A thought for you Jerry bashers...

[zrinkill]

so if these great people are such a slam dunk, how many superbowls did johnson get in miami? i mean, it was him, right?

He always ignores that question .... but he sure likes to point out the troubles Jerry had without Jimmy.

Bach's agenda will not allow him to see it.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

Neither one did any thing with out the other. When the talent pool left by Jimmy dried up Jones seem to be a fool, for years. What more needs to be said about his GMing as far as that goes?

Being the CEO/owner are Jones strengths. If we had to rely on Jones to make all the player moves by himself, don't even want to think about it. Hopefully that is history for ever.

 

[Bach]

He always ignores that question .... but he sure likes to point out the troubles Jerry had without Jimmy.

Bach's agenda will not allow him to see it.

So if he didn't win a SB in Miami, then that means he wasn't largely responsible for the ones in Dallas? That's flawed logic.

 

[Bach]

Bach, you are so hilarious.

I apologize to everyone for unintentionally luring Bach into this thread, and getting him going. Please don't burn me at the stake.

That's right. It's all dogunwo's fault :laugh2:

 

[BigDFan5]

Let's see. For not having much say in personnel, Johnson really went to a lot of trouble researching and putting this chart together for Jerry so Jerry could make all those blockbuster deals and picks. :laugh2:

Show one post where anyone said Jimmy had no say or even little say in the draft or FA

making things up makes you look stupid

 

[BigDFan5]

.....

Flava Flav says do you know what time it is?

been over 13 hours I am freaking out awaiting your reply :laugh2:

 

[zrinkill]

Flava Flav says do you know what time it is?

been over 13 hours I am freaking out awaiting your reply :laugh2:

 

[zrinkill]

So if he didn't win a SB in Miami, then that means he wasn't largely responsible for the ones in Dallas? That's flawed logic.

Same thing could be said about Jerry's troubles after Jimmy left .... how can you not see how silly you are being?

 

[Dodger12]

Sorry for going to work, maybe next time I can call in sick :laugh2:

Holly smokes.....you don't read the Zone at work?

The premise of the article is not something that I completely disagree with, "Ten years ago today, Jerry Jones bought one of the most storied franchises in sports -- the Dallas Cowboys. TSN's Dan Pompei analyzes what Jones has meant to the Cowboys and the league."

I stated earlier:

Jimmy handled personnel and Jerry signed the checks and handled the business end of marketing the Cowboys in a way that reinvented the NFL. Jerry is responsible for making more money for the owners than they could have ever dreamed. It was a combination that worked and saved this franchise.

I don't disagree with Pompei who was writing an article about Jerry Jones. Notice how he didn't mention Jimmy with regards to any of the draft picks? It's either because he believes that Jimmy had nothing to do with them or he was writing an opinion article about Jerry and Jerry's Cowboys. Pompei also gave Jerry a plug for hiring Gailey (who Jerry fired two years later), who, at the time the article was written (February, 1999), was coming off a 10 and 6 season as Division Champs, rebounding from 6 and 10 the year before with Switzer, we still had Troy/Irvin/Smith and no one had any idea of the depths we’d be sinking. Some of Jerry’s finest work was still ahead of him.

The best move he made was hiring Jimmy Johnson. Some of his other good moves were the Herschel Walker trade, dealing Steve Walsh to the Saints for first- and third-round picks, drafting Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith and Larry Allen, trading for Charles Haley, signing Deion Sanders away from the rival 49ers and hiring Chan Gailey.

O.K., I’ll play……

Jones hasn't been perfect, mind you. He may be a little too involved with running the Cowboys. Their personnel staff could be better with a couple more experienced men whose last names aren't Jones. Maybe there was something else Jones could have done to keep Johnson happy. He seemed to have underestimated Johnson's importance to his team. Even though the Cowboys won a Super Bowl with Barry Switzer, hiring him was a mistake.

But wait, Pompei just said that Jones made all those outstanding personnel moves. Now he’s saying that Jerry’s not perfect and he could have a better personnel staff and he underestimated Johnson’s importance to the Cowboys. What? I wonder why? Any GM that made all those deals up until the end of 1998 should be considered a genius and near perfect. How do you plug a guy for all those homeruns and then question his hands on approach and personnel staff. Interesting.

Then Pompei gave us this little tidbit at the end of the article:

“His greatest challenge is ahead of him in the next few years -- making the transition from the Aikman-Smith Cowboys to the next generation. Rebuilding the Cowboys won't be easy, as they are sure to have major salary cap problems. But if anyone can do it, Jones can.

