Interesting Emmitt Smith Fact

[Ranched]

Emmitt post season TDs = 21
Barry post season TD = 1 (against Dallas)

Emmitt Lombardis 3
Barry Lombardis 0

 

[AdamJT13]

I said it cannot be corroborated, not that it doesn't exist (though i don't really believe it exists either)

Just because it's not available in a public database doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'm skeptical of the data because I've seen so many different numbers over the years. Mind you, I am not debating that Sanders lost a lot of yards... he carried the ball over 3,000 times, I have no doubt he is right there at the top. I just don't see any credible reason that the guy who is also known for a fact to have lost tons of yards but carried the ball 50% times more than Sanders isn't at the top. It has nothing to do with back quality... it just happens if you carry the ball enough.

The Pro Football Reference play index has every play since 1994, so the only negative rushes for Emmitt and Sanders that we don't have readily available are those from 1989-93. From 1994-98, Emmitt carried the ball more times than Sanders (1,649 to 1,624) but lost only about half as many yards (151 negative runs for 318 yards, compared with Sanders' 260 for 624 yards).

From 1999-2004 (after Sanders retired), Emmitt carried 1,495 times and had 194 negative rushes for 438 yards.

So, the verified numbers for both players are 260 losses for 624 yards for Sanders (on 1,624 carries) and 345 losses for 756 yards for Emmitt (on 3,144 carries).

That leaves their carries from 1989-93 for both players. Sanders had 1,432 total carries during those seasons, and Emmitt had 1,262.

The reported career totals for Sanders are 446 negative runs for 1,114 yards. That would mean 186 negative runs for 490 yards out of his 1,432 carries -- entirely feasible, given that it's an even lower rate of negative runs than we know he had from 1994-98.

For Emmitt to have more career yards lost than Sanders, he would have had to have lost at least 359 yards from 1990-93 on his 1,262 carries. Considering that he lost only 318 yards on his 1,649 carries from 1994-98, it seems extremely unlikely that he lost 41 more yards on almost 400 fewer total carries from 1990-93 -- when he won three rushing titles, posted by far his highest YPC season (5.3) and averaged more total YPC than he did from 1994-98 (4.5 to 4.2). If Emmitt lost yards from 1990-93 at the same rate he did from 1994-98, he would have lost 243 yards during those seasons -- far less than the 359 needed to overtake Sanders.

If that's not outright proof, it's at least a credible reason to think that Emmitt didn't lose more yards than Sanders in his career.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

Just because it's not available in a public database doesn't mean it doesn't exist.




The Pro Football Reference play index has every play since 1994, so the only negative rushes for Emmitt and Sanders that we don't have readily available are those from 1989-93. From 1994-98, Emmitt carried the ball more times than Sanders (1,649 to 1,624) but lost only about half as many yards (151 negative runs for 318 yards, compared with Sanders' 260 for 624 yards).

From 1999-2004 (after Sanders retired), Emmitt carried 1,495 times and had 194 negative rushes for 438 yards.

So, the verified numbers for both players are 260 losses for 624 yards for Sanders (on 1,624 carries) and 345 losses for 756 yards for Emmitt (on 3,144 carries).

That leaves their carries from 1989-93 for both players. Sanders had 1,432 total carries during those seasons, and Emmitt had 1,262.

The reported career totals for Sanders are 446 negative runs for 1,114 yards. That would mean 186 negative runs for 490 yards out of his 1,432 carries -- entirely feasible, given that it's an even lower rate of negative runs than we know he had from 1994-98.

For Emmitt to have more career yards lost than Sanders, he would have had to have lost at least 359 yards from 1990-93 on his 1,262 carries. Considering that he lost only 318 yards on his 1,649 carries from 1994-98, it seems extremely unlikely that he lost 41 more yards on almost 400 fewer total carries from 1990-93 -- when he won three rushing titles, posted by far his highest YPC season (5.3) and averaged more total YPC than he did from 1994-98 (4.5 to 4.2). If Emmitt lost yards from 1990-93 at the same rate he did from 1994-98, he would have lost 243 yards during those seasons -- far less than the 359 needed to overtake Sanders.

If that's not outright proof, it's at least a credible reason to think that Emmitt didn't lose more yards than Sanders in his career.

