How long until Belichick is considered the greatest ever?

Dfense94;4373187 said:

I don't question that you are in fact confused. Perhaps you could link to where I stated Landy failed.

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You didn't say Landry failed, that was someone else making that case my bad, but you're part of the group telling us all great coaches are tied to one great QB.

But if you take the Staubach years away from Landry he still enjoyed years of success. If you take the Brady years away from Belichick, he's Dave Campo in a cutoff sweatshirt.

Chocolate Lab;4373191 said:

Plus got to NFL Championship games with Meredith...

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Landy was outstanding.

BTW, Danny White and Don Meredith were both very good QBs.

DFWJC;4373199 said:

Landy was outstanding.

BTW, Danny White and Don Meredith were both very good QBs.

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Morton got them to a SB as well.

Risen Star;4373194 said:

You didn't say Landry failed but you're part of the group telling us all great coaches are tied to one great QB.

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Um no. I'm not part of any group. Maybe I, and others, dispute the fact that you're trying to discredit a coaches accomplishments if they don't win with more than 1 QB. Some coaches HAVE been tied to one QB. Doesn't diminish their greatness, IMO. The notion is ridiculous. Especially when the coach drafted the player and coached him his entire career, as BB has with TB.

Risen Star;4373194 said:

But if you take the Staubach years away from Landry he still enjoyed years of success. If you take the Brady years away from Belichick, he's Dave Campo in a cutoff sweatshirt.

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If you take Belichick away from Parcells, Parcells is Marty Schottenheimer with witty comebacks.

Dfense94;4373207 said:

Um no. I'm not part of any group. Maybe I, and others, dispute the fact that you're trying to discredit a coaches accomplishments if they don't win with more than 1 QB. Some coaches HAVE been tied to one QB. Doesn't diminish their greatness, IMO. The notion is ridiculous. Especially when the coach drafted the player and coached him his entire career, as BB has with TB.

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See, but you're not getting it. I'm not discrediting his accomplishments overall. It's just that when you want to claim he's the best ever, then I have to consider the fact all of his success came with what I believe is the best QB to ever play the game. Because I now have to compare him to all the great head coaches of the past. Guys who didn't have all of their success with one all time great QB.

I already consider him a great head coach. I just can not consider him the GOAT until he shows the ability to win without Brady. Especially considering how awful he was in Cleveland and how he mirrored that performance early on in New England.

Dfense94;4373212 said:

If you take Belichick away from Parcells, Parcells is Marty Schottenheimer with witty comebacks.

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Again, the same can be said of Belichick without Crennel. I'm still waiting to see him win a ring without him.

I bet I can play that game with any coach.

Risen Star;4373217 said:

See, but you're not getting it. I'm not discrediting his accomplishments overall. It's just that when you want to claim he's the best ever, then I have to consider the fact all of his success came with what I believe is the best QB to ever play the game. Because I now have to compare him to all the great head coaches of the past. Guys who didn't have all of their success with one all time great QB.

I already consider him a great head coach. I just can not consider him the GOAT until he shows the ability to win without Brady. Especially considering how awful he was in Cleveland and how he mirrored that performance early on in New England.

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Oh. That explains the Campo in a cutoff sweatshirt comparison.

Risen Star;4373219 said:

Again, the same can be said of Belichick without Crennel. I'm still waiting to see him win a ring without him.

I bet I can play that game with any coach.

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That comparison doesn't even make sense. Belichick has won division titles, playoff games, and came within a miracle from winning a Super Bowl without Crennel. Meanwhile, Crennel has been hot garbage without Belichick.

Parcells hasn't so much as won a division title or even a playoff game without Belichick.

Bill Belicheat with Shady Brady?

Definitely not the greatest of all time. They both have an asterisk.

Enjoy the song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EU1O-hGxgg

Dfense94;4373231 said:

That comparison doesn't even make sense. Belichick has won division titles, playoff games, and came within a miracle from winning a Super Bowl without Crennel. Meanwhile, Crennel has been hot garbage without Belichick.

Parcells hasn't so much as won a division title or even a playoff game without Belichick.

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Two different situations. Parcells doesn't stick around in a spot to run up numbers. He comes, rebuilds and bolts. Reclamation projects. It's what he does. He's the Larry Brown of the NFL and most of his entire career was spent with Belichick.

I don't see how you can really compare the two. If Belichick was taking his act elsewhere and having success then I'd probably be right with anyone saying he's the greatest.

Dfense94;4373222 said:

Oh. That explains the Campo in a cutoff sweatshirt comparison.

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I didn't make up his numbers without Brady.

Risen Star;4373246 said:

I didn't make up his numbers without Brady.

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The way you defend Parcells..reminds me of another poster..what was his name again?

