Making a Murderer

[65fastback2plus2]

If Avery actually killed the girl he had a few acres worth of land and any number of places to do so, may not have ever been copious amounts of blood in his house.

Then the prosecution flat out lied in two different trials. PERIOD.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Pretty sure he had access to a few episodes of Dexter or the books.
That part really doesn't trouble me much. There was a fair amount of time before the police searched throughly.

If Avery actually killed the girl he had a few acres worth of land and any number of places to do so, may not have ever been copious amounts of blood in his house.

End of the day the circumstantial evidence is fairly overwhelming IMHO.
The justice system can and does employ idiots and it seems that County collected most of them but none of that makes him actually innocent.
They are bad at their job and clearly liars but Avery is just not a very likable dude with a history of assaults on women and animals BEFORE he spent all those years locked up with hardcore felons as a rapist.
His specific request and number of phone calls to this woman is way out of norm.

End of the day I took the "Making of a Murderer" to fall fairly literally for me. They took a damaged dude and locked him away for a crime he didn't commit and he came out a murderer.

VERY few of us in here are trying to determine 100% guilt or 100% innocence.

MOST of us are focused on "Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt"....when you have 8 million doubts and holes in a story, that doesnt qualify as "beyond".

You want me to believe all the holes just HAPPENED to fall into place, and thus I shouldnt question those and believe he is 100% guilty with no doubts. Impossible.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Let me quote Strang here for the best possible answer:

Strang readily admits he thinks it’s possible that Avery is guilty. But, he argues, “If our system worked on convicting people on maybes, then everybody could pat themselves on the back and go out and have a beer, convicting a man on a maybe. Our system isn’t supposed to work on convicting people on maybes.

“In our system, if we live the values we profess, that means you get to keep your liberty,” he continued. “That means you don’t spend the rest of your life in a cage. Could he be guilty? Sure, he could. Do I think he was proven guilty? No. Do I think there’s a real strong chance he could be innocent? Yes. But that’s just me. I wasn’t asked to decide.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...en-avery-again.html?via=mobile&source=twitter

 

[65fastback2plus2]

By multiple study estimates, there are around 30,000 innocent people in jail with convictions on crimes they didnt commit. HORRIFIC. And we should not just standby pat about that horrible number and just treat it like "well, it isnt me so who cares"

 

[Tabascocat]

Michael Adler @madler9000
BREAKING: Another winning #Powerball ticket has emerged from Wisconsin, employees from Manitowoc Sheriffs Dept9:13 PM - 13 Jan 2016

 

[jterrell]

VERY few of us in here are trying to determine 100% guilt or 100% innocence.

MOST of us are focused on "Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt"....when you have 8 million doubts and holes in a story, that doesnt qualify as "beyond".

You want me to believe all the holes just HAPPENED to fall into place, and thus I shouldnt question those and believe he is 100% guilty with no doubts. Impossible.

You can believe whatever you like.
Neither of us is getting him into or out of jail.
We are gonna believe what we believe.

I believe he is guilty of this murder and many other criminal acts. He just happens to have been prosecuted by a trash can.
The prosecution in many cases is weak or poor. Small country/county offices have little no budget compared to the powerful DA of a major city.
I think the evidence goes beyond a reasonable doubt and what we were shown was filmed largely from the point of view of justice for an innocent man before the verdict came back naming him guilty leaving them with a lot of film whose rights were controlled by Avery's parents.

He was obviously framed once and this county absolutely lied/planted evidence but I do not think they had a patsy this time.
I think they merely made the easy/convenient case instead of doing good work and proving his guilt.
I think we'd all be shocked with how often this happens.

I'd be interested if real new evidence comes to light but he won't be getting out unless it does.


The scenario I rather see....
Common sense tells me he was a frustrated, violent man with a fiancee in prison and an infatuation for the only non-related/non-media/non-police young woman who comes out to his junk yard. She was never coming back and if she told him that it could have been the precipitating force that sent things sideways. He had made her feel creeped out before and I could see her trying to leave and letting him know she wouldn't be coming back after she was creeped out again. He hasn't handled conflict with women well according to his ex-wife, his cousin and his ex-fiancee. If he snapped and assaulted her he realizes he has lost millions if she goes away telling her story so he snaps and it ends with her death. I don't think he planned this out in advance but I also don't think someone framed him magically in line with his own actions. The idea he is totally innocent is truly a fairy tale.

 

[Nightman]

End of the day I took the "Making of a Murderer" to fall fairly literally for me. They took a damaged dude and locked him away for a crime he didn't commit and he came out a murderer.

I don't buy that at all.

No one makes someone a murderer. He might have learned how to be a better criminal in jail but he was already a sociopath. Normal people don't soak the family pet in gasoline and light it on fire. They don't pull guns on their cousins and threaten to kill them with 6 month old babies in the car.

Steve Avery is exactly where he belongs and I hope he dies in jail.

