2007 CB Tandems - KC Joyner - 6/6/08

[dcfanatic]

I think what Adam is pointing out is that despite the fact that we had injuries in the secondary forcing a 3rd (at best) string CB into the starting lineup, we were near tops in the league. Adding the players we did should only make things better.

If you want to focus on a 1st down via passing statistic while completely throwing out all other stats, fine, have your agenda. Problem is that league average is 182, we allowed 195. League best, tied between Oakland and Kansas City (Combined won 8 games) was 156. We could easily tie their mark if, instead of stopping teams after two first downs and a punt, we allowed them to throw a deep pass for a TD. Or if we wouldn't score so much and allow teams to move the ball in garbage time.

Right over your head.

The point was that stats are misleading.

Watch the game. The Cowboys pass defense wasn't that great last season and we all know it. So why try to mask it by pulling the 'good stats'.

Why even waste the time.

 

[theogt]

So then you are saying the pass defense last season was 'great' as Adam's stats would have you believe?

It's a simple yes or no answer and we are all waiting for you.

Who said it was great? It was extremely good considering we were playing Reeves and Jones so much. Great? No. But the statistics don't show that it was great.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

You are making the point about the secondary not being that good last season just by referring to the upgrades that had to be made, lol.

doesn't matter if we didn't need to upgrade from our 3rd corner

he left us and was one of the 1st CBs to be signed in free agency

 

[peplaw06]

Right over your head.

The point was that stats are misleading.

Watch the game. The Cowboys pass defense wasn't that great last season and we all know it. So why try to mask it by pulling the 'good stats'.

Why even waste the time.

Passing defense stats are all relative. I bet every defense in the league thinks they can do better against the pass than they did last season. But the number one pass defense in the league probably has less room for improvement than the last pass defense in the league, don't you think?

If there are more good stats than bad ones, then relatively speaking, I'd say that our pass defense has less room for improvement than the last ranked pass defense.

What's misleading is you trying to place labels like 'good' or 'great' on a statistical argument where the stats are relative to league-wide performance.

And the moves we made in the draft and FA, when looked at in a vacuum are misleading as well. We were 13-3, had a Top 5 offense, and an above average defense. We didn't lose too many people in FA, so we didn't have as many holes to fill. That is a luxury. And it gave us the ability to address a problem... depth at cornerback, especially after losing two CBs.

So we lost two CBs and brought in three... three guys that it's pretty safe to say will be better than the two we lost. We turned our depth at CB issue into a strength.

It's interesting to note that we didn't bring in any safeties though.

 

[dallasfaniac]

Right over your head.

The point was that stats are misleading.

Watch the game. The Cowboys pass defense wasn't that great last season and we all know it. So why try to mask it by pulling the 'good stats'.

Why even waste the time.

Which teams were better? Which secondaries were not the weak link in an NFL that favors passing offenses? We moved the ball at will against the Superbowl Champion Giants the first two games, and had we not experienced injury bug to our WR corpe and another quitting on a route, we would have bested them a 3rd. You seem to think Dallas is the only team, so who's better?

 

[jobberone]

No kidding David.

Now imagine Mike Jenkins replacing 7th round pick Jacques Reeves, 4th round pick Orlando Scandrick replacing 7th round pick Nate Jones, with 1st round pick Adam Jones and 7th round pick Alan Ball as trump cards. All this with Dave Campo doing what he does best - train defensive backs.

Oh yeah, let's not forget the front seven players with another year's experience under their belts.

I'll take my chances with this group.

There are NO excuses this season.

No there are no excuses. Not now. If TO and/or Romo goes down. Or we lose Ellis or Ware and Spencer doesn't step up. You get the picture. Somethings could go wrong and screw our chances up. But in general you're right as rain. Anything less than SB victory will be disappointing.

Right over your head.

The point was that stats are misleading.

Watch the game. The Cowboys pass defense wasn't that great last season and we all know it. So why try to mask it by pulling the 'good stats'.

Why even waste the time.

The stats look good. But it's obvious that was our weakest link. Even when we knew they were going to throw we still gave it up at times. If your defense can't stop teams when they really need to and give up game losing points then you have a problem.

If we were so good last year why would they can two DBs, have another rededicate themselves, draft two DBs, and claim Pacman when no other team was interested? Yes there are individual arguments to ameliorate some or all those items but in toto you can't deny the team rebuilding the DBs for good reasons. And stats don't tell all and see all. They are just as important as subjectively looking at problems. But not more important.

 

[theogt]

Most fans will never like a "bend but don't break" defense. That's exactly what we ran last year, and it meant giving up the small, underneath plays. We virtually eliminated the intermediate and long passes, though, for most of the season.

