"Win-or-go-home" from a team point of view

[KJJ]

You took 1 game out of 16 a season in which the Bears had already clinched and went 15-1 playing on the road vs a good team who was still fighting for a playoff spot. No doubt Marino is a great QB but Chicago faced other great QB and when it counted the most they killed those QB's. Yes it is spinning taking 1 game out of a season but then the guy who loves to accuse others of spinning does not. Give it a rest.

By the Way how many SB rings does Marino have? Yeah that is right NONE

I guess since it is the QB or HC it must have been Don Shula or Jimmy Johnsons fault

I don't twist or fabricate others comments and don't make this personal. I took 1 game out of 16 because it was the only game the great 85 Bears lost. Marino made that defense look ordinary. The Bears may have already clinched but are you saying they laid down that night? LOL They were looking to go undefeated and that was a Monday Night game that the entire Nation was watching. That was the most eagerly anticipated Monday Night game ever. The Bears were breathing fire coming out of the tunnel that night they were on a mission. They may have killed other great QB's that season but none had the quick release that Marino had. It was like Ali going up against George Forman styles make fights.

Forman destroyed Fraizer a great fighter due to Fraziers style but he couldn't do anything against Ali who Fraizer had great success against. Certain QB's can throw a defense off and Marino's quick release was a problem for a lot of teams which is why he ended his career as the all-time leading passer. He was the first QB in history to pass for 5000 yards and he did it in an era where 4000 yard passers were rare. Marino didn't win a SB but he held a number of all-time passing records which made his career. He was the greatest pure passer of his era regardless that he didn't have a SB win. The QB and HC receives most of the credit and most of the blame sorry some of you are having a difficult time accepting something that's always been like that.

 

[5Stars]

He just said Romo is just as good as Marino!

lmao

That is not funny!

 

[Doomsday101]

Well, when you consider that football is not a one man sport then you have to be concerned about the team.

It would be cool if someone could post Romo's numbers for the time he's been the starting QB in years vs. the numbers that Marino had in the same period of time. Now, I hope someone does not spin this into Romo is as great as Marino!

True. Dan is one of the best pure pocket passers of all time. As for Romo he has some very good career stats some that rank him high on the all time list. I think if he can add team accompishment to that then yes he would have a very good chance. On the other hand Moon is in the HOF

 

[jobberone]

I'm talking about the TD to turnover ratio in win or go home games. Usually when QB's start turning the ball over in these games it leads to them struggling. It's in win or go home games that a QB's TD to turnover ratio can really impact the outcome of a game especially on the road. Turnovers by a QB in playoff games can drastically change the momentum of a game and cause a QB to lose their poise and confidence.

Multiple turnovers by a QB in elimination games "almost" always leads to a QB struggling and a loss. Eli had 3 turnovers vs the Panthers in the playoffs in 05 and finished the game with a passer rating of 35.3. In Flacco's back to back AFC title game losses in 08 and 09 his 5 turnovers resulted in passer ratings of 18.2 and 48.4. Once it starts going bad for a QB in the playoffs they can't seem to right the ship.

I just told you that any team with a -2 turnover differential is only winning that game 20% of the time. That's all inclusive of any and all stats no matter what team or QB. It doesn't matter the circumstances of the game. I then told you you would have to look at individual games before drawing any conclusions about a particular QB. And PH told you that was a problem due to the small sample size and I mentioned other problems. Everything you said is correct above. Of course if you turn the ball over you dig your team a hole.

Not sure if this was the thread but some of us talked about probability outcomes giving in game circumstances. Would that change if you changed QBs? Probably some in some games but that's problematic and hypothetical.

It appears you have blinders on and every answer is back to the same mantra. That's great for answering difficult questions from the media when you're a political figure or used to not answer specific questions that the media asks a HC like Garrett. Feed them the party line and all roads lead to a few pat answers. It's just not worth debating under those circumstances.

 

[5Stars]

True. Dan is one of the best pure pocket passers of all time. As for Romo he has some very good career stats some that rank him high on the all time list. I think if he can add team accompishment to that then yes he would have a very good chance. On the other hand Moon is in the HOF

That is what I thought. I knew he has some records but was not sure of what they are. I guess we will find out Romo's legacy once he retires. But, IMO, he needs to have at least one SB before he even has a chance because so many in the media hate the guy, and that's not counting the supposed Cowboy fans that hate him!

