A thought for you Jerry bashers...

[BigDFan5]

You do realize don't you, that Jimmy wasn't here after '93? Right? So no, he wouldn't get any credit for our drafts from 94-02. But he would get credit for the Dolphins drafts when he was there, and those were certainly much better than ours during that same time.

Sorry I thought you were bright enough to know I was talking about drafts starting in 1989 where you would give all credit to Jimmy I should not have assumed you could catch on, my bad

How many times do I have to say I don't think Jimmy was 100% responsible for our success? Do you even read the posts?

Yes I read the posts I have read many of your posts and not until just recent did you say 70/30. If that is what you believe why are you still arguing?

And who in the history of the league ever did hit on every pick? Your extremism is beyond comical.

Never said anyone did

 

[Bach]

Jimmy was head honcho of the Fins from 96-99 his record was 36-28 - with 3 playoff appearances.

Jerry as head honcho of the Boys from 96 - 98 had a record of 34-30 - with 3 playoff appearances.

We will never know if Jimmy would have had a losing season after 10 years since he quite after 4 at both jobs.

You do realize that we had just won 3 Super Bowls in four years from 92-95 don't you?

That means from 96 - 98 we should've had a solid team with experienced players. Yet Jimmy took a worse team in Miami and ended up with a better overall record during that time span.

Also, we went 6-10 in 1997, so how could we have 3 playoff appearance from 96-98?

 

[Bach]

Yes I read the posts I have read many of your posts and not until just recent did you say 70/30. If that is what you believe why are you still arguing?

Because you keep posting ridiculous silliness about me giving Jimmy all the credit, when that isn't true.

Do I think he's largely responsible for our success in those days? Yes.
100% responsible? No

 

[iceberg]

Some articles are usually the writers opinion(s) and we can take those opinions with a grain of salt. But I've referenced articles, written at the time (89 and 90) by the major Dallas paper charged with covering the Cowboys. In those articles, both Jerry and Jimmy were interviewed and quoted. Those are their words into their direction and mind set not mine and it leaves little room for interpretation. If you can't believe their own words then I can't help you.

well if you can't understand mine i can't help you either.

all i said was i don't play article tag and you've seen why. bach demanded one, got it, and shot it down. lot of good it did to bring it up, huh? all i'm saying.

 

[zrinkill]

You do realize that we had just won 3 Super Bowls in four years from 92-95 don't you?

That means from 96 - 98 we should've had a solid team with experienced players. Yet Jimmy took a worse team in Miami and ended up with a better overall record during that time span.

Also, we went 6-10 in 1997, so how could we have 3 playoff appearance from 96-98?

I mistyped ...it was supposed to be 96-99 just like Jimmy's time ..... looking at the wins/loses total should have clued you in on that.

As far as having a better team ..... we were an aging team with burgeoning salary cap problems and of course the mess with Michael Irvin.

The Fins had a pretty good team as well in the early 90's with the Bills keeping them out of at least 3 Superbowls imo. They also had better draft picks and salary cap situation (which is why Jimmy decided to go)

But keep making excuses man ...... the fact remains that they needed each other and neither was as effective apart.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

One thing that fails to get mentioned is Jerry is the one who hired BP, Garrett and Ireland these guys did not hire themselves. For a stupid man who has no football sense I would say Jerry did damn good and if he is forced to replace these coaches he will. One thing I have noticed from day 1 with Jones those that hate him will never credit him for anything. All things good are someone else and any mistakes falls on Jerry.

I don't really know anyone who hates Jerry Jones or fails to give him credit. Even back in the late 90's, people were crediting Jones. The issue back then was "Who deserves more credit: Jerry or Jimmy" but it was never "Jerry deserves no credit"

I think Jerry has done an amazing job. He recognized his weakness of getting too involved personally and hired Parcells and relied on others to make decisions. His decision to hire Garrett was brilliant and he took a lot of heat for that last year. Even his decision to hire Wade Phillips didn't sit well with guys like me because I thought he was a coaching retread. It turned out that Phillips had the right demeanor to deal with these veterans and manage them well. Jerry deserves a lot of credit.

What amazes me are the Parcells backers. You still have Parcells fans who can't admit Bellichek was primarily the one responsible for his success despite the sweatshirted genius winning 16 games this year and likely a 4th Superbowl and losing both Weiss and Crennel as assistants.

 

[Doomsday101]

I don't really know anyone who hates Jerry Jones or fails to give him credit. Even back in the late 90's, people were crediting Jones. The issue back then was "Who deserves more credit: Jerry or Jimmy" but it was never "Jerry deserves no credit"

I think Jerry has done an amazing job. He recognized his weakness of getting too involved personally and hired Parcells and relied on others to make decisions. His decision to hire Garrett was brilliant and he took a lot of heat for that last year. Even his decision to hire Wade Phillips didn't sit well with guys like me because I thought he was a coaching retread. It turned out that Phillips had the right demeanor to deal with these veterans and manage them well. Jerry deserves a lot of credit.

