A Little Formation To Get You Excited

[Hostile]

hey Hos, can you make a thread like this for the defense? it sure beats the usual Romo is a choker/jessica/hollywood threads and the million different articles on when Ware will get an extension.

If you give me an idea about what kind of formations you want to look at I sure could. I might ask scottsp, adbutcher, DallasCowpoke and jterrell for some assistance because all of them played on that side of the ball and probably know the terminology and attacks better than I do. I certainly respect their input on Defense a lot.

 

[RainMan]

Because this is a run oriented Offense and Owens would have never been good with that. Get over the fact that he is gone. Time isn't going to go backwards and he won't be back.

The idea is to become Romo friendly. This accomplishes that easily by giving him mismatches to exploit and it potentially makes the middle of the field a gold mine for Witten.

A few random thoughts....

I agree with the Owens analysis. T.O. undoubtedly makes this a more potent play on paper, but I think his personality prohibited us from "spreading it around" as much as we could have. I don't buy into all the negative T.O. stuff, but you can't deny he wanted the ball and wanted it often, and our play calling often reflected that -- to the detriment of the offense.

As for the play itself, it absolutely creates a mismatch, but I would think its potential effectiveness would first need to be established in our ability to run out of the formation -- either with Felix in the backfield or with him spread out wide. We might be becoming a run-based team, but has our offensive line ever really shown it's a great run-blocking front? Would it be unheard of to see Barber run out of the formation you drew up (with Felix split out wide) for a 2-yard gain? And we don't really know how effective or ineffective a Felix-Barber backfield would be.

That, and the fact we've never really seen Felix utilized (read: excel) as a slot receiver, is about the only thing keeping me from getting too geeked over the formation.

Yes, it has a ton of possibilities. The only thing missing is our players showing their skill sets can maximize the formation.

 

[Hostile]

You must live in a perfect world.

Not possible. You're in it.

:wink2:

I'm just a realist who understands the game. Nothing really amazing about that.

 

[DaBoys4Life]

Let me bottom line this for you. Owens is gone and has no one to blame but himself. He told Offensive coaches he did not respect them. He went after his QB. He totally alienated the backup QB. Whether Johnson sucked or not is irrelevant. His submarine act sunk himself.

We have been a passing Offense to appease him. We now have a RB trio who make this a different type of Offense. We will still pass effectively without Owens, but now we can do more with run variations. That's all this is.

I honestly don't care if you never grasp the fact that I actually understand the game.

**** I wouldn't respect Garrett with those bull**** *** plays he was calling either. The back up QB is a big reason why we didn't make the play offs. He couldn't make all the throws there was no reason for him to be our back up. I know Owens is gone and it will hurt us. But forgive me for not sucking off some formation that your drooling over when Garrett is supposed to do more with less and we didn't even see an inkling of anything like this last season.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

Every play is based on the OL winning their assignments. Not just this play. Every single one of them is about that. Plays are never drawn up thinking about which OL is going to fail. Never have been. Never will be.

I'm pretty sure OCs realize that sometimes a double team is necessary and draw up plays accordingly.

 

[Hostile]

A few random thoughts....

I agree with the Owens analysis. T.O. undoubtedly makes this a more potent play on paper, but I think his personality prohibited us from "spreading it around" as much as we could have. I don't buy into all the negative T.O. stuff, but you can't deny he wanted the ball and wanted it often, and our play calling often reflected that -- to the detriment of the offense.

You said the magic words. Spread the ball around. Look for it in 2009. I absolutely expect that to happen.

As for the play itself, it absolutely creates a mismatch, but I would think its potential effectiveness would first need to be established in our ability to run out of the formation -- either with Felix in the backfield or with him spread out wide. We might be becoming a run-based team, but has our offensive line ever really shown it's a great run-blocking front? Would it be unheard of to see Barber run out of the formation you drew up (with Felix split out wide) for a 2-yard gain? And we don't really know how effective or ineffective a Felix-Barber backfield would be.

Great questions. First of all I feel a whole lot more confident in the run blocking with Kosier over Proctor. I think that is a given. I even feel better with Holland over Proctor. Last year I was deeply disappointed in Hudson Houck. I will not lie. It makes my hope for Mike Solari all that more painful that we passed on him. This is just my opinion but his time spent with Chan Gailey is right up the alley on this type of run blocking.

Every play is going to be stopped. This one is not any different. What you hope to gain from any formation is mismatches to exploit. I think this gives us several that we could gain. Using this type of formation absolutely means several things.

