2005 Commanders=2003 Cowboys

[JohnLockesGhost]

I wouldn't go as far as saying your defense is the best. You have a mediocre secondary. And unless Andre Carter is the pass rusher you guys hope he is, that defense won't be that dominant. No one said cellar of the division either, but there are alot of question marks on your team, but frankly, all NFC East teams have them.

I wouldn't say that Wash has no good DL players. Salave'a is very good. Daniels and Carter are adequate.

Because of Tiki Barbers age and wear (he will not have another season like he did last year), I would give you guys the nod at RB in the division.

Problem is, you are like us at QB. Unproven youngsters, and an aging starter. Bledsoe, IMO, was better than Brunell, and has more in the tank.

Salave'a is a fan favorite because he plays his butt off, but he's not the tackle that Cornelius Griffin is. Griffin may be the best tackle in the division. I think Daniels is pretty good, he came on strong near the end of the season. He must've had like four deflected passes in the Cowboys, Giants, Eagle, Bucs and Seahawks games. Wynn is a good run stopper, but lacks on the pass rush. We'll have to see how Carter works out. Here's hoping.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Griffin may be the best tackle in the division.

that's not saying much

 

[illone]

Teams always settle. Would any team want Randle El over someone more proven? Of course not. Walker is a special case as he is still not fully back from a knee injury, otherwise yes I suspect the Skins would have rather had Walker. Hes been a better player than either of the two guys you acquired have been.

See the difference is you suspect(don't really know) if we would have wanted Walker.

I already know.

We can't ever have an intelligent debate until those two minor facts are brought to light, don't you think?

Plenty of teams wanted Randle-El. Philly and Chicago come to mind.

Help me understand what you consider to be proven.....

To me a guy coming off that type of knee injury has more to prove than a guy (Randle-El) who's never been hurt.

 

[5Stars]

See the difference is you suspect(don't really know) if we would have wanted Walker.

I already know.

We can't ever have an intelligent debate until those two minor facts are brought to light, don't you think?

Plenty of teams wanted Randle-El. Philly and Chicago come to mind.

Help me understand what you consider to be proven.....

To me a guy coming off that type of knee injury has more to prove than a guy (Randle-El) who's never been hurt.

And, sickone, tell us how "you already know"!

Show us your credentials that you work for the RedStinks!

You don't know nothing...what you "think" you know, is probably what your "read" at ES...AFTER THE FACT!

If you are going to say something so stupid as "I already know"...prove it to us...I dare you to PROVE to us that the Midget did not want Walker....can you? And, I'm talking prior to you guys signing Randle El...

Show us how "you already knew"!

You can't, period! Your a freaking fan...unless you can prove that you work for the RedStinks! Let's see you get out of this one...sickone!

:dissskin:

 

[illone]

You don't have to be a inside guy to know that we didn't want him. The evidence is quite clear and right in front of you. You just don't care to open your eyes and see it.

 

[5Stars]

You don't have to be a inside guy to know that we didn't want him. The evidence is quite clear and right in front of you. You just don't care to open your eyes and see it.

Show me...! Where is it, so I can see for myself!

Show us Cowboy fans how YOU "already knew"...

Come on....don't dance...show us! You said it! Back it up, or shut up! It's that simple....

Can you, sickone?

:dissskin:

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Griffin is superb. One thing I notice about Washington is they are very good in short yardage defense, especially in the crucial downs. Usually Griffin is leading the way by getting superb penetration and Marcus Washington is there as well. To me, in the past two years Griffin is to short yardage defense as David Ortiz is to clutch hitting.

Salave'a is a good hole plugging, run stopper and block eater. Sometimes people underestimate the effectiveness of those guys.

Wynn and Daniels are pretty much just run stoppers. I think Daniels is completely overhyped by the Washington crowd. 4 of his 8 sacks last season came in one game....against Torrin Tucker....the worst tackle in the game. Before that game, Daniels had a whopping 6 sacks in the previous 36 games. Wynn really isn't much better.

It's obvious that Washington wanted something better than what they got out of Wynn and Daniels because they wound up getting Carter. Carter's best season was in 2002 in a somewhat similar system. However, he was hurt in 2003 and 2004 and was probably playing in the wrong scheme for him in 2005. Whether or not he can return to his 2002 form is pretty questionable.