Good analysis. I was going to do some extrapolation myself, once I got to a PC. I also figured you could just double Sanders totals (since he has 5 seasons covered by PFR and 5 seasons not covered) and then use averaging on Smith’s totals. I would definitely say I’m less certain that Emmitt is the definite leader, it could easily be one or the other. What I am certain of is that they are both pretty close together, and that both guys lost and GAINED a ton of yards and however they did it worked for them.
Either way it should end the homer nonsense bullet point of Sanders running around in circles in the backfield losing yards on every play while Emmitt is a mini-Christian Okoye who never went backward at all. Even a conservative projection has Emmitt at a career -1000.

 

[cowboyec]

He did not come up short in big games. The Lions had a really hard time in one particular game against the Packers that is blown out of proportion where the entire team only gained 170 yards. If you remove that game, Barry is his normal five yards per carry self. His biggest problem was playing on a lousy team that couldn't regularly get him to the playoffs, and when they did the game situation quickly turned to where he could not be used. He was very underutilized in the playoffs, only averaging about 15 carries per game, in contrast to his usual 20 carries per game for his career.
As far as losing yardage, all backs lose yardage. Emmitt lost a ton of yardage. As a matter of fact, if we had the actual data to prove it (we don't) I would bet a large amount of money that Emmitt is the all time leader in negative yardage... by a mile.

no way.
barry lost far more.
he also had a bad game vs the skins at RfK.
he was a great back.
for my money...Emmitt and Payton were better.

 

[T-RO]

Emmitt Lombardis 3
Barry Lombardis 0

No matter if we are talking Marino, Romo, Sanders, are any player...this argument doesn’t carry a lot of weight for me.

Emmitt played with a dozen all-pros on his team...in his first five years...and 3 HOFers. There were a number of years where that Cowboy team had a top...even #1 defense. Team sport.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t impact opinion at all, but it certainly doesn’t settle the debate.

 

[xwalker]

Your numbers aren’t right and I don’t follow your argument. I’m old and slow....please clarify.

 

[AdamJT13]

What I am certain of is that they are both pretty close together

Of course, Emmitt did have 1,347 more carries and still wasn't (likely) within 100 yards.

Either way it should end the homer nonsense bullet point of Sanders running around in circles in the backfield losing yards on every play while Emmitt is a mini-Christian Okoye who never went backward at all. Even a conservative projection has Emmitt at a career -1000.

It's not homeristic to say that Sanders had an extremely high rate of losing yards, which even his staunchest supporters admit. At 1,114 yards lost on 3,062 career carries, that's an average of .364 per carry. I looked at 18 of the top running backs since 1994, and the only player whose average was even close to that is LeSean McCoy at .341. Chris Johnson (.301) was the only other one higher than .300, with Marshall Faulk (.293) just below that. Some others -- Adrian Peterson .283, Shaun Alexander .271, Curtis Martin .231, Marshawn Lynch .229, Emmitt Smith .227 (estimated), Tomlinson .197, Jerome Bettis .177 and Edgerrin James .174.

 

[DeaconBlues]

My comment has 4 likes, your retort has two. I have more faith in the Cowboys zone community than to simply label posters as this or that negative connotation. Take the post as it is. If you like it, like it. If you don’t, that’s okay too.

You can paint me however you like, but I’m not trying to force my comment as truth. Just asking that you recognize them as facts.

How cute. He honestly believes his comments are "truth".

 

[T-RO]

Your numbers are really screwed up.

Your second column is repeating values from his first years. Not how stats work.

 

[T-RO]

Of course, Emmitt did have 1,347 more carries and still wasn't (likely) within 100 yards.



It's not homeristic to say that Sanders had an extremely high rate of losing yards, which even his staunchest supporters admit. At 1,114 yards lost on 3,062 career carries, that's an average of .364 per carry. I looked at 18 of the top running backs since 1994, and the only player whose average was even close to that is LeSean McCoy at .341. Chris Johnson (.301) was the only other one higher than .300, with Marshall Faulk (.293) just below that. Some others -- Adrian Peterson .283, Shaun Alexander .271, Curtis Martin .231, Marshawn Lynch .229, Emmitt Smith .227 (estimated), Tomlinson .197, Jerome Bettis .177 and Edgerrin James .174.

Overall average per carry was higher for Barry. Frankly...it’s not even close.

Sanders with 5.0 career average which inculcates any negative plays. He made up for it...and then some. All that behind an inferior line.

Nevertheless...Emmitt is my man and I stand with him.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

Overall average per carry was higher for Barry. Frankly...it’s not even close.

Sanders with 5.0 career average. He might have had more negative plays, but he made up for it...and then some.

