Fisher: Manziel top-rated QB on Cowboys board

[KB1122]

He doesn't fit what we do here, I agree. We also aren't changing the offense anytime soon because we can not even think about cutting Romo till 2017. Perhaps we could trade him but I doubt I even doubt that. This offense will be what Romo wants for the immediate future. That's a vertical game with lots of routes down field. Heck, we don't throw the short stuff much as it is. I just don't see Manziel as a good fit for us. However, I don't see that stopping Jerry either. It could happen but it would not be a good thing if it did IMO.

Offensive schemes are disposable. Star power is forever.

 

[jobberone]

75% of college teams run that style so getting players isn't an issue.
It is coaches adapting.
And that will happen as guys who know this stuff will get hired all over the league.

Emphasis in the NFL is on more explosion plays and acrobatics and less physicality. Less head trauma/injuries from banging in the clenches.

Spread football(in old days of a couple years ago called 2 minute football) makes money.

RBs are a dime a dozen and may not see one drafted til round 3 but 10 WRs will go top 2 rounds.

I agree with some of this but there is a huge difference in the college and NFL game. The field is 'smaller' in the NFL because most players are just that much faster and quicker as well as generally bigger....on a weekly basis. That is why most running QBs don't work as well as the hype.

Give me a Peyton Manning over a RGIII any day. Unless they are like Steve Young then I'd rather have a pocket passer who knows the game, reads the defenses, and runs as a last resort.

If you notice Foles is not a runner. He's slower than Romo. He just gets the ball out quickly avoiding the rush and has one of the best players in the NFL to throw it or hand it off to. Without him protecting the ball and having McCoy Philly is an average team. Foles did play well last year so not to take anything away from him.

 

[jterrell]

I appreciate your thoughts but I just don't agree with you about him completely. I see boom or bust all over this guy. I agree he has a NFL arm but he's not going to be able to play like he did in college. The NFL is too quick and fast for him not to mention getting hurt doing it...eventually....likely sooner than later.

that's a different argument completely.
manziel is not a 4.2 guy who runs mostly north and south.
he has Romo-like quickness and agility to avoid hits.
he gets in and out of spaces very, very quickly.
i mean as quickly as anyone on any game tape does.
watch Alabama with elite defenders struggle to contain him even minimally and you will understand.
anyone who watches those two games back to back will believe this kid is the top overall player in the draft.

he obviously can't duck his head and play tough guy in the NFL but he has an NFL arm and probably is day 1 the quickest, most agile (not fastest) QB to ever play the game.

again the model for manziel and why he will be drafted very high is russell wilson who is not quite as gifted as manziel in arm strength or quickness but is close in both areas.

what you probably won't see is manziel running some pure read option nonsense. it will very likely be more of the seattle attack.

everyone would love Peyton and Andrew Luck but those guys are once a decade type players. With 32 NFL teams odds are terrible you get those guys.
but those guys have won a total of what 1 Super Bowl??? you can win with other NFL QBs that are not the prototype.

 

[Alexander]

I understand and what you are saying in basically correct.
The problem is you ignore the largest overriding factor, which is a player goes to a single team who values him most.
Manziel has elite value and is the top QB on at least a handful of boards including Dallas (who doesn't want a QB so evaluated them non-biasedly).

And I have a hard time designating who that one team is that is in the top 10. Cleveland is the best fit and he would revive a very moribund franchise. That is about the only place I see him fitting on all fronts and have a front office willing to take that risk.

I honestly do not believe Manziel makes it out of the top 5 picks.
He will sell the most jerseys in football next year.

I know I would throw caution to the wind because he is a marketing boon waiting to happen and he has talent. This is not a Tebow-like thing at all. But I think a lot of NFL brass are conservative by nature and sometimes do not want to attach their name to such a high profile boom or bust type QB. That is what makes Manziel so unique. I have not seen many like him that carry that extra baggage in terms of celebrity, maybe since Joe Namath.

QB is the hardest piece in the NFL to find. If you get one you build the offense around them.
How long have we been Romo-friendly??

We also spent time trying to make Romo into a pocket passer. How many times did we hear there was the effort made to get him Brady-like?

How long was Payton given a clean bill of health in Denver before they made him the starting QB AND de facto offensive coordinator?