In my opinion, that's why the statistics look good, yet many fans were unhappy. It was the best style of defense given our personnel at the time. Maybe this year we can mix it up a bit.

 

[AdamJT13]

Yet if I watched the game I saw them routinely giving up first downs and being the reason we didn't win every game by 14 points.

You sound like Wade with the stats bro.

You sound like you've never watched any other teams play. Or maybe you just don't pay attention.

 

[Eskimo]

It was the best style of defense given our personnel at the time. Maybe this year we can mix it up a bit.

We definitely have the pesonnel to play a pressure type defense now. Given that is Wade's preference, it will be interesting to see how often we send 5 or 6 guys after the QB this year.

 

[AdamJT13]

Some of you guys need to get off the homer bus and just understand that some of us don't want to sugarcoat every little facet of the teams deficiencies by finding some stats that can make it sound like everything was ok. Wade does enough of that for all of us.

Hello? You were responding in A THREAD ABOUT CORNERBACK STATS, saying you couldn't believe that our secondary ranked high in any kind of statistical report. So when it was pointed out that our secondary ranked high in a lot of statistical reports, you're claiming that people are "sugarcoating deficiencies by finding some stats that can make it sound like everything was OK"? That makes no sense whatsoever. The original post was from an ESPN.com article, not some fan trying to sugarcoat anything.

The article was based on statistics. We ranked high, statistically. Therefore, it should not be surprising to anyone that were were ranked high in an article based on statistics.

 

[peplaw06]

Hello? You were responding in A THREAD ABOUT CORNERBACK STATS, saying you couldn't believe that our secondary ranked high in any kind of statistical report. So when it was pointed out that our secondary ranked high in a lot of statistical reports, you're claiming that people are "sugarcoating deficiencies by finding some stats that can make it sound like everything was OK"? That makes no sense whatsoever. The original post was from an ESPN.com article, not some fan trying to sugarcoat anything.

The article was based on statistics. We ranked high, statistically. Therefore, it should not be surprising to anyone that were were ranked high in an article based on statistics.

Not only that, but he is the Thread Starter.

He found and posted an article that completely contradicts his position.

 

[dallasfaniac]

I understand the belief that our secondary was the weak spot of our defense because I think it was too, however I also understand that it is an issue that plagues every team in the NFL, which has done everything in their power to make sure that offenses have the advantage.

I guess it's just something I don't understand about many fans, who think the grass is always greener. These fans want to get rid of Williams, Jones, Crayton etc. because of players on other rosters, yet you go to forums for the teams these players are part of and their fans want to get rid of them too, often times for the very players we are trying to get rid of.

The only thing I can chalk it up to is that fans don't watch other teams like they do their own. How else would Seattle fans be so high on bring in Julius? On our own site we have some people very high on Pacman, even though he only had one good year, is a huge distraction off the field and has been away from the game for over a year. Sure he might return to form and be a good player, but the fact that he is already penciled in as the starter by some speaks volumes.

 

[BaybeeJay]

I love how dcfanatic got completely owned in a thread he started. I will never visit his blog because of this showing. Not that he would overtly care though.

he really just doesn't know what a good secondary looks like in the nfl.

 

[dcfanatic]

Hello? You were responding in A THREAD ABOUT CORNERBACK STATS, saying you couldn't believe that our secondary ranked high in any kind of statistical report. So when it was pointed out that our secondary ranked high in a lot of statistical reports, you're claiming that people are "sugarcoating deficiencies by finding some stats that can make it sound like everything was OK"? That makes no sense whatsoever. The original post was from an ESPN.com article, not some fan trying to sugarcoat anything.

The article was based on statistics. We ranked high, statistically. Therefore, it should not be surprising to anyone that were were ranked high in an article based on statistics.

Based on what I saw over 17 games I, along with most fans who aren't complete homers, would be surprised that the secondary ranked high in any category.

You filled your post with the 'good pass defensive stats'.

Your agenda was to alert us that the Cowboys pass defense was 'great', but it wasn't. In that agenda you were trying to refute my thought.

You are the semantics king around here. It's pretty sad. I mean it's no secret Roy Williams has not only ruined his rep but has also ruined yours. lol.

But great job on the stats pulling Wade.

 

[dcfanatic]

Not only that, but he is the Thread Starter.

He found and posted an article that completely contradicts his position.

And what's your point?

I have already said stats are the end all so you don't have one.

If having the best stats were the end all the season would end after 16 games and they would give away a trophy, lol.

Thank you.