Risen Star;4373242 said:

Two different situations. Parcells doesn't stick around in a spot to run up numbers. He comes, rebuilds and bolts. Reclamation projects. It's what he does. He's the Larry Brown of the NFL and most of his entire career was spent with Belichick.

I don't see how you can really compare the two. If Belichick was taking his act elsewhere and having success then I'd probably be right with anyone saying he's the greatest.

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You're incredibly misguided with respects to Parcells coaching career. He's quit the Giants over health concerns. Nothing wrong with that. He's quit every other post because he got burned out. Hence him saying at every PC that he'd never be seen on a sideline again. Then he gets bored, or needs money (divorce) and gets another gig. Thats what he is. I don't have an ax to grind with Parcells. We differ greatly in opinions, so lets just leave it at that. Ultimately, both men end up in the HOF, and like there will never be a resolution as to which QB/RB/WR/Team/ is GOAT, neither will there be a clear cut consensus over coach.

Chris in Arizona;4373259 said:

The way you defend Parcells..reminds me of another poster..what was his name again?

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It's not too obvious, is it?

Lombardi won, what, 5 Titles/Superbowls in 9-10 years of coaching in GB?

They are still spouting off his quotes to this day along with a steady stream of books, movies, broadway plays, etc.

Anything is possible with Bill Belichek, however, he is going to have to win 2-3 more titles, probably some of them with another QB, to get there.

Parcells has won two SBs with two different QBs, made a 3rd SB with another different QB, went to 4 conference championships with 4 different QBs, and left a legacy tree of Belichick, Couglin, and Sean Payton, who have all won SBs now also.

Parcells drafted Bruschi, McGinest, Law, Milloy, Troy Brown and a bunch of others who contributed to those Super Bowl teams. He inherited a 1-15 Pats team and got them to the Super Bowl. Belichick took over a 6-10 Browns team with a handful of pro bowlers and went 36-44.

Belichick's record without Brady (46-50) is worse than Parcells records without Belichick. And Belichick had better talent on his team. Plus, Parcells was able to take two QBs (Testaverde and Bledsoe) deep into the playoffs, while Belichick failed to do the same with either QB.

Plus, if you look at the Giants D in '83, they finished top 5 in the league and had already started developing marquee players like LT prior to Belichick even arriving. Parcells already had the foundation in place, and he's the one who brought Belichick in to begin with. HC should get the credit for putting the right people around him to win titles. The '84 Giants D finished 8th in the league and won a playoff game before Belichick was even promoted to DC, so it's not like he came and turned around that team. The Giants were well on their way thanks to Parcells.

Parcells was also well on his way to winning a playoff game on the road with a first-time starting QB in Dallas but the player failed to execute a snap and we blew it. I love how all these Ginger homer delusional defenders on here will always whine about how the players in Dallas suck, and that's the reason Ginger is not Tom Landry yet, but they're the first to throw Parcells under the bus for not winning a playoff game here. That wildcard loss was a player error. The coaching had Dallas in a position to win no matter how much people wanna whine about us being conservative and not attacking the secondary.

All these Parcells haters are just bitter women who feel he abandoned the team too soon. He hit it and quit, ladies. Get over it and move on. He's the reason the team was exciting for a couple seasons again before Jerry took back over.

This debate is interesting, but in reality, there is no Greatest-of-all-time. Coaches are still coaching, the game and the rules are changing and the NFL has gone through and is still going through some challenging times. It's safe to say that there have been some great coaches and some good coaches, but to rank them is purely subjective.

A few years from now, we might be talking about Mike McCarthy 's success with Green Bay or perhaps Jason Garrett's transformation of the Cowboys. While I would acknowledge Belichick's record as a winner in NE, I'm not sure if he's the innovator that some of his predecessors were. Lombardi, Landry, and Walsh were game changers, along with othrs mentioned here. Putting one above the other, particularly when comparing different eras, really does not do them justice. Again, that is just my opinion.

perrykemp;4373289 said:

Lombardi won, what, 5 Titles/Superbowls in 9-10 years of coaching in GB?

They are still spouting off his quotes to this day along with a steady stream of books, movies, broadway plays, etc.

Anything is possible with Bill Belichek, however, he is going to have to win 2-3 more titles, probably some of them with another QB, to get there.

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There were also a lot fewer teams back then. Almost a completely different league. That's why its so hard to compare from different era's. Otto Graham won more Championships than Montana. But for my money, Montana is the greatest QB of all time.

perrykemp;4373289 said:

Lombardi won, what, 5 Titles/Superbowls in 9-10 years of coaching in GB?

They are still spouting off his quotes to this day along with a steady stream of books, movies, broadway plays, etc.

Anything is possible with Bill Belichek, however, he is going to have to win 2-3 more titles, probably some of them with another QB, to get there.

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Is this that Packers fan that comes on here and starts new threads all the time?

He's like a Midwestern version of Red Dragon.