Fisher: Manziel top-rated QB on Cowboys board

[jterrell]

The problem with comparing Johnny to Russell Wilson is that they are polar opposites in terms of mental makeup.

Russell Wilson apparently has once in a decade type of leadership and perfect mental makeup for a player according to Pete Carroll and some other Seahawks staff.

Wilson is so impressive in that area that the Texas Rangers used a late round draft pick on him, and were able get him to come to spring training just because they wanted to expose their players to his mindset and winner mentality.

The problem with comparing him to Wilson is Wilson lost his starting job in college and that Manziel passed for 1000 more yards plus rushed for a yard more per carry in a far superior conference his final season and he is 3 inches taller.

But playing style wise they are very similar. Manziel actually throws it more often. He had 1 run for about every 4 pass attempts. Wilson was more like 3 to 1.
But both made you defend the run and that helped open up the passing game.

 

[jterrell]

What?!!!!

Come on JT.
You can't possibly think Johnny Manziel is Dallas' top overall rated player!
Really?

As for you other points, I agree, it would not totally surprise me if they took him if he fell to 16. And yes, I do think he does before then.

I think it very likely the Dallas top 2 is Clowney and Manziel.
We will probably know a few days after the draft.

 

[DFWJC]

I think it very likely the Dallas top 2 is Clowney and Manziel.
We will probably know a few days after the draft.

I've heard rumblings that Garrett has gotten to Jerry enough now he will possibly start guarding the draft board--even after the draft--a little more closely. Jerry has never thought it was a big deal to let other teams (and players, or future FAs) see how you had players rated on draft day after the fact. But I hear Garrett and others think differently.

We'll know soon enough.

I don't think they have Manziel in their top 8, and maybe not top the 16.
But if they end up allowing the board to be leaked again (and it's the real board) I guess we'll see.

In any case, this year should be fun.

 

[xwalker]

The problem with comparing him to Wilson is Wilson lost his starting job in college and that Manziel passed for 1000 more yards plus rushed for a yard more per carry in a far superior conference his final season and he is 3 inches taller.

But playing style wise they are very similar. Manziel actually throws it more often. He had 1 run for about every 4 pass attempts. Wilson was more like 3 to 1.
But both made you defend the run and that helped open up the passing game.

3 inches?

Russell Wilson 5105
Johnny Manziel 5116

That's a 1-1/8" difference.

The QB position is overwhelmingly about the mental makeup of the player. There have been many many players over the years with the physical ability to play QB in the NFL, but few with the proper mental makeup to do it.

 

[jterrell]

I don't know if these are the details of Romo's contract or not. This is cleary not what is shown but if true, then I would agree that it is much more reasonable to sign a QB. However, I still do not believe that Manziel is the guy you should sign. I don't think the guy is the best QB prospect in this draft but that really means very little. The Manning situation was different IMO. Luck was light years better then Manziel and will be his entire career IMO. If we were talking about another Luck, I would be much more on board with it, assuming the contract details are as you say they are.

We can debate personal feelings all day. I will tell you will not find a better QB prospect on paper than Manziel in this draft class or any other.

6'1", 210 pounds.
7800 yards passing and 2200 yards rushing for 10000 total yards off offense with 97 TDs scored over two years in the SEC West. 1 Heisman trophy.
That is literally absurd college production.
He proved he can make all the throws an NFL team would ask of him in Pro Days and produced elite measurables for quickness with solid explosion numbers and speed.

As to the Romo stuff : His 2015 guarantee is 7.5 m but is contingent on him being on the roster 3 days after the league calander turns over.
You can validate it on spotrac. OTC is only really good for doing a current year. Romo had fully guaranteed base salaries for 2013 and 2014.

 

[jterrell]

3 inches?

Russell Wilson 5105
Johnny Manziel 5116

That's a 1-1/8" difference.

The QB position is overwhelmingly about the mental makeup of the player. There have been many many players over the years with the physical ability to play QB in the NFL, but few with the proper mental makeup to do it.

I was looking at TAMU's listed 6'1" for Manziel and Wisconsin's listed 5'10" for Wilson because I was pulling their college stats.
Fair enough in that it is REALLY only 1' and 1/8 inch difference. Significant still imho but not overwhelming as it seemed.

Mental makeup: No doubt this is a huge component but on a message board this is like talking about the boogeyman.
People do rave about Wilson's mental make up but he lost a college starting gig, had to transfer and then fell to round 3 after a fairly poor Senior Bowl game and combine showing. There were red flags with Wilson that don't exist for Manziel same as the reverse.
Manziel's mental makeup is largely a question mark.
He comes off and cocky and entitled but that basically describes every athlete who's ever had success.
He needs to put in the work but there's nothing indicated he hasn't or won't do so.
His quickness numbers are excellent and his Wonderlic was top of class.
His mind and body are both at elite levels as far as we can actually measure.