He is talking about the negative yards per carry though.

Overall, it's still a dumb, homer bullet point because you are basically talking about the difference of a yard or at most two of negative yards per game, while for some reason ignoring 0 yard gains (which are about as worthless) and ignoring context (if you get stopped for -4 yards or -1 yards on 3rd and 2, most of the time the difference is nonexistent). It's just kind of a weird point to make at all, I don't see much relevance in it. If the negative yards are factored into their totals (they are), that's the limit of what I need to know about them.
I would like to see Emmitt's negative yards before 1994, I noted earlier that he had a total of 10 first team All-Pros awarded to linemen during his Cowbooys career, but only one of those came before 1994. I suspect he went backwards a lot in those years, just as he did at the end with crummy Cardinal/Cowboy lines.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

Your numbers are really screwed up.

Your second column is repeating values from his first years. Not how stats work.

He is not saying you are wrong, he is presenting a different perspective in that you can extend Emmitt's first five years out to eleven years and not lose much on the yards per carry. This is because you can't see when you separate them how much weight his first five years carry because he carried the ball so much. It's a good point.

 

[viman96]

I would like to see Emmitt's negative yards before 1994, I noted earlier that he had a total of 10 first team All-Pros awarded to linemen during his Cowbooys career, but only one of those came before 1994. I suspect he went backwards a lot in those years, just as he did at the end with crummy Cardinal/Cowboy lines.

How many ProBowlers did the Cowboys have on the OL prior to Emmitt showing up?

 

[Super_Kazuya]

How many ProBowlers did the Cowboys have on the OL prior to Emmitt showing up?

Zero Pro Bowls to an OL awarded until Emmit’s third year. In year 4, Erik Williams got the first 1st team All-Pro.
If you count Pro Bowls before Emmitt was drafted, it doesn’t change the answer as there were none.

 

[Aviano90]

No matter if we are talking Marino, Romo, Sanders, are any player...this argument doesn’t carry a lot of weight for me.

Emmitt played with a dozen all-pros on his team...in his first five years...and 3 HOFers. There were a number of years where that Cowboy team had a top...even #1 defense. Team sport.

I’m not saying it shouldn’t impact opinion at all, but it certainly doesn’t settle the debate.

It just makes the debate moot. You go enjoy Barry Sanders being the best. I will continue enjoying the memories of the 3 SBs Emmitt helped Dallas win.

 

[T-RO]

Zero Pro Bowls to an OL awarded until Emmit’s third year. In year 4, Erik Williams got the first 1st team All-Pro.
If you count Pro Bowls before Emmitt was drafted, it doesn’t change the answer as there were none.

Woodson,
Nate,
Step,
Allen,
Troy,
Irvin,
Haley,
Novacek,
Big E,
Norton,
Everett
Johnston
Maryland
Tuinei
Donaldson

All these guys made 1 pro bowl or more. 15 players. And I stopped counting with 1995.

 

[T-RO]

Anyways...For that team...I wouldn’t trade Emmitt for any other back. He was perfect.

Eight or nine years in...different story.

Cowboys like most every other team with good backs just historically don’t know when to move on.

 

[kskboys]

Nope, Emmitt lost tons of yards... we know he at least lost 756. But we can't fill in the data ourselves because of missing box score data.

Of course, but I was arguing against how you stated that it was logical.

All RB's lose tons of yards. A guy on a lesser team who did a lot of running around in the backfield logically lost more.

Emmit was specifically a N/S runner who took the ball and exploded. He did have some wiggle to his game, but his bread and butter was his ability to get to and through the LOS very quickly. Therefore, it would logically make sense that due the type of RB he was that he lost less yardage than Barry.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

Of course, but I was arguing against how you stated that it was logical.

All RB's lose tons of yards. A guy on a lesser team who did a lot of running around in the backfield logically lost more.

Emmit was specifically a N/S runner who took the ball and exploded. He did have some wiggle to his game, but his bread and butter was his ability to get to and through the LOS very quickly. Therefore, it would logically make sense that due the type of RB he was that he lost less yardage than Barry.

Stop with the revisionist history. You specifically said Emmitt had “very very few lost yardage runs” when in fact Emmitt lost more yardage than anyone in history, save for possibly a few. It’s a dumb homer talking point that tries to boost Emmitt but looks dumb under any scrutiny. The end.

 

[cowboyec]

according to NfL...barry sanders is the all-time leader in rushing yds lost at 1,114.

end.