Astros punished for sign stealing

[_sturt_]

 

[ghst187]

This is the same problem the nfl had....
I just don’t understand how you can allow a team caught cheating to keep their title.
Anything less than taking away their title both incentivizes cheating (who cares about a draft pick or two if you win a title?) and illegitimizes the entire game.
I understand why the leagues are averse to doing that as it will cost them huge in viewership...tosses a wet blanket on the title itself....imagine being awarded the title six months to two years later after losing the game....meh.
But how can we keep watching a game with no integrity?

 

[ShortRound]

 

[Cowboys_22]

it’s going to be a long season for my Stros...

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Type of cheating isn't all that relevant. Cheating is cheating.

The Astros FO wasn't cheating. Yanks mgmt knew they were cheating.

ksk? Come on, throwing the Yankees under the bus because the Astros cheated? I don't understand that.

 

[Reality]

MLB has no plans to strip Astros, Red Sox of World Series titles, says commissioner Rob Manfred
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id...d-series-titles-says-commissioner-rob-manfred

---

The argument used is "even without sign-stealing there is no guarantee the other team would have won" .. and he's right.

However, the only reason we don't know that is because the Astros cheated.

There are two easy options that could be done fairly.

1) strip the World Series win from the Astros and give it to the Dodgers (NL) and Yankees (AL) as co-World Series Champions as both teams were the top-seeds whom the Astros cheated.

.. or ..

2) strip the World Series win from the Astros and give it to no one.

As a long time baseball fan, I would be happy with either option. If they leave things as they are, I doubt I will ever watch or go to another MLB baseball game.

To be clear, this is not a "if they don't do what I want, I'm not watching" reaction, but rather a logical desire to not waste time wondering if teams are cheating to win because nothing will happen if they do.

When you lose faith in fairness, sports loses its attraction and reason to watch. Fairness covers a lot more than rules of course, but given the massive amount of sports and non-sports content available to fans (people) these days, the last thing any sports organization or league should want is to give their viewers, customers, fans, etc. less reason to watch and spend money on their sport.

 

[Cowboys_22]

MLB has no plans to strip Astros, Red Sox of World Series titles, says commissioner Rob Manfred
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id...d-series-titles-says-commissioner-rob-manfred

---

The argument used is "even without sign-stealing there is no guarantee the other team would have won" .. and he's right.

However, the only reason we don't know that is because the Astros cheated.

There are two easy options that could be done fairly.

1) strip the World Series win from the Astros and give it to the Dodgers (NL) and Yankees (AL) as co-World Series Champions as both teams were the top-seeds whom the Astros cheated.

.. or ..

2) strip the World Series win from the Astros and give it to no one.

As a long time baseball fan, I would be happy with either option. If they leave things as they are, I doubt I will ever watch or go to another MLB baseball game.

To be clear, this is not a "if they don't do what I want, I'm not watching" reaction, but rather a logical desire to not waste time wondering if teams are cheating to win because nothing will happen if they do.

When you lose faith in fairness, sports loses its attraction and reason to watch. Fairness covers a lot more than rules of course, but given the massive amount of sports and non-sports content available to fans (people) these days, the last thing any sports organization or league should want is to give their viewers, customers, fans, etc. less reason to watch and spend money on their sport.

As an Astro fan, I feel that our next WS win whenever that might be, will be our first...

 

[Sarek]

Here come the lawsuits.
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-yor...0200124-q4klb46o3ja5fo57vnltlemkui-story.html
It's going to be bad when the Astros visit stadiums in the north east and LA. I would expect many fans throwing food and drink or anything they can find at Astros players. I see quite a few games being cancelled or played in empty stadiums. This thing is no where near over.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

This is the same problem the nfl had....
I just don’t understand how you can allow a team caught cheating to keep their title.
Anything less than taking away their title both incentivizes cheating (who cares about a draft pick or two if you win a title?) and illegitimizes the entire game.
I understand why the leagues are averse to doing that as it will cost them huge in viewership...tosses a wet blanket on the title itself....imagine being awarded the title six months to two years later after losing the game....meh.
But how can we keep watching a game with no integrity?

I hear ya.
I really don’t believe in stripping titles.

But.. when I heard that Altuve, in 2019 ALCS, game 7, was wearing a buzzer and knew Chapman was throwing off speed pitch. Altuve clearly loads up on his swing. It was high, slow and he adjusts too preparedly.