If I had to stake my scouting rep on a QB in this class it is Manziel.
He has the best college tape and checks all the boxes with Wonderlic and pro day workouts.

Doesn;t mean he won't be a bust but at a position where only a couple guys a year are long-term starters he has the best overall case to be a superstar.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The problem with comparing him to Wilson is Wilson lost his starting job in college and that Manziel passed for 1000 more yards plus rushed for a yard more per carry in a far superior conference his final season and he is 3 inches taller.

But playing style wise they are very similar. Manziel actually throws it more often. He had 1 run for about every 4 pass attempts. Wilson was more like 3 to 1.
But both made you defend the run and that helped open up the passing game.

When you say, Wilson lost his starting job, technically, that's correct but really, it's because O'Brien didn't agree with Wilson's decision to play Minor League Baseball in the off season. I'd be willing to bet that if O'Brien had that decision to make over again, he would have absolutely done it differently. He didn't really lose his job, per say.

The thing you are trying to do here is project Manziel. He is not Wilson by any stretch IMO. I do not see Manziel winning a Super Bowl in his 3rd season but that doesn't mean he can't be successful. It just means that he is not Wilson IMO. I don't think it's fair to try and compare him to Wilson either.

 

[burmafrd]

have not seen this much man love for a player in a long time. Really funny to read some of JT's posts.

 

[xwalker]

I was looking at TAMU's listed 6'1" for Manziel and Wisconsin's listed 5'10" for Wilson because I was pulling their college stats.
Fair enough in that it is REALLY only 1' and 1/8 inch difference. Significant still imho but not overwhelming as it seemed.

Mental makeup: No doubt this is a huge component but on a message board this is like talking about the boogeyman.
People do rave about Wilson's mental make up but he lost a college starting gig, had to transfer and then fell to round 3 after a fairly poor Senior Bowl game and combine showing. There were red flags with Wilson that don't exist for Manziel same as the reverse.
Manziel's mental makeup is largely a question mark.
He comes off and cocky and entitled but that basically describes every athlete who's ever had success.
He needs to put in the work but there's nothing indicated he hasn't or won't do so.
His quickness numbers are excellent and his Wonderlic was top of class.
His mind and body are both at elite levels as far as we can actually measure.

If I had to stake my scouting rep on a QB in this class it is Manziel.
He has the best college tape and checks all the boxes with Wonderlic and pro day workouts.

Doesn;t mean he won't be a bust but at a position where only a couple guys a year are long-term starters he has the best overall case to be a superstar.

If I were a GM and I was drafting a QB in the 1st round, mental makeup would be above all other criteria.

Not only are you using the valuable 1st round pick, but you're going to be stuck trying to make it work for years. You could give the pick away and it would be less of a franchise setback than taking the wrong player at QB.

If I passed on Johnny and he went on to be terrific, I would not think twice about it just like Jimmy never worried about draft picks that didn't work out or the ones the didn't make.

Wilson's question marks pushed him to the 3rd round. We're talking about Manziel at 16 or higher. You can trade 16 for the equivalent of a half dozen 3rd round picks.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

We can debate personal feelings all day. I will tell you will not find a better QB prospect on paper than Manziel in this draft class or any other.

6'1", 210 pounds.
7800 yards passing and 2200 yards rushing for 10000 total yards off offense with 97 TDs scored over two years in the SEC West. 1 Heisman trophy.
That is literally absurd college production.
He proved he can make all the throws an NFL team would ask of him in Pro Days and produced elite measurables for quickness with solid explosion numbers and speed.

As to the Romo stuff : His 2015 guarantee is 7.5 m but is contingent on him being on the roster 3 days after the league calander turns over.
You can validate it on spotrac. OTC is only really good for doing a current year. Romo had fully guaranteed base salaries for 2013 and 2014.

Yeah, your right. I think I could find a better prospect at QB in this draft, maybe a couple. I don't agree. He's not 6'1", as has been mentioned already but more to the point, College Production in a QB is no indicator of success in the NFL. I've posted this before but will do so again.

Highest Average Yards Per Game, Per Season: David Klingler


Highest Career Yards: Case Keenum


Highest Yards in a Season: B. J. Symons


Single Game Yards: David Klingler


Most 400 Yard or more games Season: B. J. Symons


Most 400 Yard Games Career: Case Keenum


Highest Pass % Career: Colt Brennan


Highest Pass % Season: Colt McCoy


Most Passing Yards Career: Case Keenum


Most Passing Season: B.J. Symons


Most Passing Yards Per Game: David Klingler


Most Career TDs: Case Keenum


Most TDs Season: Colt Brennan


In fact, of the top 30, all time career passing leaders, only two have had real success in the NFL. Drew Brees and Russell Wilson, #28 and 30 respectively. Doesn't mean that Manziel won't be successful but it does mean that College Career Passing numbers are not a real good indicator of success in the NFL.