Manning is a different case. He was not a rookie, he was a Hall of Fame talent that could function as his own coordinator. Manziel probably scares a lot of coordinators to death and it is pretty easy to see he is used to playing sandlot football, not operating in a structure and executing to that. Even Holmgren acknowledged how frustrating a similar player like Favre was to reign in and eventually he came to a compromise to let him do what he does.

 

[jterrell]

I agree with some of this but there is a huge difference in the college and NFL game. The field is 'smaller' in the NFL because most players are just that much faster and quicker as well as generally bigger....on a weekly basis. That is why most running QBs don't work as well as the hype.

Give me a Peyton Manning over a RGIII any day. Unless they are like Steve Young then I'd rather have a pocket passer who knows the game, reads the defenses, and runs as a last resort.

If you notice Foles is not a runner. He's slower than Romo. He just gets the ball out quickly avoiding the rush and has one of the best players in the NFL to throw it or hand it off to. Without him protecting the ball and having McCoy Philly is an average team. Foles did play well last year so not to take anything away from him.

Foles didn't play very well versus us but I agree.
Also agree that the NFL has differences but can not agree about the effect the college game has.
What players know best will work best on the next level.
NFL defenses may adapt more quickly but guys coming out on offense have been going this direction for a decade.
New England turned Brady into a superstar with this stuff.

The NFL has been going this way and the rules of the game, the players coming out and the coaches entering the NFL now are all factor sin increased usage of the spread.

If I were a high school coach we'd run the pistol.
It can be adapted to be run heavy or pass heavy depending upon personnel and you can have a pass happy or run happy QB and still succeed.

The pressure on the defense to cover the entire field is still very real and it makes it impossible to hide defenders.

 

[Alexander]

I heard Fisher discussing this in depth on the radio.

His point was that people mention Dallas and then ......."dot-dot-dot"....Manziel, and everyone fills in the gaps assuming Dallas would draft him.

He said ALL it means (and nothing more) is that he is probably the top QB on their board and if
(1) by some wild chance he fell to 16 (never would they trade up) AND
(2) Dallas had no other worthy players to pick at positions of greater need AND
(3) could not trade down, then they would have to at least consider him.

He joked that all of those if's and disclaimers are ignored by the press and fans...and people delete it and say Dallas wants to draft Manziel--which is not true.

I hardly think anyone, even the most overzealous ignorant media type suggesting him to Dallas as potential is suggesting that Jones is going to pull out everything to get Manziel.

Point 1 is the biggest hurdle. If he's there at 16, you might as well get ready for the rioting in the streets unless there is another player we covet to choose from. If the choices are Zack Martin, Kony Ealy and the likes of what people figure will be there, it is a no brainer decision for Jones, whether people think he "needs" a QB or not. He does covet the player.

I do not think trading down has to be a condition because I am certain if Jones could get him, he would keep him barring a blockbuster deal.

If he slid to 16, what team could justify the ransom it would take to pry him out of Jones' grip? They would have just traded above him to get him.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Offensive schemes are disposable. Star power is forever.

Perhaps, but Cap Limitations and Dead Cap are not.

 

[jterrell]

And I have a hard time designating who that one team is that is in the top 10. Cleveland is the best fit and he would revive a very moribund franchise. That is about the only place I see him fitting on all fronts and have a front office willing to take that risk.


I know I would throw caution to the wind because he is a marketing boon waiting to happen and he has talent. This is not a Tebow-like thing at all. But I think a lot of NFL brass are conservative by nature and sometimes do not want to attach their name to such a high profile boom or bust type QB. That is what makes Manziel so unique. I have not seen many like him that carry that extra baggage in terms of celebrity, maybe since Joe Namath.


We also spent time trying to make Romo into a pocket passer. How many times did we hear there was the effort made to get him Brady-like?



Manning is a different case. He was not a rookie, he was a Hall of Fame talent that could function as his own coordinator. Manziel probably scares a lot of coordinators to death and it is pretty easy to see he is used to playing sandlot football, not operating in a structure and executing to that. Even Holmgren acknowledged how frustrating a similar player like Favre was to reign in and eventually he came to a compromise to let him do what he does.

Right now in the top 10 he could go to Houston(after a trade down), Jax who has an owner very concerned about marketing and the bottom line, CLE, Oakland and Minny(tho Zimmer doesn't want to be hitched to him) all teams who need QBs and a face of the franchise.