The yankees had just tied it up? Not saying they would have won and gone to World Series but we never had the chance to see if that would happen?

Altuve running home. Clenching his shirt. Telling players not to rip off shirt.

I think 2017 Astros title should vacated.
I think 2018 Red Sox title should vacated.

in 2019... I’m glad Nationals overcame this nonsense.

look at this

from 2:00 to 2:45 mark
Specifically at 2:30 mark

 

[kskboys]

I hear ya.
I really don’t believe in stripping titles.

But.. when I heard that Altuve, in 2019 ALCS, game 7, was wearing a buzzer and knew Chapman was throwing off speed pitch. Altuve clearly loads up on his swing. It was high, slow and he adjusts too preparedly.

The yankees had just tied it up? Not saying they would have won and gone to World Series but we never had the chance to see if that would happen?

Altuve running home. Clenching his shirt. Telling players not to rip off shirt.

I think 2017 Astros title should vacated.
I think 2018 Red Sox title should vacated.

in 2019... I’m glad Nationals overcame this nonsense.

look at this

from 2:00 to 2:45 mark
Specifically at 2:30 mark

If you're going to do that, you'd have to start vacating titles due to steroids.

 

[kskboys]

MLB has no plans to strip Astros, Red Sox of World Series titles, says commissioner Rob Manfred
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id...d-series-titles-says-commissioner-rob-manfred

---

The argument used is "even without sign-stealing there is no guarantee the other team would have won" .. and he's right.

However, the only reason we don't know that is because the Astros cheated.

There are two easy options that could be done fairly.

1) strip the World Series win from the Astros and give it to the Dodgers (NL) and Yankees (AL) as co-World Series Champions as both teams were the top-seeds whom the Astros cheated.

.. or ..

2) strip the World Series win from the Astros and give it to no one.

As a long time baseball fan, I would be happy with either option. If they leave things as they are, I doubt I will ever watch or go to another MLB baseball game.

To be clear, this is not a "if they don't do what I want, I'm not watching" reaction, but rather a logical desire to not waste time wondering if teams are cheating to win because nothing will happen if they do.

When you lose faith in fairness, sports loses its attraction and reason to watch. Fairness covers a lot more than rules of course, but given the massive amount of sports and non-sports content available to fans (people) these days, the last thing any sports organization or league should want is to give their viewers, customers, fans, etc. less reason to watch and spend money on their sport.

Steroids is cheating in even a worse way.

And then you'd have to prove they were the only two teams doing it. Which I highly doubt.

When KC beat NYMets in the world series, they were also strangely taking DeGrom's best pitches.

 

[kskboys]

ksk? Come on, throwing the Yankees under the bus because the Astros cheated? I don't understand that.

Steroids is cheating. Had an even bigger effect on the game.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Steroids is cheating. Had an even bigger effect on the game.

OK, I guess I should start by asking you what Steroids issue, associated with the Yankees are you specifically, referring to? I mean, it's not as if the Astros didn't have guys who were using Roids and that can probably be said for every single team but what does that have to do with cheating linked with the teams being reported? Trust, if the Yankees get linked to cheating, it will be in every new paper in the country.

 

[kskboys]

I hear ya.
I really don’t believe in stripping titles.

But.. when I heard that Altuve, in 2019 ALCS, game 7, was wearing a buzzer and knew Chapman was throwing off speed pitch. Altuve clearly loads up on his swing. It was high, slow and he adjusts too preparedly.

The yankees had just tied it up? Not saying they would have won and gone to World Series but we never had the chance to see if that would happen?

Altuve running home. Clenching his shirt. Telling players not to rip off shirt.

I think 2017 Astros title should vacated.
I think 2018 Red Sox title should vacated.

in 2019... I’m glad Nationals overcame this nonsense.

look at this

from 2:00 to 2:45 mark
Specifically at 2:30 mark

So since the Yankees won titles strictly due to Clements/Pettite pitching out of their minds due to performance enhancing drugs, you are wanted to strip them also, right?

 

[kskboys]

OK, I guess I should start by asking you what Steroids issue, associated with the Yankees are you specifically, referring to? I mean, it's not as if the Astros didn't have guys who were using Roids and that can probably be said for every single team but what does that have to do with cheating linked with the teams being reported? Trust, if the Yankees get linked to cheating, it will be in every new paper in the country.

Clements and Pettite, specifically.