I wonder if Pompei would retract this article if he could, as it’s not one of his finest journalistic pieces. But in your world, you’re hanging to it like a bible on a death bed.

Jimmy knew college players and had contacts with college coaches at the time to inquire about players from his coaching days. Jimmy drafted according to his vision of what type of player(s) would fit into his system. Jimmy and Jerry were both quoted in the article(s) I posted. Johnson was quoted about a conversation with Al Davis in which he negotiated a trade with the Raiders. Either Jerry made that call and Jimmy is lying and lived to coach the Cowboys another 3 years after dissing his boss or that's what actually happened. Jimmy was quoted about attending Troy's workout and then calling Jones who then sat down and negotiated the contract and signed the check. If Jerry the GM was a great talent evaluator and major personnel voice in 1989, then you'd think he'd attend the workout of the guy they're going to draft #1 overall; the very future of the franchise and his millions depends on it. Or is it because Jerry delegated personnel matters to his good friend and successful football coach? Jimmy was quoted that Jerry didn't offer too much advice. I can accept that this was made in some jest, as you don't sit in the draft room as an owner and not have some input. But Johnson came out of coaching in the NCAA where he coached and saw some of these college players at the all-star games and Jerry came from speculating and drilling oil wells; who was the football guy and talent evaluator? In the additional links attached to the article you posted, Jimmy was mentioned as a talent evaluator and in reference to the 1991 draft, it stated "Although this was a Jerry & Jimmy production, Jones was the one signing the checks," and he was. And it WAS a Jimmy and Jerry production. But I'll bet that the guy evaluating and drafting the talent was the man who just came out of the college game, recruited football players for a living, coached a national championship team and attended player workouts.

Sometimes I think that you guys work for Jerry Jones and are paid to surf these sites defending against any and all perceived slights. I wouldn't blame you if that was the case. Zrin stated that it's always the same posters who hammer Jerry, the converse is also true, that it 's also the same posters who defend his every move without question and attack other posters for different opinions on a message board. You guys get yourself worked up into a pack mentality and it’s always the same garbage: Bear calling people stupid, liars, morons, idiots; Ice jumping on the Bear bandwagon; Chocolate Lab making trying to make his point with civility; and Zrin cheering from the sideline like the CZ mascot, calling everyone trolls, and then sharing with us the same post he’s given to us a hundred times before; you know, the one where he keeps score. Yes, great idea, start a post calling out other posters, crow about Jerry and then complain when people post their opinions. Good idea.

Hear, hear... I figured my little diatribe would bring the Jerry haters out of the woodwork, I'm pleased to find that instead it seems to have smoked out the Jerry supporters...

Was there ever any doubt that your thread would bring out both sides of the Jones spectrum? You have waited a long time to view it as a validation for your struggles to defend the man that no one hates as an owner and evolving GM who has gotten his share of credit when things are good and his share of criticism where he’s failed as a GM. If anyone says a word, they hate Jerry in your world and anything to the contrary is just a lie. I’ll bet most of us are ecstatic that we’re 13 and 3 but forgive me for not crowing with you when we haven’t won a playoff game in 10 years, we’re at a crossroads for the franchise, we’re losing personnel evaluators (that we’re not replacing) and coaching staff, and all the while preparing for a playoff game.

What I find funny is that I started this thread to discuss Jerry's RECENT moves as a GM, particularly the moves he made last offseason that got him so heavily criticized in here, and Jerry's critics turned it into a Jimmy versus Jerry thread...

Guess they don't want to have to face up to how profoundly stupid they were for rippin' on Jerry last offseason... guess they don't want to admit that he did a really, really good job last winter and spring...

No you didn’t. You addressed the thread to “Jerry bashers” and then brought up topics that were discussed at length and beaten to death. One of your pack calls out a poster who wasn’t even in the conversation/thread and then bash him when he shows up with his opinion which you fools solicited and enticed to begin with.

You won’t change my mind and I won’t change yours, but that still didn’t stop me from wasting half my work day for this lunacy.:bang2:

 

[Bach]

Same thing could be said about Jerry's troubles after Jimmy left .... how can you not see how silly you are being?

Let's see, Jimmy never had a losing record in Miami, whereas Jerry as chief decision maker led us to three consecutive 5-11 seasons.

But hey, if want to believe that Jerry is a great GM and largely responsible for our SB's, then have it.

 

[BigDFan5]

Holly smokes.....you don't read the Zone at work?

So you ask for an article which I provide and then you decide it isnt good enough?


What was that your buddy Bach said "facts be damned"


Maybe its like all of us have been saying it was a partnership between both guys. Why is that so hard to accept?

