For Those That Like Not Signing Free Agents And Say Its The Best Way, Why Do The Good Teams Do It?

[ConceptCoop]

Maybe trading Lawrence and bringing in a cheaper option like a Houston and then drafting a DE early is wiser? Maybe not hand over a big contract to a TB?

You seem to think it's simple math......... let a CB go, sign a high priced CB in return. That's not how it has to work. The Patriots are masters of this. They let big names walk and get paid and find cheaper options that they make work. They just did it with Flowers. They let their best pass rusher walk in FA but made a trade to bring in a Bennett who is nothing but a one year cap hit for them at $7MM. It gives them a good edge player to replace Flowers and gives them long term flexibility.

You are then left with hoping that the draft every single year delivers immediate impact players to fill in the holes. And how likely is that? Further, that doesn't even take into account the cyclical nature of all of this. An inability or refusal to add key veterans in FA that can make immediate impacts results in a team that is constantly in a state of flux because as they draft and develop to fill holes and needs, another area of the team ages and then has to be replaced itself.

The front office lacks vision, creativity and aggressiveness. It shows in the flawed roster they continually field and likely will field for the next few years.

Flowers isn't the passrusher that Lawrence is, and maybe we should let the Bennet signing pan out before patting them on the back for it.

Being chip with Chandler Jones didn't work out for them.

They "continually field" "flawed" rosters? It's the salary cap era - every team does - that's the kind of the point. We've had a better roster than the Pats during their last 2 SB seasons, save the QB spot. The Cowboys have had SB caliber rosters over the last few years. They just haven't had the coaching and QB play (In part due to injuries) to cash in on it.

 

[ConceptCoop]

let me know how many we missed on. I liked the amari trade when it happened.

Sure, we've missed on too many. I won't dispute that.

 

[Hennessy_King]

Sure, we've missed on too many. I won't dispute that.

Ok then. So my post still stands. Pro scouting department sucks and a Garrett is running it.

 

[Sydla]

Flowers isn't the passrusher that Lawrence is, and maybe we should let the Bennet signing pan out before patting them on the back for it.

Being chip with Chandler Jones didn't work out for them.

They "continually field" "flawed" rosters? It's the salary cap era - every team does - that's the kind of the point. We've had a better roster than the Pats during their last 2 SB seasons, save the QB spot. The Cowboys have had SB caliber rosters over the last few years. They just haven't had the coaching and QB play (In part due to injuries) to cash in on it.

Given the history of the Patriots are you banking on Bennett not working out for them? And he's just but one of many examples where they have done this and been quite successful at it.

How did being cheap with Jones not work out for them? They traded him and still went on to win 2 of the next 3 Super Bowls. With the salary saved, they were able to sign Gilmore in 2017 and they turned the 2nd round pick they got into their starting OG.

 

[ConceptCoop]

My argument is that it might not be wise to pay ALL OF YOUR PLAYERS. Great teams make hard decisions and let some of their better players walk before locking them up to huge contracts.

Who are you arguing against, here? We let Murray walk, we let Hitchens walk, we let Ware walk, we let Leary walk. We've been getting quality comp picks every year.

Be specific. Who did we re-sign that we shouldn't have, outside of Crawford?

If you spend so much in building a great OL, you probably don't need to then spend the resources they probably will at TB.

I agree, but this is a different conversation/critique.

The Patriots love having the salary/cap flexibility they have each year so they can make trades, add FAs, etc. They would never just lock up all by signing all their best players to big contracts. They have shown they have no problem moving some of those guys out just so they can have the flexibility they want.

Yes, and we should strive for that. But unfortunately, we don't have the luxury of having the GOAT count for 14M against the cap.

The Pats make the call at the individual level. They opened the bank for core guys, Gronk and Soldier, etc. We've had more of those guys to make that call on. I'm not convinced the Pats wouldn't have also viewed Smith, Frederick, and Martin as their core guys as well.

Why assume that they wouldn't tie up so much along the O-line? Perhaps they simply didn't have that luxury. What young, all-pro offensive lineman walk after their rookie contract?

 

[LittleD]

Its just sad and embarrassing how inept this team is run.

You either have to get used to it or go follow another team. Stephen is going to be heading things up for decades.

