree...

No kidding. Obviously we have different opinions. We're past the point of realizing we don't agree, and we're discussing the validity of each other's opinions. Very specifically, we were talking about the performance of pass offense vs. the performance of pass defense. You said one is more important than the other.

Since every offensive pass play also involves a pass defense, saying pass offense is more important goes against logic. In other words, you're making an illogical distinction. So I naturally have to ask you what you base your distinction on. That's where we are in the discussion. If you can't answer, then what's the point of all the generalities you went into in your last post, except to try to hide the fact that you can't answer?

Name one pass play that doesn't involve both offense and defense.

If you can't do that, then the distinction you're making falls apart. You'll still have your opinion, and I'll still have mine. I'm saying that your opinion can be distinguished not so much for the fact that it "ruffles feathers," as for the fact that it makes no sense.

Everybody has an opinion. There's no getting around the fact that valid opinions absolutely must make sense.

 

[Section446]

Problem is when he is not taking chances the offense stalls out. Way to fix it get more production out of others on offense so that Romo is not forced into taking as many chances just to move the team down the field.

Absolutely, I would prefer that we not have to rely solely on Romo to put the offense on his back. Some QB's shine in that role, he's just not one of them.

 

[Doomsday101]

Absolutely, I would prefer that we not have to rely solely on Romo to put the offense on his back. Some QB's shine in that role, he's just not one of them.

I don't know of any that shine when others around them are not making the plays on the other end. Brady is great but then Welker does not let him down I don't see him dropping balls or letting the defender get inside on him on the slant routs.
In the end for me it is getting production out of the offense meaning players Romo including stepping up and making plays. Romo can't make plays if the guy on the other end does not finish the play. The play never goes as desinged if the OL is not stopping pass rusher from flying into the back field. Romo is not going to do it on his own but then no QB does. There are others making it happen as well. In many clutch situation I see a guy drop a ball so now we punt or a guy running a wrong rout leaving Romo to fend for himself. Yes Romo will make poor throws at times and takes risky chances but when he doesn't this offense is not moving.

 

[dstovall5]

I don't know of any that shine when others around them are not making the plays on the other end. Brady is great but then Welker does not let him down I don't see him dropping balls or letting the defender get inside on him on the slant routs.
In the end for me it is getting production out of the offense meaning players Romo including stepping up and making plays. Romo can't make plays if the guy on the other end does not finish the play. The play never goes as desinged if the OL is not stopping pass rusher from flying into the back field. Romo is not going to do it on his own but then no QB does. There are others making it happen as well. In many clutch situation I see a guy drop a ball so now we punt or a guy running a wrong rout leaving Romo to fend for himself. Yes Romo will make poor throws at times and takes risky chances but when he doesn't this offense is not moving.

Didn't last year W.Welker have a crucial drop in the playoffs that dismantled that pats Super Bowl chances? I believe the year before he also had a very crucial drop in the playoffs as well. Mrs. Brady had a message for W.Welker after that game too.

 

[Doomsday101]

Didn't last year W.Welker have a crucial drop in the playoffs that dismantled that pats Super Bowl chances? I believe the year before he also had a very crucial drop in the playoffs as well. Mrs. Brady had a message for W.Welker after that game too.

True and the results were the all mighty Brady and the Pats did not go to the SB correct? Meaning it was not the fact Bardy can't get it done but unless the guy on the other ends does his job then the results are a loss. Brady can get the pass there what he can't do is block for himself and make the catch if others fail to do the job then how great of a individual player the QB may be is all for naught.

 

[dstovall5]

True and the results were the all mighty Brady and the Pats did not go to the SB correct? Meaning it was not the fact Bardy can't get it done but unless the guy on the other ends does his job then the results are a loss. Brady can get the pass there what he can't do is block for himself and make the catch if others fail to do the job then how great of a individual player the QB may be is all for naught.

Yup, takes a team effort to get the job done, which is why Dallas has been in mediocrity for 2 years now in a row. If it was only about the QB we'd make the playoffs every year, but that's not the case and football is the ultimate team sport.

 

[Doomsday101]

Yup, takes a team effort to get the job done, which is why Dallas has been in mediocrity for 2 years now in a row. If it was only about the QB we'd make the playoffs every year, but that's not the case and football is the ultimate team sport.

I agree. That is not to day Romo has not made bad mistakes he has, he has also turned a lot of plays from disaster into big plays for the Cowboys. However when you are forced to make plays like that you will end up making big mistakes. Dallas just cannot continue to rely on the busted play to put points on the board.

Romo may take the blame alone but to win is going to take several players stepping up and doing the job.

 

[KJJ]

No kidding. Obviously we have different opinions. We're past the point of realizing we don't agree, and we're discussing the validity of each other's opinions. Very specifically, we were talking about the performance of pass offense vs. the performance of pass defense. You said one is more important than the other.