 

[KJJ]

True. Dan is one of the best pure pocket passers of all time. As for Romo he has some very good career stats some that rank him high on the all time list. I think if he can add team accompishment to that then yes he would have a very good chance. On the other hand Moon is in the HOF

Most of Romo's stats including yards and TD's rank behind several of his peers every season. Not once has he ever led the league in passing. Marino's numbers never ranked behind several of his peers each season his were near or at the top most seasons. Romo has no chance at the HOF unless he wins at least 2 SB's. He's going to have to accomplish a lot to overcome the perception the fans and media have of him. Moon is only in the HOF because he's ranked in the top 5 all-time passing leaders plus his accomplishments in the CFL were taken into consideration because it's the Pro Football HOF not the NFL HOF.

 

[5Stars]

I don't twist or fabricate others comments and don't make this personal. I took 1 game out of 16 because it was the only game the great 85 Bears lost. Marino made that defense look ordinary. The Bears may have already clinched but are you saying they laid down that night? LOL They were looking to go undefeated and that was a Monday Night game that the entire Nation was watching. That was the most eagerly anticipated Monday Night game ever. The Bears were breathing fire coming out of the tunnel that night they were on a mission. They may have killed other great QB's that season but none had the quick release that Marino had. It was like Ali going up against George Forman styles make fights.

Forman destroyed Fraizer a great fighter due to Fraziers style but he couldn't do anything against Ali who Fraizer had great success against. Certain QB's can throw a defense off and Marino's quick release was a problem for a lot of teams which is why he ended his career as the all-time leading passer. He was the first QB in history to pass for 5000 yards and he did it in an era where 4000 yard passers were rare. Marino didn't win a SB but he held a number of all-time passing records which made his career. He was the greatest pure passer of his era regardless that he didn't have a SB win. The QB and HC receives most of the credit and most of the blame sorry some of you are having a difficult time accepting something that's always been like that.

So, now your are trying to use an analogy about boxing which is one on one vs. a team 53 against 53?

omg-smh

 

[xwalker]

I just told you that any team with a -2 turnover differential is only winning that game 20% of the time. That's all inclusive of any and all stats no matter what team or QB. It doesn't matter the circumstances of the game. I then told you you would have to look at individual games before drawing any conclusions about a particular QB. And PH told you that was a problem due to the small sample size and I mentioned other problems. Everything you said is correct above. Of course if you turn the ball over you dig your team a hole.

Not sure if this was the thread but some of us talked about probability outcomes giving in game circumstances. Would that change if you changed QBs? Probably some in some games but that's problematic and hypothetical.

It appears you have blinders on and every answer is back to the same mantra. That's great for answering difficult questions from the media when you're a political figure or used to not answer specific questions that the media asks a HC like Garrett. Feed them the party line and all roads lead to a few pat answers. It's just not worth debating under those circumstances.

Do interceptions cause a team to lose or does losing cause interceptions?

There were many times where Romo could either try to force the ball to a receiver or just be content with going 3-and-out. There were also times where he just screwed up. It would be great if there was a statistic that could differentiate interceptions due to stupid decisions from those that are more of a calculated gamble.

 

[Doomsday101]

I don't twist or fabricate others comments and don't make this personal. I took 1 game out of 16 because it was the only game the great 85 Bears lost. Marino made that defense look ordinary. The Bears may have already clinched but are you saying they laid down that night? LOL They were looking to go undefeated and that was a Monday Night game that the entire Nation was watching. That was the most eagerly anticipated Monday Night game ever. The Bears were breathing fire coming out of the tunnel that night they were on a mission. They may have killed other great QB's that season but none had the quick release that Marino had. It was like Ali going up against George Forman styles make fights.

Forman destroyed Fraizer a great fighter due to Fraziers style but he couldn't do anything against Ali who Fraizer had great success against. Certain QB's can throw a defense off and Marino's quick release was a problem for a lot of teams which is why he ended his career as the all-time leading passer. He was the first QB in history to pass for 5000 yards and he did it in an era where 4000 yard passers were rare. Marino didn't win a SB but he held a number of all-time passing records which made his career. He was the greatest pure passer of his era regardless that he didn't have a SB win. The QB and HC receives most of the credit and most of the blame sorry some of you are having a difficult time accepting something that's always been like that.

Again you take 1 game the Bears face other HOF QB and proved defense can also destroy a QB and make him moot, or what Montana is not great" He is not a HOF and in the mean time how many SB does Marino have> Not a single one for all his greatness he has no SB so then what it was the HC? Geez QB is important no one ever said it wasn't but it takes a team to win a SB no matter how good your QB is. I really do not see how you can't comprehend this. You spout off about Marino and yet he has no SB yet it is all the QB and HC?

