2nd round pick

[big dog cowboy]

for me, it is about the back issue.

Tappers back will be fine.

 

[jday]

or perhaps no one even wanted oscan, who was not playing that well in 2016.
value and patience are important to building the foundation.
to get the finishing piece, one may have to lose on the value calculation.

That's possible. But the reality is the Cowboys don't have much tradable capital to begin with, aside from valuable future picks...picks that will be key to their ascension in future years.

 

[big dog cowboy]

if tapper was cured of his back issue.

Tappers back will be fine.

 

[ThreeandOut]

if tapper was cured of his back issue, i think this would be a less important issue.

The status of Tappers back doesn't impact their evaluation of those players. I just don't think they liked any of them enough to take at 60.

 

[waldoputty]

That's possible. But the reality is the Cowboys don't have much tradable capital to begin with, aside from valuable future picks...picks that will be key to their ascension in future years.

they have plenty of picks in 2018 to do a trade.
i already listed the number of expected FAs, of which only 2 (dlaw and hitchens) are possible starters and nothing special.
both also have ready available replacements inhouse already.

2018 draft priorities are RT and DE if not met by Taco and others. also possibly WR.
other than that, you got a bunch of 2nd or 3rd string players that will be churned like Bell, Cleary, Mcfadden, Paea, Wilber, Butler, Cooper, Morris

 

[waldoputty]

The status of Tappers back doesn't impact their evaluation of those players. I just don't think they liked any of them enough to take at 60.

it may not impact them, but it does after their needs.
they did say they draft based on bpa and need.
furthermore, at least basham if not rivers was on the list of 30

 

[jday]

they have plenty of picks in 2018 to do a trade.
i already listed the number of expected FAs, of which only 2 (dlaw and hitchens) are possible starters and nothing special.
both also have ready available replacements inhouse already.

2018 draft priorities are RT and DE if not met by Taco and others. also possibly WR.
other than that, you got a bunch of 2nd or 3rd string players that will be churned like Bell, Cleary, Mcfadden, Paea, Wilber, Butler, Cooper, Morris

Again, you are assuming that the Cowboys already had a willing trade partner that was not simultaneously attempting to fleece them. The point system is a suggestion, not a law. By point system, I'm referring to the Jimmy Johnson value chart for draft picks. To my understanding, ever team has a copy of this value chart. That said, they don't follow it to the letter. Based on the calling team's need, they may demand more than what the value charts deems fair. And if they do, more often than not, the smart play is no play.

The other thing I think your thinking my be afflicted by is a want to win now; this season...come what may in the future. There's nothing out of the ordinary about that line of thinking; we've all done it. But very few trades can be point to that are the single reason a team went to the Super Bowl. As far as I'm concerned, that one move doesn't exist. And that is especially the case when you are making a move for a draft pick to draft what is at the end of the day an unknown commodity. It's a huge risk; especially when you mortgage your future to do it. For me, that's should be the standard for such moves. If you think you are one player away from getting to the Super Bowl and that player is available in the draft and you have a willing trade partner: then do it. But if you don't believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that that move will garner you a trip to the Super Bowl, don't do it...ever, ever, ever.

 

[Bizwah]

Again, you are assuming that the Cowboys already had a willing trade partner that was not simultaneously attempting to fleece them. The point system is a suggestion, not a law. By point system, I'm referring to the Jimmy Johnson value chart for draft picks. To my understanding, ever team has a copy of this value chart. That said, they don't follow it to the letter. Based on the calling team's need, they may demand more than what the value charts deems fair. And if they do, more often than not, the smart play is no play.

The other thing I think your thinking my be afflicted by is a want to win now; this season...come what may in the future. There's nothing out of the ordinary about that line of thinking; we've all done it. But very few trades can be point to that are the single reason a team went to the Super Bowl. As far as I'm concerned, that one move doesn't exist. And that is especially the case when you are making a move for a draft pick to draft what is at the end of the day an unknown commodity. It's a huge risk; especially when you mortgage your future to do it. For me, that's should be the standard for such moves. If you think you are one player away from getting to the Super Bowl and that player is available in the draft and you have a willing trade partner: then do it. But if you don't believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that that move will garner you a trip to the Super Bowl, don't do it...ever, ever, ever.

Thank you! This happens to be a pet peeve of mine. Every year after the draft fans will lament, "we could've traded down for more picks!"

I guess the assumption is you tell another team you want to trade for picks and they are obligated to throw them at you. I mean, I guess if you're New England that happens....

Trading isn't what it seems in the draft. Like you said...you don't wanted fleeced (see Chicago Bears). I know this is second-guessing season, but enjoy the new player we have. By most opinions (esp. Dane Brugler), we won the draft.

 

[waldoputty]

Again, you are assuming that the Cowboys already had a willing trade partner that was not simultaneously attempting to fleece them. The point system is a suggestion, not a law. By point system, I'm referring to the Jimmy Johnson value chart for draft picks. To my understanding, ever team has a copy of this value chart. That said, they don't follow it to the letter. Based on the calling team's need, they may demand more than what the value charts deems fair. And if they do, more often than not, the smart play is no play.