1. We don't keep a Fullback or we rarely use him. Saddens me to say this, but with keeping 3 QBs and 2 Kickers you have to trim somewhere else. To me this means a way to utilize our 3 RBs more. That is the appeal to me. I personally like this formation with Choice better than Barber, but it makes more sense to use Barber, expecially if teams switch to a Nickel.

2. You run to set up the pass.

3. WRs become more timing route oriented and are probably in slants and quick hit routes more. I personally like that aspect of this. I love the deep ball as much as anyone, but I prefer to move the chains with regularity. Slow, steady, grind it out, and when it presents itself, strike big.

4. The TE is constantly in a mismatch. When you have the best TE in the NFL it just makes sense to put him at your best advantage. He is also our most Romo Friendly option due to their chemistry.

That, and the fact we've never really seen Felix utilized (read: excel) as a slot receiver, is about the only thing keeping me from getting too geeked over the formation.

Yes, it has a ton of possibilities. The only thing missing is our players showing their skill sets can maximize the formation.

No one had ever seen Marshall Faulk utilized that way either until the Rams did it. I like one other aspect of this a lot. Barber against 6 and 7 man fronts. I love this. Put Barber in the slot. Now Felix is facing 6 and 7 man fronts. I love that too.

 

[Hostile]

I'm pretty sure OCs realize that sometimes a double team is necessary and draw up plays accordingly.

Oh absolutely. You know who was outstanding at it? You're going to hate me. Al Saunders. I was really shocked he had such a rough time in DC. Excellent football coach who unfortunately did not have the same success in Washington he had under Vermeil. I think this is partly because of Vermeil's complete trust in him and Gibbs needing to have a firm grip. Do not interpret that as disrespect for Gibbs or blame.

 

[Rampage]

If you give me an idea about what kind of formations you want to look at I sure could. I might ask scottsp, adbutcher, DallasCowpoke and jterrell for some assistance because all of them played on that side of the ball and probably know the terminology and attacks better than I do. I certainly respect their input on Defense a lot.

well the 1st formation I thought of was our 3-3-5 Nickel package. I was also wondering who will replace Ellis in the "Cowboy package". I would suggest matching it up with a Giants 3 wr package if you guys feel like it. It just seems like it's been a while since an actual football discussion has taken place here with the offseason and what not.

 

[Everlastingxxx]

Because this is a run oriented Offense and Owens would have never been good with that. Get over the fact that he is gone. Time isn't going to go backwards and he won't be back.

I wasnt trying to promote TO.

 

[Hostile]

well the 1st formation I thought of was our 3-3-5 Nickel package. I was also wondering who will replace Ellis in the "Cowboy package". I would suggest matching it up with a Giants 3 wr package if you guys feel like it. It just seems like it's been a while since an actual football discussion has taken place here with the offseason and what not.

Let me draw it up tonight and I will try and post it tomorrow.

I was hoping this would be a football only topic. I have missed that. Camp can't get here soon enough to suit me.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

Oh absolutely. You know who was outstanding at it? You're going to hate me. Al Saunders. I was really shocked he had such a rough time in DC. Excellent football coach who unfortunately did not have the same success in Washington he had under Vermeil. I think this is partly because of Vermeil's complete trust in him and Gibbs needing to have a firm grip. Do not interpret that as disrespect for Gibbs or blame.

I agree that Gibbs never fully trusted him. I think that the personnel just wasn't right for Saunders because Gibbs believed in the run and wasn't willing to commit to the pass by getting players who would fit better in Saunders attack.

 

[Hostile]

I wasnt trying to promote TO.

Then why bring him up as if him being here makes this team better. He had 3 years to prove himself and he failed. The team moved on.

 

[Everlastingxxx]

Then why bring him up as if him being here makes this team better. He had 3 years to prove himself and he failed. The team moved on.

My point was...we have all these same players last season +plus Owens. Defenses respected his deep threat and played accordingly. You may not want to believe that but it is a fact. He would take 2 defenders with him. Am i saying this team cant be just as good without him? No! I think we will be better but for different reasons.

So now we are going into a new season and BAM, these plays will work? What happened in the Skins/Arizona games? I mean i heard all last preseason about all these mismatches...i dont think i saw it. I saw F Jones speed at work, but nothing special about the plays.

Draw up whatever you want, i would do what teams did last season to beat us...Blitz the hell out of Romo.

 

[dogunwo]

Jones going in motion from the backfield to the slot is what makes this such a mismatch. If you yank a back and put a slot receiver in instead, the other team is just going to go to its nickel defense more than likely. No more mismatch.

You sir, have some decent football sense.