 

[Dave_in-NC]

:clubbed:

 

[Bach]

Maybe its like all of us have been saying it was a partnership between both guys. Why is that so hard to accept?

Did you happen to miss the drafts between '94 - '02?

 

[iceberg]

So you ask for an article which I provide and then you decide it isnt good enough?

What was that your buddy Bach said "facts be damned"

Maybe its like all of us have been saying it was a partnership between both guys. Why is that so hard to accept?

this is why i rarely post article to prove a point. those who do love their articles and it's great. counter articles - the writer is an idiot, the site is too liberal/conservative/whatever - it won't matter.

bach just hates jones and that's all there is to it. in a "what have you done for me lately world" we still go back 10 years on jones and ignore the accomplishments of the last few years.

amazing to me.

 

[BigDFan5]

Did you happen to miss the drafts between '94 - '02?

You mean you give Only Jimmy credit for good drafts and Jerry credit for bad drafts? Had nothing to do with our scouts many of who we lost when Jimmy left? Wonder if losing scouts hurts a draft?



No doubt in those drafts Jerry made a huge mistake trading down and drafting backups instead of picking up guys who could push starters, along with trading two 1's for Galloway. This does not mean he had nothing to do with early successes when he was teamed with Jimmy.


Looking at draft history here Jimmy didnt hit every pick either, weird

 

[Doomsday101]

This past draft saw us get Spencer, Deon Anderson and a pro bowl kicker in Folk. We also walked out with an extra 1st rd pick for this upcoming draft. As for the rest of the draft it is hard to say who will emerge. We went out and got Davis and Hamlin. This was all done without BP being here.

 

[Dodger12]

So you ask for an article which I provide and then you decide it isnt good enough?

this is why i rarely post article to prove a point. those who do love their articles and it's great. counter articles - the writer is an idiot, the site is too liberal/conservative/whatever - it won't matter.

Some articles are usually the writers opinion(s) and we can take those opinions with a grain of salt. But I've referenced articles, written at the time (89 and 90) by the major Dallas paper charged with covering the Cowboys. In those articles, both Jerry and Jimmy were interviewed and quoted. Those are their words into their direction and mind set not mine and it leaves little room for interpretation. If you can't believe their own words then I can't help you.

 

[Bach]

You mean you give Only Jimmy credit for good drafts and Jerry credit for bad drafts?

You do realize don't you, that Jimmy wasn't here after '93? Right? So no, he wouldn't get any credit for our drafts from 94-02. But he would get credit for the Dolphins drafts when he was there, and those were certainly much better than ours during that same time.

No doubt in those drafts Jerry made a huge mistake trading down and drafting backups instead of picking up guys who could push starters, along with trading two 1's for Galloway. This does not mean he had nothing to do with early successes when he was teamed with Jimmy.

How many times do I have to say I don't think Jimmy was 100% responsible for our success? Do you even read the posts?

Looking at draft history here Jimmy didnt hit every pick either, weird

And who in the history of the league ever did hit on every pick? Your extremism is beyond comical.

I don't think Jimmy was 100% responsible
I don't think Jimmy hit on every pick.
I don't think Jerry had 0% to do with our success.
I don't think after Jimmy left Jerry missed on every pick.

Comprehende?

 

[zrinkill]

Let's see, Jimmy never had a losing record in Miami, whereas Jerry as chief decision maker led us to three consecutive 5-11 seasons.

Jimmy was head honcho of the Fins from 96-99 his record was 36-28 - with 3 playoff appearances.

Jerry as head honcho of the Boys from 96 - 99 had a record of 34-30 - with 3 playoff appearances.

We will never know if Jimmy would have had a losing season after 10 years since he quite after 4 at both jobs.

 

[BigDFan5]

Some articles are usually the writers opinion(s) and we can take those opinions with a grain of salt. But I've referenced articles, written at the time (89 and 90) by the major Dallas paper charged with covering the Cowboys. In those articles, both Jerry and Jimmy were interviewed and quoted. Those are their words into their direction and mind set not mine and it leaves little room for interpretation. If you can't believe their own words then I can't help you.

Their own words did not say what control either of them had. Like any article the writer interprets what he believes which is wy any article can not usually be used as absolute proof.

You keep pointing to Jimmy talking to Al Davis during a trade as a sign of proof of your position, yet I have an article where it was Jerry talking to Minny about the Walker trade.


Point is you are stuck on the mindset that Jimmy was a one man show and Jerry was the guy along for the ride, the rest of us do not believe that. It was a 2 man show.