 

[dcfanatic]

I understand the belief that our secondary was the weak spot of our defense because I think it was too, however I also understand that it is an issue that plagues every team in the NFL, which has done everything in their power to make sure that offenses have the advantage.

I guess it's just something I don't understand about many fans, who think the grass is always greener. These fans want to get rid of Williams, Jones, Crayton etc. because of players on other rosters, yet you go to forums for the teams these players are part of and their fans want to get rid of them too, often times for the very players we are trying to get rid of.

The only thing I can chalk it up to is that fans don't watch other teams like they do their own. How else would Seattle fans be so high on bring in Julius? On our own site we have some people very high on Pacman, even though he only had one good year, is a huge distraction off the field and has been away from the game for over a year. Sure he might return to form and be a good player, but the fact that he is already penciled in as the starter by some speaks volumes.

THE GRASS IS GREENER!

The grass has names too: Jones, Jenkins and Scandrick.

I am starting to think you guys just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

The secondary was the weak link. End of story.

 

[AdamJT13]

Based on what I saw over 17 games I, along with most fans who aren't complete homers, would be surprised that the secondary ranked high in any category.

So, people who actually pay attention are "complete homers"?

Anyone who paid attention knows that our secondary ranked high in most statistics and therefore wouldn't be "surprised" that it ranked high "in any category," considering that it ranked high in most categories.

You filled your post with the 'good pass defensive stats'.

Just about every pass defense stat there is was a "good pass defense stat" --

Passer rating allowed? Fifth in the NFL.

Touchdown percentage allowed? Fourth in the NFL.

Interception percentage? Thirteenth in the NFL.

Completion percentage allowed? Ninth in the NFL.

Yards allowed per attempt? Seventh in the NFL.

Yards allowed per completion? Thirteenth in the NFL.

First downs allowed per attempt? Fifteenth in the NFL.

First downs allowed per completion? Twenty-second in the NFL.

Long pass percentage allowed? Seventh in the NFL.

Passing DVOA? Ninth in the NFL.

Passing VOA? Ninth in the NFL.

AYA per attempt? Sixth in the NFL.


We were above-average in 11 out of 12 stats and among the top nine in eight out of 12 stats.

If you know of ANY other pass defense stats in which we were below-average, please share.

Your agenda was to alert us that the Cowboys pass defense was 'great', but it wasn't. In that agenda you were trying to refute my thought.

OK, I'll admit it. My "agenda" is to point out the truth to the misinformed. Sorry.

 

[burmafrd]

Mark Twain said it best:

"There are lies, there are DAMN lies, then there are statistics."

Statistically speaking we had a good secondary last year. BUT at critical times it failed us. A lot of that was due to Reeves. Some of it was due to Roy. Some of it was due to injuries to Newman and Henry.

 

[BaybeeJay]

I know that the 2008 secondary is going to look and play a lot better than the 2007 secondary, lol.

So tell us BaybeeJay. What are your top five 'crunkest' secondaries? lol.

No, you can't use the Madden ratings either.

I think you fail to realize how foolish you look. You post a thread that uses stats to quantify how the Cowboys secondary played in relation to other secondaries in the league. You then berate people who interpret those stats (correctly) because they fail to realize that the secondary was the weakest link on the team. I guess your brain cannot wrap around the idea that the secondary, while one of the weaker spots of the team, was still competent and above average in relation to the rest of the league. You have to evaluate players and groups of players relative to their peers in the context of current trends in the league, NOT based on some nebulous and myopic understanding of the game.

P.S. I don't play madden. Its a terribly constructed game with clunky and unrealistic gameplay. If you are looking for a great sports video game, you should pick up the Winning Eleven series.

 

[BaybeeJay]

Passing defense stats are all relative. I bet every defense in the league thinks they can do better against the pass than they did last season. But the number one pass defense in the league probably has less room for improvement than the last pass defense in the league, don't you think?

If there are more good stats than bad ones, then relatively speaking, I'd say that our pass defense has less room for improvement than the last ranked pass defense.

What's misleading is you trying to place labels like 'good' or 'great' on a statistical argument where the stats are relative to league-wide performance.

And the moves we made in the draft and FA, when looked at in a vacuum are misleading as well. We were 13-3, had a Top 5 offense, and an above average defense. We didn't lose too many people in FA, so we didn't have as many holes to fill. That is a luxury. And it gave us the ability to address a problem... depth at cornerback, especially after losing two CBs.

So we lost two CBs and brought in three... three guys that it's pretty safe to say will be better than the two we lost. We turned our depth at CB issue into a strength.

It's interesting to note that we didn't bring in any safeties though.

I like how dcfanatic has taken the time to address everyone's post except for this one. Silly man. . .