If Griffin gets hurt, that will probably greatly affect the defense because Marshall doesn't take blockers on well at all and I'll always take my chances the more opportunities the Cowboys can get the Holdman.


Rich..............

 

[illone]

If Griffin gets hurt, that will probably greatly affect the defense because Marshall doesn't take blockers on well at all and I'll always take my chances the more opportunities the Cowboys can get the Holdman.

Right again, Rich. You saw what happened last year when Griffin was out (TB and Oakland games).

Griffin is definitely as you described.

 

[MONT17]

Mont17, the problem with your logic (lack there of) is that you don't realize that the Skins don't settle for anyone. We get what/who we want. Period.

If you don't know this already I suggest you start paying closer attention. See even the rest of the NFL knows this. You should really follow along. It's not too difficult.

Agents ALWAYS use the Skins as marketing strategy when a player hits the market. Notice the Skins are always in the rumor mill as potential landing spots for free agents?

Yea, that's called driving the price up, or at least trying to.

We could have had Walker. We didn't want him.

my lack of knowledge (please save personal attacks after all football points have been made) has inspired you to talk so far off a subject that you have managed to equate FREE AGENCY and INFLATED MARKET VALUE with PLAYER TRADES!


anyway... just to let u know my post was about WHY SKINs fans think the Skins will be better in 06! they agree with the moves the team has made in the offseason... thats all!


I'm not rippin the Skins, they did the best they could... I'm rippin the Skins fans who think every move from DAVID PATTEN to CHRISTAIN FURIA is a stellar move! The Skins did what they could do... all I'm saying is the skins fans agree because they would have done the same thing and have ZERO objectivity!





so as you were saying... the Skins get who they want, right? where does TYSON WALTER fit on that mandate?

Has an NFL team ever told its fan base we got a player we "didnt want"? or are the skins the alone? or is this a new practice for the Skins in 06 after they signed DAVID PATTEN!!!



Dont answer that!!!

 

[superpunk]

I was trying to make some NFL fans believe that griffin was one of the best DTs in the league a few months ago - they weren't having it. He doesn't put up the numbers of the pass rushing DTs, but without him, the Skins are a different team. Him and Springs getting healthy is why they made the playoffs.

 

[Derinyar]

See the difference is you suspect(don't really know) if we would have wanted Walker.

I already know.

We can't ever have an intelligent debate until those two minor facts are brought to light, don't you think?

Plenty of teams wanted Randle-El. Philly and Chicago come to mind.

Help me understand what you consider to be proven.....

To me a guy coming off that type of knee injury has more to prove than a guy (Randle-El) who's never been hurt.

I'm curious what your source is that you "know". Right now your sounding like a troll. What we as fans know is usually what teams choose to tell us after the fact, unless your claiming better access than fans have. I suspect few people on message boards have the insider access that some of them claim to have, if they did they wouldn't risk losing it because they spouted off about what they knew on a message board.

WR 1 64g, 162 receptions, 2012 Yards, 7 TD
WR 2 43g, 105 receptions, 1510 Yards, 13 TD
WR 3 47g, 157 receptions, 2444 Yards, 22 TD

I know which of those lines looks like the best of the three WR. So do you, but you will never admit it. Now if you want to make the argument that the Skins didn't want to/couldn't afford to give up the pick it would have taken to get Walker, then I can begin to agree with that. If you question about whether his knee is going to get back to 100% to start the year, I can buy that. To question which WR has proven the most in the NFL, I can't buy that other than in support of an agenda. Walker has proven he can be a teams #1 WR. The other two are still in the middle of proving they can be a good complimentary WR.

There are injuries one worries about in football more than others. Walker had a knee ligament injury, those players come back from all the time. If we were talking about an achillies injury, then I would be much more worried about his recovery. That type of injury tends to be much harder to come back from and be anywhere near 100%.