 

[5Stars]

Again you take 1 game the Bears face other HOF QB and proved defense can also destroy a QB and make him moot, or what Montana is not great" He is not a HOF and in the mean time how many SB does Marino have> Not a single one for all his greatness he has no SB so then what it was the HC? Geez QB is important no one ever said it wasn't but it takes a team to win a SB no matter how good your QB is. I really do not see how you can't comprehend this. You spout off about Marino and yet he has no SB yet it is all the QB and HC?

I guess Don Shula must have sucked because Marino does not have a SB.

 

[KJJ]

I just told you that any team with a -2 turnover differential is only winning that game 20% of the time. That's all inclusive of any and all stats no matter what team or QB. It doesn't matter the circumstances of the game. I then told you you would have to look at individual games before drawing any conclusions about a particular QB. And PH told you that was a problem due to the small sample size and I mentioned other problems. Everything you said is correct above. Of course if you turn the ball over you dig your team a hole.

Not sure if this was the thread but some of us talked about probability outcomes giving in game circumstances. Would that change if you changed QBs? Probably some in some games but that's problematic and hypothetical.

It appears you have blinders on and every answer is back to the same mantra. That's great for answering difficult questions from the media when you're a political figure or used to not answer specific questions that the media asks a HC like Garrett. Feed them the party line and all roads lead to a few pat answers. It's just not worth debating under those circumstances.

From what I've seen the past few seasons QB's who have more turnovers than TD's in win or go home games win very few of them. Romo has never won an elimination game where he's had more turnovers than TD's. Eli has never won an elimination game having more turnovers than TD's. Flacco has only won 1 playoff game when having more turnovers than TD's. Naturally there's a few exceptions to the rule but more times than not a QB having more turnovers than TD's in playoff game will result in a loss.

 

[jobberone]

The reason I responded was that you mentioned Graham. I had intended to put him in with Starr, Montana, and Warner.

And wouldn't you know it, the Browns had the best pass defenses of the 50s, the Packers had the best pass defenses of the 60s, the 49ers had the best pass defenses of the 80s, and even the Rams held opposing QB to season ratings of 64.1 and 69.9 in their Super Bowl years.

It just keeps coming back to "team," which in a team sport shouldn't be a surprise, I guess.

That doesn't surprise me at all. I'd bet the Browns had one of the best or best scoring % and RZ success as well as running the ball and defending all around. Those were some great teams and that's way part of Graham's success although he was apparently an amazing QB/athlete/competitor.

 

[jobberone]

From what I've seen the past few seasons QB's who have more turnovers than TD's in win or go home games win very few of them. Romo has never won an elimination game where he's had more turnovers than TD's. Eli has never won an elimination game having more turnovers than TD's. Flacco has only won 1 playoff game when having more turnovers than TD's. Naturally there's a few exceptions to the rule but more times than not a QB having more turnovers than TD's in playoff game will result in a loss.

Well that's true. Again it appears you aren't listening. Any team with a negative turnover ratio of -2 or more is very likely to lose that game. So it doesn't have to correlate to the QB only the team. Extrapolating that logically gets you to your statement. It is true that a QB with a poor TD/INT rate is not going to have as much success as a QB with a good one esp 2:1 or better. Turnover differential is a team stat. If you're saying it is a QB stat that's an inappropriate use of that data. If you're speaking of turnovers directly the cause of the QB only then you can argue they have some responsibility for the loss.

 

[jobberone]

Do interceptions cause a team to lose or does losing cause interceptions?

There were many times where Romo could either try to force the ball to a receiver or just be content with going 3-and-out. There were also times where he just screwed up. It would be great if there was a statistic that could differentiate interceptions due to stupid decisions from those that are more of a calculated gamble.

And that would be a valid and good point. A team could turn the ball over not related to the play of the QB and 'dig a hole' the QB had to overcome. That of course creates more turnovers as the QB and team are in more and more desperate situations.

 

[5Stars]

And that would be a valid and good point. A team could turn the ball over not related to the play of the QB and 'dig a hole' the QB had to overcome. That of course creates more turnovers as the QB and team are in more and more desperate situations.

This reminds me of that one game where a ball bounced off of Witten's foot and it got intercepted. Of course, that was Romo's fault.

 

[KJJ]

Again you take 1 game the Bears face other HOF QB and proved defense can also destroy a QB and make him moot, or what Montana is not great" He is not a HOF and in the mean time how many SB does Marino have> Not a single one for all his greatness he has no SB so then what it was the HC? Geez QB is important no one ever said it wasn't but it takes a team to win a SB no matter how good your QB is. I really do not see how you can't comprehend this. You spout off about Marino and yet he has no SB yet it is all the QB and HC?