Since every offensive pass play also involves a pass defense, saying pass offense is more important goes against logic. In other words, you're making an illogical distinction. So I naturally have to ask you what you base your distinction on. That's where we are in the discussion. If you can't answer, then what's the point of all the generalities you went into in your last post, except to try to hide the fact that you can't answer?

Name one pass play that doesn't involve both offense and defense.

If you can't do that, then the distinction you're making falls apart. You'll still have your opinion, and I'll still have mine. I'm saying that your opinion can be distinguished not so much for the fact that it "ruffles feathers," as for the fact that it makes no sense.

Everybody has an opinion. There's no getting around the fact that valid opinions absolutely must make sense.

You're the one talking about the performance of pass offense vs the performance of pass defense. You've been hammering it for the past several pages because you won't accept my answer or opinion to your original question. This all started on page 11 post #213 when you said: I'll try a more direct approach. Simple question: What's more important: the performance of your QB, or the performance of your pass defense? I gave you the answer and chose the performance of your QB. The performance of your "QB" isn't just about passing the football it's about displaying poise, leadership and taking care of the football especially when games are on the line. It's about stepping up their game when the games matter most. The performance of your QB takes in a wide area.The duel threat QB's have added another element that adds to their performance.

They may not have a great passing day but are able to make some key plays with their legs that help lead their team to a victory. Vick and Vince Young were drafted high primarily because of what they could do with their legs. It's not just a QB's ability to pass that makes them a playmaker. Part of what makes Romo a good QB is his ability to slip and avoid defenders. This is what makes Russell Wilson so good. It's a QB's athleticism that adds to their performance. According to your research Romo had over 105.0 red zone passer rating and in the same post said the Cowboys ranked 7th in FG attempts which means they're not scoring many TD's in the red zone. Even though Romo has a high red zone passer rating the Cowboys have struggled in the red zone due to a poor running game and penalties that have caused drives to bog down forcing them to have to settle for FG attempts.

You're not going to win championships in todays game with a poor performance by your QB but teams have won many games having a poor pass defense performance. The Ravens just won a SB with their pass defense giving up over 300 yards. Kaepernick accounted for 364 total yards vs the Ravens defense but he only accounted for one TD and had a turnover. It's about SCORING not yards. Defenses have been shredded by passing yards but have been able to make one huge play that won the game. A QB can pass for 450 yards but one costly pick at the wrong time can cost their team the game. As I keep telling you it's not all about passing it's about scoring TD's and not turning the ball over. Passing yards don't win games avoiding mistakes and scoring TD's is what wins games. This is was why Flacco was so good during the postseason. Yards have to equate into TD's or they're meaningless. I've gone through all of this in detail more than once and if you don't care for my answers or opinions that's your problem. You claimed it's a QB's high passer rating that contributes most to wins which means the performance of your QB is vital to winning games.

 

[superpunk]

Lots of typing just to avoid saying that you're wrong.

"We're not talking about what this thread has been about since the drop, we're talking about whatever obscure anecdote I can come up with that I think will support my misunderstanding."

 

[KJJ]

Everybody has an opinion. There's no getting around the fact that valid opinions absolutely must make sense.

Your opinion is that ESPN and the other network experts who've played and coached the game don't know what they're talking about because you're under the assumption they're pinning the Cowboys 1-6 win or go home record entirely on Romo. How much sense does that opinion make? I've never heard one expert say it's more Romo's record than the teams. That's just Cowboy FANS reading what they want into what's being said. All QB's, HC's and teams have a W/L record. How about answering these questions that you've avoided at least twice. Should a HC be given a W/L and championship record and be judged off it? Is it fair that Vince Lombardi has his name engraved on the SB trophy when it was his players that won those championships? Is it fair that HC's get elected to the HOF due to the accomplishments of their teams and the help of their assistant coaches? The HC gets either all the glory or all the blame is that fair? The Bears 15-1 record in 85 isn't on Buddy Ryans coaching record even though he was responsible for the defense that won that championship in 85 That 15-1 record is on Ditka's record because he was the HC is that fair?

It's a fact that every HC is a product of their players primarily their QB. Would Bill Walsh have had the success he did without Montana? Would Belichick be the coach he is today had Tom Brady not come along? Would Landry have ever won a championship without Staubach? Is it fair that a HC is judged and honored with a HOF fame induction because of their regular and postseason W/L record? Some coaches are labeled geniuses because they had great players and a special QB who could pull out victories in the final seconds of championships games. Who do you think is more responsible for the success of a team the QB or the HC? Who was more responsible for the Colts reaching the SB in 09 Peyton Manning or Jim Caldwell?