The other thing I think your thinking my be afflicted by is a want to win now; this season...come what may in the future. There's nothing out of the ordinary about that line of thinking; we've all done it. But very few trades can be point to that are the single reason a team went to the Super Bowl. As far as I'm concerned, that one move doesn't exist. And that is especially the case when you are making a move for a draft pick to draft what is at the end of the day an unknown commodity. It's a huge risk; especially when you mortgage your future to do it. For me, that's should be the standard for such moves. If you think you are one player away from getting to the Super Bowl and that player is available in the draft and you have a willing trade partner: then do it. But if you don't believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that that move will garner you a trip to the Super Bowl, don't do it...ever, ever, ever.

sure i want to win now, we all do.
to win now, the way is FA, but that boat has sailed.
we all know working through the draft already means a likely delay of 1 year to collect substantial reward.
so we are likely talking 2018 already.
if the pick does not work out, then we are talking 2019.
that would be 2 years of Zeke's prime given the short time fuse on RBs.
and Dez will not likely be the same - i posted that WR aging curve numerous times already.

I understand the value of the value chart.
but this is the last piece and it is a major piece.
valuable pieces often do not come easy especially if the other side know what the trade could mean.
cannot expect a gift like the 49ers gave us in Haley for only a 2nd round pick.

there were many 3rd round trades though most involved lower 3rd round picks - so it is a matter of working out compensation for 2018 picks. this is the only case of a 2018 pick i could find.
Saints stockpile RBs after trade with 49ers

Saints receive:
» 2017 third-round pick (No. 67): Alvin Kamara, RB, Tennessee

49ers receive:
» 2017 seventh-round pick (No. 229): Adrian Colbert, DB, Miami
» 2018 second-round pick

 

[jday]

sure i want to win now, we all do.
to win now, the way is FA, but that boat has sailed.
we all know working through the draft already means a likely delay of 1 year to collect substantial reward.
so we are likely talking 2018 already.
if the pick does not work out, then we are talking 2019.
that would be 2 years of Zeke's prime given the short time fuse on RBs.
and Dez will not likely be the same - i posted that WR aging curve numerous times already.

I understand the value of the value chart.
but this is the last piece and it is a major piece.
valuable pieces often do not come easy especially if the other side know what the trade could mean.
cannot expect a gift like the 49ers gave us in Haley for only a 2nd round pick.

there were many 3rd round trades though most involved lower 3rd round picks - so it is a matter of working out compensation for 2018 picks. this is the only case of a 2018 pick i could find.
Saints stockpile RBs after trade with 49ers

Saints receive:
» 2017 third-round pick (No. 67): Alvin Kamara, RB, Tennessee

49ers receive:
» 2017 seventh-round pick (No. 229): Adrian Colbert, DB, Miami
» 2018 second-round pick

For team's in a win-now mode, Free Agency would be the way to go. The Cowboys aren't that team...at least they aren't now that they have what they believe to be their quarterback of the future. The window is just now opening for them and will likely be open for the next 5 years. Team's in win-now mode typically have other extenuating circumstances at work, which typically includes a franchise quarterback nearing retirement. Like I said, that's not the Cowboys. That is, however, the Saints, with Drew Brees likely calling it quits soon. The Cowboys would have to look at that through a completely different set of eyes that ask's the question, "were I given the opportunity, would I use both a 2nd and 7th round pick simultaneously to draft this player?" Again, I think that probably is true for the Saints, they need to do something quick if they want to make a serious run before Brees rides off into the sunset.

 

[waldoputty]

For team's in a win-now mode, Free Agency would be the way to go. The Cowboys aren't that team...at least they aren't now that they have what they believe to be their quarterback of the future. The window is just now opening for them and will likely be open for the next 5 years. Team's in win-now mode typically have other extenuating circumstances at work, which typically includes a franchise quarterback nearing retirement. Like I said, that's not the Cowboys. That is, however, the Saints, with Drew Brees likely calling it quit soon. The Cowboys would have to look at that through a completely different set of eyes that ask's the question, "were I given the opportunity, would I use both a 2nd and 7th round pick simultaneously to draft this player?" Again, I think that probably is true for the Saints, they need to do something quick if they want to make a serious run before Brees rides off into the sunset.

well if taco does not work out, then we are talking about jeopardizing 2 years out of your 5 year window.
1 year to find out.
1 year to draft someone else.
all while there is tens of millions in cap space not allocated (after accounting for martin and collins)

 

[jday]

well if taco does not work out, then we are talking about jeopardizing 2 years out of your 5 year window.
1 year to find out.
1 year to draft someone else.
all while there is tens of millions in cap space not allocated (after accounting for martin and collins)

For debates such as these, you seriously have to imagine you are the FO. They have done their homework on Taco. They believe in Taco and his potential. If you were the FO, who made that draft pick, would you seriously draft another one just for the reason that there's a possibility he doesn't work out. Now apply that same formula to every time you are drafting for a position of need. That would mean, going forward, your gameplan is always to draft two of every position of need. We aren't trying to fill an ark here to sustain life on earth. We are trying to a build a team with the best players are coaches and scouts agree on. There simply isn't enough draft rounds to do that, and simultaneously second guess every position you draft, by drafting another from that same position.