As for having an intelligent debate with you, yes I doubt that is possible as you have shown no debating abilities what so ever. You claim to have specific knowledge that no one outside the front office of the Skins would actually have. You claim that anyone who doesn't agree with what you think is obviously ill informed and flat out wrong. Yes, some teams did want Randle El. Those teams didn't need to gamble with anything but a couple of years worth of cap money. Ask yourself this, since you seem to be compairing Walker with Randle El mostly, would you have been willing to trade a second round pick for him?

 

[JohnLockesGhost]

my lack of knowledge (please save personal attacks after all football points have been made) has inspired you to talk so far off a subject that you have managed to equate FREE AGENCY and INFLATED MARKET VALUE with PLAYER TRADES!

anyway... just to let u know my post was about WHY SKINs fans think the Skins will be better in 06! they agree with the moves the team has made in the offseason... thats all!

I'm not rippin the Skins, they did the best they could... I'm rippin the Skins fans who think every move from DAVID PATTEN to CHRISTAIN FURIA is a stellar move! The Skins did what they could do... all I'm saying is the skins fans agree because they would have done the same thing and have ZERO objectivity!

so as you were saying... the Skins get who they want, right? where does TYSON WALTER fit on that mandate?

Has an NFL team ever told its fan base we got a player we "didnt want"? or are the skins the alone? or is this a new practice for the Skins in 06 after they signed DAVID PATTEN!!!

Dont answer that!!!

As a Skins fan, I believe the moves will work out (most likely that is) is because of Gibbs' history of making great moves in just the past two years. You choose to focus on David Patten (who may have been a slight disappointment but hasn't played his last down for the Skins) but you ignore everything else.

Bringing in Griffin.
Bringing in Moss
Bringing in Washington
Bringing in Portis
Drafting Cooley
Drafting Rogers
Drafting Taylor
Recruiting Gregg Williams and Al Saunders

Some of these moves have yet to be fully validated, but so far Gibbs has had the Midas touch. If David Patten is his worst move, the Skins are in for a helluva year.

 

[5Stars]

I'm curious what your source is that you "know". Right now your sounding like a troll. What we as fans know is usually what teams choose to tell us after the fact, unless your claiming better access than fans have. I suspect few people on message boards have the insider access that some of them claim to have, if they did they wouldn't risk losing it because they spouted off about what they knew on a message board.

sickone is a freaking troll...! And, that troll needs to roll...!

He avoids any questions that gets him in a spot...!

It's a pattern that has become very annoying!

 

[ouvan59]

That was 2004 when you had Marshall playing weakside and Pierce playing MLB.

In 2005 you had Marshall playing MLB and Holdman playing weakside until Arrington took over Holdman's spot.

Marshall+Pierce in 2004 > Arrington+Marshall in 2005

Arrington+Marshall in 2005 >> Holdman+Marshall in 2005

You're average ypc went down by a full yard with him starting in 2005. Unless Holdman (projected starter) improves tremendously or some other factor happens (i.e. Archuleta) Arrington's impact will probably be missed.

While it may be true that the Skins gave up more ypc with Lavar in there than Holdman you are leaving out some very important details.

1. Lavar did not play against Denver, Kansas City, or Seattle, the #2, #3 & #4 ranked rushing offenses in the NFL last year.

2. In Lavar's 9 starts the Skins gave up 316 yards per game. Those teams averaged 320 yards per game on the year.

3. In Holdman's 7 starts the Skins allowed 274 yards per game. Those teams averaged 338 yards per game for the year.

4. In Lavar's 9 starts the Skins gave up 20.78 points per game. Those teams averaged 21.0 points per game.

5. In Holdman's 7 starts the Skins gave up 15.1 points per game. Those teams averaged 21.7 points per game.

6. The teams Lavar started against had a combined record of 68-76

7. The teams Holdman started against had a combined record of 70-42.

8. Lavar Arrington has had 1 sack and zero interceptions the last two years.

9. The Skins had a 5-4 record with Lavar in there. They had a 5-2 record with Holdman in there.

The Giants may be getting a heck of a playmaker if Lavar is healthy again but it is a real stretch to say he was a huge playmaker for the Skins in either of the last two years.

 

[JohnLockesGhost]

While it may be true that the Skins gave up more ypc with Lavar in there than Holdman you are leaving out some very important details.

1. Lavar did not play against Denver, Kansas City, or Seattle, the #2, #3 & #4 ranked rushing offenses in the NFL last year.