 

[Hardline]

There is no way Fisher knows Johnny College is #1 on their draft board. No one know other than the GM,coaches and scouts

 

[Alexander]

Right now in the top 10 he could go to Houston(after a trade down), Jax who has an owner very concerned about marketing and the bottom line, CLE, Oakland and Minny(tho Zimmer doesn't want to be hitched to him) all teams who need QBs and a face of the franchise.

Like I said before, I can see any of those teams, but none are locks. Oakland and Minnesota I highly

But more than that any team could move up into the top 10 to draft him. I mean New England... anyone.

I don't think it is a rule he has to be top ten. Some teams may have their specific targets they are not willing to trade way down and miss out on someone they really want.

The way I have it, Manziel is no worse than 7th on a consensus board--Clowney, Robinson, Matthews, Mack and Watkins are pretty much locks to go ahead of him in some fashion. Evans could be ahead as well. It just depends on how things fall. If he makes it past Cleveland and Jacksonville, I am not convinced Oakland or Minnesota value him enough or are willing to drop very far down. I do think he's going in the twenty picks. That is why Dallas' 16 might be his floor.

He is a boom or bust guy but is worth a gamble because they all are gambles at that position and if you guess on good and guess right you have a star playing for relatively peanuts for 4/5 years at a position that pays 20m a year.

That five year thing is exactly why he and Bridgewater, maybe Garappolo, even Savage and Mettenberger could go in the first round somewhere. That extra year is important for the position that requires development. Take that same player in the second you lose the option and that is where the Patriots find themselves with Mallett.

I am not saying I want Dallas to sacrifice all and trade up for him.
I am saying someone will jump on him in the top 10 and he will be an immediate star.
How the team and he handles that stardom will determine his long term success.

I don't disagree that he will go in the first. Depending on the team, possibly top 10. But he is not slipping out of the first. Not many of these QBs will.

 

[Alexander]

There is no way Fisher knows Johnny College is #1 on their draft board. No one know other than the GM,coaches and scouts

He is guessing, but seriously who would be ahead of him? Bortles? Bridgewater? Jones has already stated how much he loves Manziel. It is not that hard to believe.

 

[Alexander]

In fact, of the top 30, all time career passing leaders, only two have had real success in the NFL. Drew Brees and Russell Wilson, #28 and 30 respectively. Doesn't mean that Manziel won't be successful but it does mean that College Career Passing numbers are not a real good indicator of success in the NFL.

I think his point is that Manziel is unique. All of these players, Klingler, Symons, Brennan, Keenum were all products of the spread systems, so I do not quite follow where you are going with this.

 

[DFWJC]

The problem with comparing him to Wilson is Wilson lost his starting job in college and that Manziel passed for 1000 more yards plus rushed for a yard more per carry in a far superior conference his final season and he is 3 inches taller.

.

FYI

They finally got an official measurement of Manziel at the NFL combine. He is 5' 11 3/4"...or 1 3/4" taller than Wilson.

Not that it really matters, but I had noticed some misinformation out there on places like Wiki, etc.
The combine measurements are real and not speculation.

 

[Rockport]

Jerry will pee himself and trade up if he falls out of the top 10. He won't be able to help himself, you'll see him twitching on the war room cam.

Twitching and muttering something about the secret sauce.

 

[Rockport]

If Romo is healthy he is our QB for at least the next two seasons. This scenario would be a lot like Favre/Rogers. Manziel will be on the bench for his first couple of years. That's probably a good thing.

If the Cowboys draft Manziel, the idiot fans and media will be clamoring loudly from day 1 until he starts. It will be a disaster for team chemistry. Romo would be wise to just demand a trade or be released neither of which would happen because of the salary cap implications.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think his point is that Manziel is unique. All of these players, Klingler, Symons, Brennan, Keenum were all products of the spread systems, so I do not quite follow where you are going with this.

Where I'm going with this is that numbers are not a good indicator of success in the NFL. It's not just Klingler or Symons or Brennan or Keenum. It's literally all of the career guys. I do not believe that Manziel's game, as it is today, translates very well into the NFL. That's just my opinion.

 

[rags747]

Im down with taking Manziel, he belongs with Americas Team. If Roger is ok with it then so am I...I do not think he will make it to 16 though, no way he makes it to us.

 

[Hardline]

Just for the record I am dead set on not drafting Johnny College in a trade up or at 16.

But if he is drafted by the Cowboys, I am going to really enjoy the show on and off the feild.