 

[ConceptCoop]

How did being cheap with Jones not work out for them? They traded him and still went on to win 2 of the next 3 Super Bowls. With the salary saved, they were able to sign Gilmore in 2017 and they turned the 2nd round pick they got into their starting OG.

That they won a SB has nothing to do with whether or not the trade worked out for them.

The trade netted them Cooper, Thuney, and Mitchell. Cooper was a bust and Mitchell is a nobody. Thuney is a quality starter at OG, Chandler Jones is one of the best edge rushers in the league. Big difference.

And the Pats could have signed Gilmore and Jones.

 

[ConceptCoop]

Ok then. So my post still stands. Pro scouting department sucks and a Garrett is running it.

Thornton and Carrol were the big misses that I recall. Mayowa and Hurns didn't live up to expectations, but did contribute some.

Irving and McClain were homeruns. Fleming, Looney, and Cooper were all very solid. Paea, Morris, and McFadden paid off.

I would say they're not great, but they don't have a ton of big misses, either. I'd call them average.

 

[Hennessy_King]

Thornton and Carrol were the big misses that I recall. Mayowa and Hurns didn't live up to expectations, but did contribute some.

Irving and McClain were homeruns. Fleming, Looney, and Cooper were all very solid. Paea, Morris, and McFadden paid off.

I would say they're not great, but they don't have a ton of big misses, either. I'd call them average.

What? Mcclain went back on the sizzurp, irving barely played, mcfadden was a body, morris just a body, paea got an injury didn't even make it to week 8. All the other guys were cheap bodies. Is this a Garrett burner account?

 

[kskboys]

Take the Pats, the year before last they signed Stephon Gilmore, CB from the Bills.

5 yrs, $65 million, $31 guaranteed

I'm sure the homers here would all say "its stupid to spend that much on a free agent, they are not worth it".

In two seasons, including playoffs, he has 40 pass defenses, 6 picks, and was rated as the number one CB in the league by PFF this year.

He also intercepted Jared Goff in the SB to seal the win for the Pats.

So where did this myth come from that all free agents signed on day 1 are all overpriced, never live up to their contracts, and will cripple your cap? I wonder if the Pats regret signing Gilmore as they polish yet another Lombardi trophy?

I haven't seen a single poster say they think we shouldn't sign any FA's at all.

 

[kskboys]

What? Mcclain went back on the sizzurp, irving barely played, mcfadden was a body, morris just a body, paea got an injury didn't even make it to week 8. All the other guys were cheap bodies. Is this a Garrett burner account?

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[ConceptCoop]

What? Mcclain went back on the sizzurp, irving barely played, mcfadden was a body, morris just a body, paea got an injury didn't even make it to week 8. All the other guys were cheap bodies. Is this a Garrett burner account?

I was thinking the same thing.

You have to take price into account. When you get starts from cheap guys, that's a win.

McClain was essentially free and gave us two very good years. He was one of our better defensive players for 2 seasons and counted less than 3M against the cap. That's a clear and obvious home run.

Same with Irving. He was essentially free, but was one of our best defensive lineman for a year and a half.

McFadden started for a year and turned in a 1,000 yard season.

Morris was the solid backup we signed him to be.

I'll certainly concede that Paea didn't work out because of the injury. But he was our starter prior to it. You can't blame the scouting department for the injury.

Edit: And I forgot Antwaun Woods, another home run. He gave us 15 solid starts for next to nothing.

 

[Nightman]

We also signed Carr to a 5 year 50MM deal. How did that work out?

We got a 5 year starter that never missed a game for 45m.... he gave back 5m

Was that really a disaster.... he is so bad he has played 32 more consecutive games for BAL with 6 INTs

If that is worst case FA scenario I will take it

 

[ConceptCoop]

We got a 5 year starter that never missed a game for 45m.... he gave back 5m

Was that really a disaster.... he is so bad he has played 32 more consecutive games for BAL

If that is worst case FA scenario I will take it

It was sizable miss on the part of the FO. Giving him that money was big reason why we had to let Ware walk.