I'm pointing out that a great performance by a HOF QB can offset even the greatest defense in history. The Bears defense didn't play bad that night they held Marino to just over 51% of his passes and less than 300 yards but when he connected they were big plays the Bears couldn't defend. Marino doesn't have a SB win because the Dolphins lived and died off his arm. He never played that great in playoffs his TD to turnover ratio during the postseason was 32-25.

He only had 7 more TD's than turnovers. Show me ONE post where I claimed it's "all" the HC and QB??? LOL Never ONCE have I said that. Naturally it takes a team to win but a QB and HC take most of the heat when their teams don't. Why can't you comprehend that? It's always been that way it's not a figment of my imagination it's a fact. I spout off about Marino because he was a great HOF QB who was the only QB to riddle the greatest defense in NFL history full of holes.

 

[5Stars]

I'm pointing out that a great performance by a HOF QB can offset even the greatest defense in history. The Bears defense didn't play bad that night they held Marino to just over 51% of his passes and less than 300 yards but when he connected they were big plays the Bears couldn't defend. Marino doesn't have a SB win because the Dolphins lived and died off his arm. He never played that great in playoffs his TD to turnover ratio during the postseason was 32-25.

He only had 7 more TD's than turnovers. Show me ONE post where I claimed it's "all" the HC and QB??? LOL Never ONCE have I said that. Naturally it takes a team to win but a QB and HC take most of the heat when their teams don't. Why can't you comprehend that? It's always been that way it's not a figment of my imagination it's a fact. I spout off about Marino because he was a great HOF QB who was the only QB to riddle the greatest defense in NFL history full of holes.

In your fantasy world, I guess I agree. But only one of them are on the field of play at any given time. There are other players that take the heat for a loss also. Maybe the kicker missed the game winner. Is that the HC or QB's fault?

smh

You are really reaching and talking in circles, KJJ. Maybe you should just logoff awhile and get some rest.

Oh, and by the way. How come you rarely post in other threads about the Cowboys and what they are doing in training camp if you are a Cowboy fan? It seems that the only posts you make are to dog Romo? There are other players too!

 

[superpunk]

When your pivotal point in a "Win or go home" thread is a game that occurred in the middle of the season, and is a perfect example of how pass defense is just as important as pass offense (actually EVERY GAME EVER is a perfect example of that) it might be time to quiet down.

 

[KJJ]

Well that's true. Again it appears you aren't listening. Any team with a negative turnover ratio of -2 or more is very likely to lose that game. So it doesn't have to correlate to the QB only the team. Extrapolating that logically gets you to your statement. It is true that a QB with a poor TD/INT rate is not going to have as much success as a QB with a good one esp 2:1 or better. Turnover differential is a team stat. If you're saying it is a QB stat that's an inappropriate use of that data. If you're speaking of turnovers directly the cause of the QB only then you can argue they have some responsibility for the loss.

Most turnovers fall on the QB not all but most. If a QB is repeatedly turning the ball over they're giving the opposition an extra scoring opportunity and putting their own defense in a tough situation in some cases forcing them to have to defend a short field. Postseason pressure can cause some QB's to fold and all it takes is a rocky QB to cause an offense to lose their rhythm and become out of synch. Turnover differentials may be a team stat but QB's have a TD to turnover ratio and it speaks volumes for how a team performs in the postseason.

Flacco clearly held the Ravens back in 08 and 09. He wasn't generating points and turning the ball over. The Ravens team that won the SB last Feb wasn't as good a team as the Ravens teams that lost title games in 08 and 09. What got the Ravens over the hump last season was Flacco's postseason performance that included an 11-0 TD to turnover ratio.

 

[5Stars]

Most turnovers fall on the QB not all but most. If a QB is repeatedly turning the ball over they're giving the opposition an extra scoring opportunity and putting their own defense in a tough situation in some cases forcing them to defend a short field. Postseason pressure can cause some QB's to fold and all it takes is a rocky QB to cause an offense to lose their rhythm and become out of synch. Turnover differentials may be a team stat but QB's have a TD to turnover ratio and it speaks volumes for how a team performs in the postseason.

Flacco clearly held the Ravens back in 08 and 09. He wasn't generating points and turning the ball over. The Ravens team that won the SB last Feb wasn't as good a team as the Ravens teams that lost title games in 08 and 09. What got the Ravens over the hump last season was Flacco's postseason performance that included an 11-0 TD to turnover ratio.

If Flacco would have played on the Cowboys last season, would he have won the SB?

I mean, come on, the dude had an 11-0 turn over ratio!