 

[Hostile]

I agree that Gibbs never fully trusted him. I think that the personnel just wasn't right for Saunders because Gibbs believed in the run and wasn't willing to commit to the pass by getting players who would fit better in Saunders attack.

You know, sometimes guys just do not fit together. Another example to me is Gregg Williams. He is a great D Coach IMO. Blache fits better for this personnel. I don't think there is any doubt.

Gibbs was old school, Saunders is new age. Two great minds who didn't get great results together. Give Gibbs a Scott Linehan and I think he would have had better success. Put Saunders in Detroit and I think he could have too.

Chemistry really is an issue with coaches just like players.

 

[RainMan]

My point was...we have all these same players last season +plus Owens. Defenses respected his deep threat and played accordingly. You may not want to believe that but it is a fact. He would take 2 defenders with him. Am i saying this team cant be just as good without him? No! I think we will be better but for different reasons.

So now we are going into a new season and BAM, these plays will work? What happened in the Skins/Arizona games? I mean i heard all last preseason about all these mismatches...i dont think i saw it. I saw F Jones speed at work, but nothing special about the plays.

Draw up whatever you want, i would do what teams did last season to beat us...Blitz the hell out of Romo.

Far be it from me to inject some optimism (I'm highly skeptical post 2007 lol)...but a few thoughts to counter your points:

1) Owens wasn't getting it done last season like he had in years past. It's well known he wasn't getting off the ball well, and teams were singling him up more than ever. From what I recall, the myth that he "always" got safety help was dispelled last season.

2) Williams was a complete non-factor; worse than at any other point of his professional career. It's not as if we ever really used him as part of a strategical plan after that midseason trade. He may never be T.O.'s equal, but I'd be absolutely floored if he isn't three times the player he was last season -- and that's if his only development is just getting used to the team.

3) Most importantly, Felix wasn't available (injured) to make this formation possible. I think Hos would agree that without him, the formation flies out the window. And the few games he was healthy for, Garrett showed very little imagination and was quite clearly working him into things.

4) Lastly, Bennett, like Felix, was a rookie and had to adjust to a lot. There aren't a ton of rookies that bust through the door and have plays designed for them from Day 1.

 

[Hostile]

My point was...we have all these same players last season +plus Owens. Defenses respected his deep threat and played accordingly. You may not want to believe that but it is a fact. He would take 2 defenders with him. Am i saying this team cant be just as good without him? No! I think we will be better but for different reasons.

So now we are going into a new season and BAM, these plays will work? What happened in the Skins/Arizona games? I mean i heard all last preseason about all these mismatches...i dont think i saw it. I saw F Jones speed at work, but nothing special about the plays.

Draw up whatever you want, i would do what teams did last season to beat us...Blitz the hell out of Romo.

They blitzed last year because the OL was beat up and so was he.

Believe whatever you want about last year. It was an aberration, not the norm for a team with these weapons.

Owens was in the way.

 

[Zaxor]

LOL:laugh2: 2 days ago I use that very formation to explain to my son the possibilities this year

 

[Hostile]

LOL:laugh2: 2 days ago I use that very formation to explain to my son the possibilities this year

How did he like it?

 

[Everlastingxxx]

Far be it from me to inject some optimism (I'm highly skeptical post 2007 lol)...but a few thoughts to counter your points:

1) Owens wasn't getting it done last season like he had in years past. It's well known he wasn't getting off the ball well, and teams were singling him up more than ever. From what I recall, the myth that he "always" got safety help was dispelled last season.

2) Williams was a complete non-factor; worse than at any other point of his professional career. It's not as if we ever really used him as part of a strategical plan after that midseason trade. He may never be T.O.'s equal, but I'd be absolutely floored if he isn't three times the player he was last season -- and that's if his only development is just getting used to the team.

3) Most importantly, Felix wasn't available (injured) to make this formation possible. I think Hos would agree that without him, the formation flies out the window. And the few games he was healthy for, Garrett showed very little imagination and was quite clearly working him into things.

4) Lastly, Bennett, like Felix, was a rookie and had to adjust to a lot. There aren't a ton of rookies that bust through the door and have plays designed for them from Day 1.

Didnt realise i was being negative. I have high hopes for the offense this season. I agree Owens talents were on a decline but no doubt he took two guys out of the defense. I only saw one game in person, it was the Ravens game. I saw the safety high on his side the whole game. Roy had a corner, that was it, nobody behind him.

Now Felix was in the first Washington game and had no touches. Also did little in the Arizona game. Where were the mismatches?

But i agree, another year...lets see what happens.