But more than that any team could move up into the top 10 to draft him. I mean New England... anyone.
He is a boom or bust guy but is worth a gamble because they all are gambles at that position and if you guess on good and guess right you have a star playing for relatively peanuts for 4/5 years at a position that pays 20m a year.

Manziel has had the most impressive 2 year run run by a college QB in the last decade.
He went to the "big boy" NFL-lite conference and tore them all a new one.
You don't overlook that productivity at that level it is still football and it doesn't change that much from SEC to NFL.
The game does get faster but no one said Manziel was slow to react in anyway.

I am not saying I want Dallas to sacrifice all and trade up for him.
I am saying someone will jump on him in the top 10 and he will be an immediate star.
How the team and he handles that stardom will determine his long term success.

 

[jterrell]

Perhaps, but Cap Limitations and Dead Cap are not.

the way to fix your cap is to play cheap at QB. overhauling an offense is not hard.
especially since every NFL team runs spread schemes already.

The thought a team needs a new 11 guys to run a scheme Manizel can handle is basically ignorant.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

the way to fix your cap is to play cheap at QB. overhauling an offense is not hard.
especially since every NFL team runs spread schemes already.

The thought a team needs a new 11 guys to run a scheme Manizel can handle is basically ignorant.

All well and good but none of that pertains to us. We are saddled with Romo till 2017. There is no way to get around that.
All the rest of this really doesn't mean a thing because if we took Manziel, then that would mean that we sit Romo or, we sit Manziel. There is not cap fix available in that scenario.

 

[Idgit]

I hear this and think 1. Manziel is the highest rated player on our board and 2. the idea that we might move up to take him provides good cover if we want to explore jumping the Bears for a shot at Aaron Donald.

I think we'd be crazy not to take a franchise QB if one of our top two guys somehow makes it all the way to 16. Other than that, this team has focussed on filling it's biggest need in recent drafts with that top pick, and then filling in the gaps with it's highest rated players thereafter. I see no reason to depart from that unless we really get a bluebird falling into our laps.

 

[Bungarian]

Explain the 2013 thing again.

 

[DFWJC]

Dallas would have taken Andrew Luck as well if he had fallen to them.
This is just them being honest about the top QB on their board.
They can be honest because they know he won't be there at 16 to matter, lol.

Passing Manziel is like passing Randy Moss. It has the ability to haunt you for a decade.

Nobody had Andrew Luck falling below #2 overall. There are a ton of people that have Manziel falling past us at 16 and some have him at the bottom of round 1.

The point is, if Manziel fell to 16, just because he would be Dallas' top rated QB does not at all mean he would be our top rated available player.

 

[jobberone]

Foles didn't play very well versus us but I agree.
Also agree that the NFL has differences but can not agree about the effect the college game has.
What players know best will work best on the next level.
NFL defenses may adapt more quickly but guys coming out on offense have been going this direction for a decade.
New England turned Brady into a superstar with this stuff.

The NFL has been going this way and the rules of the game, the players coming out and the coaches entering the NFL now are all factor sin increased usage of the spread.

If I were a high school coach we'd run the pistol.
It can be adapted to be run heavy or pass heavy depending upon personnel and you can have a pass happy or run happy QB and still succeed.

The pressure on the defense to cover the entire field is still very real and it makes it impossible to hide defenders.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but I still think you don't want your high dollar QB running the ball that much and I completely disagree with you about his sandlot mentality. He's going to drive an OC crazy as well as his receivers. He's going to throw a lot of INTs at least to start with and he's going to likely be injured running around like he does. There is really no comparison with the speed of a NFL defense to even an Alabama. I hope for his sake and the OC and HC I'm wrong about him. But I would take Bortles and Carr over him in a skinny minute.

And we haven't even touched on his immature behavior and narcissism.

 

[KB1122]

The big thing is that I still think he's going No. 1 to Houston. The fact the Cowboys might want him makes it even that more important to Houston. If the Cowboys started winning Super Bowls with Johnny Manziel, Houston wouldn't even be the most popular team in their own city.