2. In Lavar's 9 starts the Skins gave up 316 yards per game. Those teams averaged 320 yards per game on the year.

3. In Holdman's 7 starts the Skins allowed 274 yards per game. Those teams averaged 338 yards per game for the year.

4. In Lavar's 9 starts the Skins gave up 20.78 points per game. Those teams averaged 21.0 points per game.

5. In Holdman's 7 starts the Skins gave up 15.1 points per game. Those teams averaged 21.7 points per game.

6. The teams Lavar started against had a combined record of 68-76

7. The teams Holdman started against had a combined record of 70-42.

8. Lavar Arrington has had 1 sack and zero interceptions the last two years.

9. The Skins had a 5-4 record with Lavar in there. They had a 5-2 record with Holdman in there.

The Giants may be getting a heck of a playmaker if Lavar is healthy again but it is a real stretch to say he was a huge playmaker for the Skins in either of the last two years.

Lavar DID have that one interception in the Tampa game. Hit him right in the numbers. I do think he dropped an easy one in the Raiders? game.

 

[5Stars]

Lavar DID have that one interception in the Tampa game. Hit him right in the numbers. I do think he dropped an easy one in the Raiders? game.

I'm one Cowboy fan that actually wanted Lavar...I think he is a good player in the right scheme...with the right coach...

He's not as bad as some think...and I'm NOT glad the he went to the Giants!

(dirty bastid...knocking out my HOF QB)!!!!!!!!

 

[Yakuza Rich]

The Giants may be getting a heck of a playmaker if Lavar is healthy again but it is a real stretch to say he was a huge playmaker for the Skins in either of the last two years.

I never said he was a playmaker. He was a big impact on their defense. One look at the team's sacks, yards allowed per carry, turnovers, etc. will show a dramatic difference.

And that was 2 games without Griffin and 1 game without Taylor.

He was a far better player than Holdman was last year.


Rich...........

 

[ouvan59]

Lavar DID have that one interception in the Tampa game. Hit him right in the numbers. I do think he dropped an easy one in the Raiders? game.

He did at that but I was only including the regular season since that's what they report on nfl.com. Lavar's interception against the Raiders was actually called an interception initially but overturned on review (I think it was the Raiders game).

Again I am not trying to state that Lavar isn't a good player only that he was not a big reason for the success of the defense the last two years so the loss of him shouldn't play a big factor unless Holdman and/or McIntosh forget how to walk. Just like the loss of Dat Nguyen does not indicate a big dropoff for the Cowboys.

Now if Cornelius Griffin, Marcus Washington, Shawn Springs or Sean Taylor goes down that will have a huge impact on the defense.

 

[ouvan59]

I never said he was a playmaker. He was a big impact on their defense. One look at the team's sacks, yards allowed per carry, turnovers, etc. will show a dramatic difference.

And that was 2 games without Griffin and 1 game without Taylor.

He was a far better player than Holdman was last year.

I believe it was the original poster who stated that the Skins were losing a big playmaker. And the sacks, turnovers etc. had very little to do with Lavar since I believe he was in on a total of four 3rd downs all season long. Lavar was in on running downs and that is it which should tell you a lot considering most people consider Gregg Williams a pretty good defensive mind.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Again I am not trying to state that Lavar isn't a good player only that he was not a big reason for the success of the defense the last two years so the loss of him shouldn't play a big factor unless Holdman and/or McIntosh forget how to walk. Just like the loss of Dat Nguyen does not indicate a big dropoff for the Cowboys.

Again, you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I didn't say he was the big reason for their defensive success in the past two years. However, stats indicate that he was a significant upgrade over Holdman and the defense was impacted by it in 2005. Holdman is schedule to start and unless he somehow rekindles his old form back 5 years ago, I doubt he'll have the impact Lavar had last season when he returned as the starter.

The big difference between Dallas losing Nguyen is that Dallas played most of the season without him. And if you want to mention Glover, according to KC Joyer the run defense was much better statistically with Ferguson than it was with Glover.

Essentially, Washington lost by far the better of the two LB's and a guy that more favorably impacted the defense and are returning the lesser player.


Rich.........