What amazes me are the Parcells backers. You still have Parcells fans who can't admit Bellichek was primarily the one responsible for his success despite the sweatshirted genius winning 16 games this year and likely a 4th Superbowl and losing both Weiss and Crennel as assistants.

For me I don't have issue giving credit to Jimmy, BP or Ireland as well as others because I believe for any franchise that has success many people play a role in that success. There is no doubt Jerry Jones has the final say even when BP was here it was said many times in interviews and articles that Jerry, Ireland and BP would sit down and debate the prospect and sometime the debates would be heated but everyone put their 2 cents in and Jerry would make the final call.

 

[BigDFan5]

Because you keep posting ridiculous silliness about me giving Jimmy all the credit, when that isn't true.

Since you said 70/30 can you show me a post where I said you specifically are giving Jimmy all the credit?


Although in this very thread you did claim Jimmy was doing all the personnel moves and Jerry only handled getting the team in financial shape. You quickly changed that to 70/30 though :laugh1:

 

[Bach]

Since you said 70/30 can you show me a post where I said you specifically are giving Jimmy all the credit?
Although in this very thread you did claim Jimmy was doing all the personnel moves and Jerry only handled getting the team in financial shape. You quickly changed that to 70/30 though :laugh1:

Really, what do you want? Do you have a point? You want to keep debating percentages? lol. 70/30, 75/25, 77/23, 80/20?

Bottomline, I think Jimmy was largely responsible for our personnel and drafts and success. The last few years I think BP/Ireland were largely responsible for our drafts. Both times we had success. When JJ/Lacewell were largely responsible for the personnel we got run into the ground.

Can I make it any clearer for you? Or do you want to keep arguing % of credit and so on?

 

[zrinkill]

55% Jimmy
45% Jerry

going by there 36-28 and 34-30 records in head to head years.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

For me I don't have issue giving credit to Jimmy, BP or Ireland as well as others because I believe for any franchise that has success many people play a role in that success. There is no doubt Jerry Jones has the final say even when BP was here it was said many times in interviews and articles that Jerry, Ireland and BP would sit down and debate the prospect and sometime the debates would be heated but everyone put their 2 cents in and Jerry would make the final call.

It depends on how you want to evaluate Jerry Jones. As an owner, Jerry is always going to deserve credit for winning 3 Superbowls. He hired the right people and put them in a position to win. I don't think Jerry has ever been criticized for that.

What Jerry has been criticized for and rightfully so is as a general manager. When Jerry took control of the team after Jimmy left, he was a horrible GM and essentially sank the team which he himself acknowledges so I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

When Jerry became an "owner" again and ceded control to guys like Parcells is when we started to experience success once again.

I think this last offseason is the first time Ive seen Jerry really have success as a GM. He made some gutsy calls that paid off and proved a lot of people like myself wrong especially in regards to hiring Wade Phillips as the head coach and hiring guys like Terrell Owens despite his background. And Jerry is too much of a gentleman to admit this but he essentially forced Parcells out. Jerry would never admit that if asked but I think he recognized after last season that Parcells was not the right person for the job and he was no longer going to abide by every decision to please Parcells (such as hiring Owens). Jerry also conveyed to Parcells that he didn't favor starting guys like Vinny and Drew. Maybe he said that to the media but all behind the scenes rumors and reports suggested Jerry wanted to bring new blood at QB. I think these decisions also made the job less appealing to Parcells and Bill was smart to recognize that he and Jerry probably see eye to eye any longer. That's not to suggest they had a falling out or any silly feud. But I think it was the difference in philosophy that made Parcells realize the Dallas job was no longer going to be the way he envisioned so he left. I think Jerry Jones deserves a lot of credit for sorta "motivating" Parcells to leave. As a businessmen, it was a brilliant move. Look at how AJ Smith mishandled the Schottenheimer situation; Norv has done a great job there but I think AJ would have preferred Cameron as head coach. When you see how smoothly Jerry got the people he wanted last season without any drama, it shows you how intelligent and skilled he is.

 

[Dodger12]

Their own words did not say what control either of them had.

The article and the interviews couldn't be any clearer as to the roles each person played within the organization at that time.

Point is you are stuck on the mindset that Jimmy was a one man show and Jerry was the guy along for the ride, the rest of us do not believe that. It was a 2 man show.

I don't know how many times I can repeat my position that it was not a one man show.

Jimmy handled personnel and Jerry signed the checks and handled the business end of marketing the Cowboys in a way that reinvented the NFL. Jerry is responsible for making more money for the owners than they could have ever dreamed. It was a combination that worked and saved this franchise.

......you don't sit in the draft room as an owner and not have some input.

And it WAS a Jimmy and Jerry production.

We may disagree on what that role was, but I didn't claim it was a one man show.

 

[Doomsday101]

It depends on how you want to evaluate Jerry Jones. As an owner, Jerry is always going to deserve credit for winning 3 Superbowls. He hired the right people and put them in a position to win. I don't think Jerry has ever been criticized for that.

What Jerry has been criticized for and rightfully so is as a general manager. When Jerry took control of the team after Jimmy left, he was a horrible GM and essentially sank the team which he himself acknowledges so I don't see how anyone can dispute that.