 

[xwalker]

that's a different argument completely.
manziel is not a 4.2 guy who runs mostly north and south.
he has Romo-like quickness and agility to avoid hits.
he gets in and out of spaces very, very quickly.
i mean as quickly as anyone on any game tape does.
watch Alabama with elite defenders struggle to contain him even minimally and you will understand.
anyone who watches those two games back to back will believe this kid is the top overall player in the draft.

he obviously can't duck his head and play tough guy in the NFL but he has an NFL arm and probably is day 1 the quickest, most agile (not fastest) QB to ever play the game.

again the model for manziel and why he will be drafted very high is russell wilson who is not quite as gifted as manziel in arm strength or quickness but is close in both areas.

what you probably won't see is manziel running some pure read option nonsense. it will very likely be more of the seattle attack.

everyone would love Peyton and Andrew Luck but those guys are once a decade type players. With 32 NFL teams odds are terrible you get those guys.
but those guys have won a total of what 1 Super Bowl??? you can win with other NFL QBs that are not the prototype.

The problem with comparing Johnny to Russell Wilson is that they are polar opposites in terms of mental makeup.

Russell Wilson apparently has once in a decade type of leadership and perfect mental makeup for a player according to Pete Carroll and some other Seahawks staff.

Wilson is so impressive in that area that the Texas Rangers used a late round draft pick on him, and were able get him to come to spring training just because they wanted to expose their players to his mindset and winner mentality.

 

[jterrell]

All well and good but none of that pertains to us. We are saddled with Romo till 2017. There is no way to get around that.
All the rest of this really doesn't mean a thing because if we took Manziel, then that would mean that we sit Romo or, we sit Manziel. There is not cap fix available in that scenario.

Any team in the league could handle Manziel on their cap without issues.
Dallas is only truly "saddled" with Romo until 2015. He gets another 7.5m guaranteed if not released or traded first few days of 2015 calendar.
If he is moved a massive dead money pool 19 million would hit but we'd also free up 17m in base salary so the 2015 cost would only be 2m over his hit to keep him.
Something you could manage if you had a young cheap QB. ---and something an NFL has no issues with when the said young QB sales 20m worth of crap at insane mark ups.

Indy was saddled with Peyton, until they cut him and drafted Luck.

It costs Dallas zero more dollars for Manziel at 16 than it would another player at 16.

But again all that is beside the point because the guy isn't going to be there.

 

[jterrell]

Nobody had Andrew Luck falling below #2 overall. There are a ton of people that have Manziel falling past us at 16 and some have him at the bottom of round 1.

The point is, if Manziel fell to 16, just because he would be Dallas' top rated QB does not at all mean he would be our top rated available player.

He won't fall to them and correct this doesn't say where he ranks on their board but other reports suggest he is probably their top overall rated player(at least to Jerry), much like Luck was.

In sum, he isn't coming to Dallas except as an opponent but it won't be because we passed him.
He will go very high and if he somehow fell to 16 we'd either draft him or trade with someone who was because he is far too talented a player at far too valuable a position to pass.

It would similar to all those numbskulls passing Rodgers because he was a moody, cocky, system QB out of Cal.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Any team in the league could handle Manziel on their cap without issues.
Dallas is only truly "saddled" with Romo until 2015. He gets another 7.5m guaranteed if not released or traded first few days of 2015 calendar.
If he is moved a massive dead money pool 19 million would hit but we'd also free up 17m in base salary so the 2015 cost would only be 2m over his hit to keep him.
Something you could manage if you had a young cheap QB. ---and something an NFL has no issues with when the said young QB sales 20m worth of crap at insane mark ups.

Indy was saddled with Peyton, until they cut him and drafted Luck.

It costs Dallas zero more dollars for Manziel at 16 than it would another player at 16.

But again all that is beside the point because the guy isn't going to be there.

I don't know if these are the details of Romo's contract or not. This is cleary not what is shown but if true, then I would agree that it is much more reasonable to sign a QB. However, I still do not believe that Manziel is the guy you should sign. I don't think the guy is the best QB prospect in this draft but that really means very little. The Manning situation was different IMO. Luck was light years better then Manziel and will be his entire career IMO. If we were talking about another Luck, I would be much more on board with it, assuming the contract details are as you say they are.

 

[DFWJC]

He won't fall to them and correct this doesn't say where he ranks on their board but other reports suggest he is probably their top overall rated player(at least to Jerry), much like Luck was.
.

What?!!!!

Come on JT.
You can't possibly think Johnny Manziel is Dallas' top overall rated player!
Really?

As for your other points, I agree, it would not totally surprise me if they took him if he fell to 16. And yes, I do think he does go before then.