 

[Nightman]

Michael Adler @madler9000
BREAKING: Another winning #Powerball ticket has emerged from Wisconsin, employees from Manitowoc Sheriffs Dept9:13 PM - 13 Jan 2016

Funny is funny and thats plain funny

 

[jterrell]

I don't buy that at all.

No one makes someone a murderer. He might have learned how to be a better criminal in jail but he was already a sociopath. Normal people don't soak the family pet in gasoline and light it on fire. They don't pull guns on their cousins and threaten to kill them with 6 month old babies in the car.

Steve Avery is exactly where he belongs and I hope he dies in jail.

There are hundreds of thousands of sociopaths that do not kill.
Being in the system can certainly affect how far one will go over the line.

I have zero idea if he would have killed a human being before his prison time but i am fairly certain he did after it.

But again it isn't me making the argument that's the argument get from the documentary.

 

[Nightman]

There are hundreds of thousands of sociopaths that do not kill.
Being in the system can certainly affect how far one will go over the line.

I have zero idea if he would have killed a human being before his prison time but i am fairly certain he did after it.

But again it isn't me making the argument that's the argument get from the documentary.

But he was in the system because of his own crimes.

The first 6 years of the 18 years of the rape charge was being served concurrently with the 6 years he got for running his cousin off the road and pulling a gun on her. Everyone overlooks that.

No one made Steve Avery a multiple felon but Steve Avery and his crimes were getting progressively worse on their own. I can 100% guarantee if was let out of jail in 1991 after serving the 6 years for the gun charge and assault that he would have committed another violent felony before 2005.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The Investigative Discovery Channel is running their special on the Avery case on January 30th.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Where do you stand on Steven’s Avery guilt or innocence? Are you allowing for the possibility that he may not be innocent?

JB: Neither one of us was there the day that he met Teresa Halbach, so nobody other than God can say what happened. But…there’s no question in my mind that he should have been found not guilty. I think he very likely is innocent of this crime and has now been subjected to another second tragedy of wrongful conviction.

DS: In my view, the people who claim certainty about his guilt are wrong to claim certainty, and the people who claim certainty about his innocence are wrong to claim certainty — and they’re missing the point, which is, what do we do when we’re left with uncertainty?

The fact that this man consistently maintained his innocence and never said something suggesting his guilt is probably the most powerful indication to me…that he didn’t do it. People like Steven Avery, who come into the world poorly equipped to deal with police interrogation or media scrutiny or having their every telephone conversation recorded for 16 months — if they’re guilty, it comes out.

 

[NextGenBoys]

I don't think it's even debatable that he was set up and or framed in some sense.

He should not be spending the rest of his life in jail, period.

 

[jterrell]

I don't think it's even debatable that he was set up and or framed in some sense.

He should not be spending the rest of his life in jail, period.

If he killed that young woman yes he most certainly should.
He's had enough criminal history to where a murder conviction is most worthy of a life sentence.

 

[jterrell]

The Investigative Discovery Channel is running their special on the Avery case on January 30th.

will be very cool to see this. hopefully i remember to dvr it ahead of time.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

If he killed that young woman yes he most certainly should.
He's had enough criminal history to where a murder conviction is most worthy of a life sentence.

we're talking in the frame of "beyond a reasonable doubt" here. No, he absolutely shouldnt be in jail.

 

[NextGenBoys]

If he killed that young woman yes he most certainly should.
He's had enough criminal history to where a murder conviction is most worthy of a life sentence.

we're talking in the frame of "beyond a reasonable doubt" here. No, he absolutely shouldnt be in jail.

Exactly.

In my opinion, you can tell a lot about a person based on their conclusions from this documentary. Right or left. I'm definitely a left leaning individual. Most on this board seem more right leaning.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Exactly.

In my opinion, you can tell a lot about a person based on their conclusions from this documentary. Right or left. I'm definitely a left leaning individual. Most on this board seem more right leaning.

I'm neither...dislike both sides.

 

[Kevinicus]

Where do you stand on Steven’s Avery guilt or innocence? Are you allowing for the possibility that he may not be innocent?

JB: Neither one of us was there the day that he met Teresa Halbach, so nobody other than God can say what happened. But…there’s no question in my mind that he should have been found not guilty. I think he very likely is innocent of this crime and has now been subjected to another second tragedy of wrongful conviction.

DS: In my view, the people who claim certainty about his guilt are wrong to claim certainty, and the people who claim certainty about his innocence are wrong to claim certainty — and they’re missing the point, which is, what do we do when we’re left with uncertainty?

The fact that this man consistently maintained his innocence and never said something suggesting his guilt is probably the most powerful indication to me…that he didn’t do it. People like Steven Avery, who come into the world poorly equipped to deal with police interrogation or media scrutiny or having their every telephone conversation recorded for 16 months — if they’re guilty, it comes out.

Who are JB and DS?

 

[NextGenBoys]

I'm neither...dislike both sides.

There should be more independent minds like you. Congrats.

I do have some fairly right sided viewpoints, but I don't know that I can label as Independent.