And using that argument, every team is stealing signs, and that can be said for every single team.

You guys are moralizing and acting extremely hypocritical.

I'm not that interested in most of this stuff. Teams have been pulling all sorts of stuff to get an edge since the beginning. Stros found a way and it worked. Good for them.

BTW, if the Yanks had been stealing signs the same way, I'd have the exact same attitude.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Clements and Pettite, specifically.

And using that argument, every team is stealing signs, and that can be said for every single team.

You guys are moralizing and acting extremely hypocritical.

I'm not that interested in most of this stuff. Teams have been pulling all sorts of stuff to get an edge since the beginning. Stros found a way and it worked. Good for them.

BTW, if the Yanks had been stealing signs the same way, I'd have the exact same attitude.

Stealing signs is a part of the game and has been sing the game was invented but this isn't really stealing signs. This is using tech to record them, using that same tech to read them and then using tech to relay that info directly to the batter on every pitch. I mean, I just think that's different.

For the record, Clemons was found not guilty. Pettitte admitted to using HGH for his elbow injury so I got no issue there.

But I'm curious, why are you singling out the Yankees? I mean, Clemons played for Boston, Tornoto, NY and Houston. Heck, Pettitte pitched for Houston as well. So why just the Yankees and not throw shade on the Astros as well, for the whole Peds issue? I mean, Martes was just suspended for using PEDs so I don't get it. Not saying using PEDs is right but here is what I will say, both pitchers and hitters are using PEDs. Where is the clear advantage? Only the Defense is stealing signs. There is a clear advantage to only one side.

If it comes out that the Yankees were stealing signs, then I hope they pay the price but until that happens, I don't see how throwing them under the bus is relevant to the issue.

That's just my opinion.

 

[kskboys]

Stealing signs is a part of the game and has been sing the game was invented but this isn't really stealing signs. This is using tech to record them, using that same tech to read them and then using tech to relay that info directly to the batter on every pitch. I mean, I just think that's different.

For the record, Clemons was found not guilty. Pettitte admitted to using HGH for his elbow injury so I got no issue there.

But I'm curious, why are you singling out the Yankees? I mean, Clemons played for Boston, Tornoto, NY and Houston. Heck, Pettitte pitched for Houston as well. So why just the Yankees and not throw shade on the Astros as well, for the whole Peds issue? I mean, Martes was just suspended for using PEDs so I don't get it. Not saying using PEDs is right but here is what I will say, both pitchers and hitters are using PEDs. Where is the clear advantage? Only the Defense is stealing signs. There is a clear advantage to only one side.

If it comes out that the Yankees were stealing signs, then I hope they pay the price but until that happens, I don't see how throwing them under the bus is relevant to the issue.

That's just my opinion.

Yankees are the obvious example, nothing more than that.

I'm an Astros fan. We cheated. Not denying. We've been punished. Accepted.

Time to move on. You guys' holier than thou attitude is sickening, that's all. Using this vein, you'd put a teenager in prison for life for smoking pot or stealing a candy bar. Exaggeration to make a point? Absolutely.

And, what if? What if the last 8 WS winners are found guilty? If you think teams in the past have not taken advantage where they could, you are extremely naive.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yankees are the obvious example, nothing more than that.

I'm an Astros fan. We cheated. Not denying. We've been punished. Accepted.

Time to move on. You guys' holier than thou attitude is sickening, that's all. Using this vein, you'd put a teenager in prison for life for smoking pot or stealing a candy bar. Exaggeration to make a point? Absolutely.

And, what if? What if the last 8 WS winners are found guilty? If you think teams in the past have not taken advantage where they could, you are extremely naive.

What holier then thou ksk? What happened to the Astros? You paid a fine and some draft picks? Big deal, you guys still have a World Series. I mean, tell me who wouldn't trade the Astros "punishment" in return for a World Series? You guys got slap on the wrist. Big deal.

What if the last 8 WS winners are found guilty? They are gonna get fined and give up a couple draft picks. Big deal, every one of them would take that deal.

I don't get it but whatever, this is a thing for you so go on ahead.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

If you're going to do that, you'd have to start vacating titles due to steroids.

nope.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Steroids is cheating in even a worse way.

And then you'd have to prove they were the only two teams doing it. Which I highly doubt.

When KC beat NYMets in the world series, they were also strangely taking DeGrom's best pitches.

mlb pitchers say you are wrong.