 

[waldoputty]

For debates such as these, you seriously have to imagine you are the FO. They have done their homework on Taco. They believe in Taco and his potential. If you were the FO, who made that draft pick, would you seriously draft another one just for the reason that there's a possibility he doesn't work out. Now apply that same formula to every time you are drafting for a position of need. That would mean, going forward, your gameplan is always to draft two of every position of need. We aren't trying to fill an ark here to sustain life on earth. We are trying to a build a team with the best players are coaches and scouts agree on. There simply isn't enough draft rounds to do that, and simultaneously second guess every position you draft, by drafting another from that same position.

If I am the front office, I have enough humility to realize that I am not perfect and not that much a better drafter than anyone else.
Historical drafting statistics indicate that hitting on a DL with a 1st round pick is less than 50%. You may even remember that stat which I often list - it is based on many years and thousands of players.
Furthermore, if you are going to be consistent, then you dont need all those picks next year to replace the departing players. It is a simple numbers game. That is even without the recent 3-4 cheap FAs per year that the Cowboys have been partaking in.

 

[jday]

If I am the front office, I have enough humility to realize that I am not perfect and not that much a better drafter than anyone else.
Historical drafting statistics indicate that hitting on a DL with a 1st round pick is less than 50%. You may even remember that stat which I often list - it is based on many years and thousands of players.
Furthermore, if you are going to be consistent, then you dont need all those picks next year to replace the departing players. It is a simple numbers game. That is even without the recent 3-4 cheap FAs per year that the Cowboys have been partaking in.

That sounds like a fair stat. But doesn't that stat become more alarming the further away you get from the first round? So let's go back to your suggestion. Let's use a draft pick on a player that has a 50% chance of being a good pick and then use a second valuable pick for the same position and even less of a chance to hit? Doesn't make good business sense to me.

 

[iceberg]

we can agree or disagree on taco being spicy taco or soft taco.
however, i would have felt a lot better if we took another DE in the 2nd instead of the DB.
e.g. willis, rivers, basham were all available.

i know they were short on DBs.
but adding a DE with more speed and agility would sure be nice.

we've got a mini-refugee camp right now on the DL and likely to bring in more camp bodies. we lost (4) starters in the secondary.

do the math. they did an outstanding job on the draft.

 

[waldoputty]

That sounds like a fair stat. But doesn't that stat become more alarming the further away you get from the first round? So let's go back to your suggestion. Let's use a draft pick on a player that has a 50% chance of being a good pick and then use a second valuable pick for the same position and even less of a chance to hit? Doesn't make good business sense to me.

Thanks.
I was wrong with the exactly value - it is 58% for a 1st round pick for the DL.

You are probably aware that you can basically add the 2 stats together.
So a 1st round and a 2nd round come out to 85% that you get a multiyear starter out of the 2 picks.
Let's say we are better drafter by a bit, so it is 100%.
However, that does not mean a rookie starter, nevermind a rookie star.
That is why the time pressure.
It may be 1 year or more to find out if you hit on the player.
Zeke and Dez's clocks are ticking, as is your 5 year window.

In terms of a stats detail, some has said the 2 stats are not independent. That is if one starts, then the other does not (generally). However, the point is talent acquisition rather than who starts.

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)
2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)
3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)
4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)
5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)
6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)
7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Loved our draft. This second guessing all based on your idea that they should have overpayed in free agency at cb is being tired.

 

[waldoputty]

we've got a mini-refugee camp right now on the DL and likely to bring in more camp bodies. we lost (4) starters in the secondary.

do the math. they did an outstanding job on the draft.

I regard this as triage.
To win a championship, I dont think you can without pressure.
You have 3 sort-of starters in the backfield, along with Heath and Frazier from last year - that is 5 players.
Are the players we drafted better?
Quite possibly.
However, I like to see them cover if Rodgers has 10 seconds to pass while he is puffing his victory cigar on a lawn chair in the backfield.

Tactically, they did an outstanding job in the draft.
I just question their strategy.

 

[waldoputty]

Loved our draft. This second guessing all based on your idea that they should have overpayed in free agency at cb is being tired.

Sure I liked Bouye and the other top FAs.
But we did not get them.

So if we have to depend on the draft, it is triage between the DL and the DBs.
IMO, DL is more important.

 

[iceberg]

I regard this as triage.
To win a championship, I dont think you can without pressure.
You have 3 sort-of starters in the backfield, along with Heath and Frazier from last year - that is 5 players.
Are the players we drafted better?
Quite possibly.
However, I like to see them cover if Rodgers has 10 seconds to pass while he is puffing his victory cigar on a lawn chair in the backfield.

Tactically, they did an outstanding job in the draft.
I just question their strategy.

oh i won't argue too much. a good pass rush will help any secondary. they did stack the secondary and seem more content on the DL tweaks. with potentially shopping scandrick it's almost as if they wanted to revamp the entire secondary, so they did.