 

[Nightman]

DEN went all in and won a SB
SEA went all in and went to 2 SBs and won one
NE consistently uses FA and trades to upgrade their secondary and OL and wins SBs
PHI spent like crazy and won a SB
LAR spent huge and went to NFCCG
CHI went big and went 12-4

you can't say spending doesn't work

 

[Nightman]

It was sizable miss on the part of the FO. Giving him that money was big reason why we had to let Ware walk.

100% wrong

DWare was let go because we didn't want to pay 12m for 6 sacks and we were switching to the 43
They would have created more cap space keeping DWare and re-doing his contract

BCarr didn't prevent them from spending on anything

 

[TwoDeep3]

Take the Pats, the year before last they signed Stephon Gilmore, CB from the Bills.

5 yrs, $65 million, $31 guaranteed

I'm sure the homers here would all say "its stupid to spend that much on a free agent, they are not worth it".

In two seasons, including playoffs, he has 40 pass defenses, 6 picks, and was rated as the number one CB in the league by PFF this year.

He also intercepted Jared Goff in the SB to seal the win for the Pats.

So where did this myth come from that all free agents signed on day 1 are all overpriced, never live up to their contracts, and will cripple your cap? I wonder if the Pats regret signing Gilmore as they polish yet another Lombardi trophy?

It comes from watching Jerry screw this team up for twenty plus years. The fans here are afflicted with the Stockholm syndrome.

Stockholm syndrome is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity. These alliances, resulting from a bond formed between captor and captives during intimate time spent together, are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims. The FBI's Hostage Barricade Database System and Law Enforcement Bulletin shows that roughly 8% of victims show evidence of Stockholm syndrome

But unlike real life wherein it effects 8%, this fandom seems to run a little hotter. Something in the realm of 88% are smitten with their captors and their uncommon decisions

 

[ConceptCoop]

100% wrong

DWare was let go because we didn't want to pay 12m for 6 sacks and we were switching to the 43
They would have created more cap space keeping DWare and re-doing his contract

BCarr didn't prevent them from spending on anything

"Ware was set to make $12.25 million in 2014, and the move will help save salary cap space for the strapped Cowboys (more than $7 million in 2014). The present day version of Jerry Jones had to pay up for all his previous mistakes."

Carr was our highest paid player in 2014, accounting for 9.13% of the cap. And Ware saved us 7M, not 12.

Edit: And perhaps I am wrong about how much of a role Carr's contract played - but that was the narrative at the time, at least. The Cowboys were strapped for cash/cap, thanks in large part to Carr taking up 9% of it. For reference, Tyron Smith's 15.5M cap hit accounted for 7.78% of our cap.

Think about that: we were paying Carr the equivalent of ~17M today.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

We got a 5 year starter that never missed a game for 45m.... he gave back 5m

Was that really a disaster.... he is so bad he has played 32 more consecutive games for BAL with 6 INTs

If that is worst case FA scenario I will take it

95% of fans hated Carr and that deal and blamed him for 5 years for every free agent we didn't go after.

And in any case that was always the right deal and right time... Young player, right kind of guy andat premium position of need. It seems the Cowboys being thoughtful on their big signings has. .. Worked out.
Meanwhile fanbase wants the FO to be less thoughtful. That makes sense?

 

[Nightman]

"Ware was set to make $12.25 million in 2014, and the move will help save salary cap space for the strapped Cowboys (more than $7 million in 2014). The present day version of Jerry Jones had to pay up for all his previous mistakes."

Carr was our highest paid player in 2014, accounting for 9.13% of the cap. And Ware saved us 7M, not 12.

Edit: And perhaps I am wrong about how much of a role Carr's contract played - but that was the narrative at the time, at least. The Cowboys were strapped for cash/cap, thanks in large part to Carr taking up 9% of it. For reference, Tyron Smith's 15.5M cap hit accounted for 7.78% of our cap.

Think about that: we were paying Carr the equivalent of ~17M today.

We still took a bigger cap hit cutting DWare- 8.5m in Dead Money than they would have created by restructuring him and keeping him

It wasn't about the cap or Carr ..... DWare was injured and had 6 sacks and we were going to the 43 and he couldn't survive the pounding at RDE

Keep him and the cap hit was 7m
Cut him and the cap hit was 8.5m

They simply wanted him gone to save the 12m in cash
Mincey ended up with 6 sacks for 1m
DWare had 10 sacks for 10m in DEN