When Jerry became an "owner" again and ceded control to guys like Parcells is when we started to experience success once again.

I think this last offseason is the first time Ive seen Jerry really have success as a GM. He made some gutsy calls that paid off and proved a lot of people like myself wrong especially in regards to hiring Wade Phillips as the head coach and hiring guys like Terrell Owens despite his background. And Jerry is too much of a gentleman to admit this but he essentially forced Parcells out. Jerry would never admit that if asked but I think he recognized after last season that Parcells was not the right person for the job and he was no longer going to abide by every decision to please Parcells (such as hiring Owens). Jerry also conveyed to Parcells that he didn't favor starting guys like Vinny and Drew. Maybe he said that to the media but all behind the scenes rumors and reports suggested Jerry wanted to bring new blood at QB. I think these decisions also made the job less appealing to Parcells and Bill was smart to recognize that he and Jerry probably see eye to eye any longer. That's not to suggest they had a falling out or any silly feud. But I think it was the difference in philosophy that made Parcells realize the Dallas job was no longer going to be the way he envisioned so he left. I think Jerry Jones deserves a lot of credit for sorta "motivating" Parcells to leave. As a businessmen, it was a brilliant move. Look at how AJ Smith mishandled the Schottenheimer situation; Norv has done a great job there but I think AJ would have preferred Cameron as head coach. When you see how smoothly Jerry got the people he wanted last season without any drama, it shows you how intelligent and skilled he is.

I agree for the most part and I think Jerry has grown as a GM. There is no doubt that how things were being done after Jimmy left were poor even to the extent that Jones came out and acknowledge that and he changed how we would do thing and from 2002 up to this past draft and FA things have improved. Jerry has put a lot more emphasis on his scouting department after all these are the men who are flying across the country and who are evaluating the players who will be entering the draft not just this upcoming draft but the next couple of drafts in advance. I think this will continue which is why I'm not as upset as some about Ireland leaving or BP not being here.

 

[Dodger12]

You keep pointing to Jimmy talking to Al Davis during a trade as a sign of proof of your position

I didn't keep pointing to that but that's neither here nor there. I pointed out an article(s) where these men were quoted as to how things developed during that time frame.

You may find something where Jerry is/was interviewed and quoted with regards to his negotiations with the Vikings and how he worked out the trade. Honestly, that woudn't surprise me in the least. But that wouldn't change my opinion that Jimmy was the primary personnel guy during their tenure together.

 

[iceberg]

Since you said 70/30 can you show me a post where I said you specifically are giving Jimmy all the credit?


Although in this very thread you did claim Jimmy was doing all the personnel moves and Jerry only handled getting the team in financial shape. You quickly changed that to 70/30 though :laugh1:

Really, what do you want? Do you have a point? You want to keep debating percentages? lol. 70/30, 75/25, 77/23, 80/20?

Bottomline, I think Jimmy was largely responsible for our personnel and drafts and success. The last few years I think BP/Ireland were largely responsible for our drafts. Both times we had success. When JJ/Lacewell were largely responsible for the personnel we got run into the ground.

Can I make it any clearer for you? Or do you want to keep arguing % of credit and so on?

doesn't look like it.

 

[5Stars]

doesn't look like it.

You think a salmon can swim upstream!!

:laugh2:

 

[Bach]

I don't know how many times I can repeat my position that it was not a one man show.

We may disagree on what that role was, but I didn't claim it was a one man show.

:laugh2:

I don't know what's with some of these guys, but it's obvious they aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. Comprehension isn't one of their strong suits.

 

[Bach]

I mistyped ...it was supposed to be 96-99 just like Jimmy's time ..... looking at the wins/loses total should have clued you in on that.

I was only going by what you typed. My fault for blindly believing something you posted.

As far as having a better team ..... we were an aging team with burgeoning salary cap problems and of course the mess with Michael Irvin.

The Fins had a pretty good team as well in the early 90's with the Bills keeping them out of at least 3 Superbowls imo. They also had better draft picks and salary cap situation (which is why Jimmy decided to go)

But keep making excuses man ...... the fact remains that they needed each other and neither was as effective apart.

OMG. In '96, Dallas was only 1 year removed from a Super Bowl championship. The Dolphins hadn't even been to a Super Bowl since 1984.

Yet you want to compare the records of the late 90's Dolphins to the late 90's Cowboys and act like Jimmy and Jerry are even.

What kind of twisted logic is that? The two teams weren't equal starting in '96, yet despite that Jimmy still had a better record over the time you mentioned. If anything that just proves how bad Jerry and company screwed up what Jimmy left behind.

 

[Bach]

Since you said 70/30 can you show me a post where I said you specifically are giving Jimmy all the credit?

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1878291&postcount=155

You mean you give Only Jimmy credit for good drafts and Jerry credit for bad drafts?

What do you call that?

Any more questions for me or do you just want to argue for no reason?

 

[zrinkill]

What kind of twisted logic is that?

Not near as bad as the kind that only gives Jerry the credit for bad years .....