A TO (On The Field Only Discussion) Thread

[LittleBoyBlue]

If we don't get the line fixed and get our running game going I don't think it matters.

I hear ya but I disagree somewhat. If you have an offensive threat(T.O.) the defenses will attack you differently. THAT affects the o-line. Not in a large way. But it does make a difference.

 

[gbrittain]

I hear ya but I disagree somewhat. If you have an offensive threat(T.O.) the defenses will attack you differently. THAT affects the o-line. Not in a large way. But it does make a difference.

I would never defend that sorry excuse of an offensive line we had last year, but you are 100% correct. If an opposing defense does not respect your offense then they just pin their ears back and go. That makes things much more difficult for the OL.

 

[playit12]

Part 3 - But can we use him?

So the final part is how does TO fit with out offensive strategy and more importantly our QB.

To usually runs in a WCO where he is by far the most dangerous. His strengths are the ability to catch a ball in space and turn that play into a long gain. This is predicated on passes from 5-13 or so yards. The real key is leading the WR.

Now Drew can certainly complete short passes. His last year in Buffalo he lead the league in Short pass Attempts. However his Yards after Catch for those short passes was the lowest in the league. Drew is pretty accurate at distance, so I don't think the problem is accuracy. The real problem I believe is his slow setup. By the time Drew sets up for a short pass (taking into account his lethargic drop back) he simply doesn't give his reciever any open space. The defensive secondary has already recognized the pass and droped back into pass lanes (at least the shorter pass lanes since we are mostly talking about the SS and Linebackers here). That works contrary to TO's greatest strength. Effectively then you are turning TO into either a short possesion reciever (and he drops too many passes for this) or a mid range route runner that can occasionally stretch the field. That is really not a good fit for his talents and wouldn't add much to the team in that instance.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

I would never defend that sorry excuse of an offensive line we had last year, but you are 100% correct. If an opposing defense does not respect your offense then they just pin their ears back and go. That makes things much more difficult for the OL.

Oh without a doubt there is no defending that o-line. They were out-NFL-classed.

 

[Alexander]

I would never defend that sorry excuse of an offensive line we had last year, but you are 100% correct. If an opposing defense does not respect your offense then they just pin their ears back and go. That makes things much more difficult for the OL.

Correct.

Defenses knew first, our tackles could not pass block, second, Bledsoe was immobile and third, our WRs could not get separation. There was next to no respect and they basically were daring us to beat them.

 

[gbrittain]

Correct.

Defenses knew first, our tackles could not pass block, second, Bledsoe was immobile and third, our WRs could not get separation. There was next to no respect and they basically were daring us to beat them.

Look no further than Mark Tuinei, Kevin Gogan and Nate Newton for proof of what you say. How many people thought of them as good offensive lineman until Aikman, Smith and Irvin came along. Then all of a sudden they are major players on what is considered one of the best OLs of all time.

 

[gbrittain]

Oh without a doubt there is no defending that o-line. They were out-NFL-classed.

YoMick, I knew you were not defending the OL. No one could if they tried.

 

[Ashwynn]

Thing is, with a line, you have not really upgraded your roster as well as you could have. Lets say we pick him up (uggg) and pay him 3 million. Thats 3 million for a minor upgrade at receiver when we still need an LB, FS, Olinemen out the ying yang. You have limited dollars and can upgrade significantly here or insignificantly there. Your choice. Key, Glenn and Crayton were more then adequate and more then enough. You trading or cutting Glenn, Otherwise you now have 2 number 1's - You cutting Key, great now we dont have a true possession receiver. You aint cutting or trading Crayon, So he sits and regresses into a garbage player so TO can have his touches. Good choice there.

TO is redundent, not needed and trouble. Why even bother.

 

[gbrittain]

Thing is, with a line, you have not really upgraded your roster as well as you could have. Lets say we pick him up (uggg) and pay him 3 million. Thats 3 million for a minor upgrade at receiver when we still need an LB, FS, Olinemen out the ying yang. You have limited dollars and can upgrade significantly here or insignificantly there. Your choice. Key, Glenn and Crayton were more then adequate and more then enough. You trading or cutting Glenn, Otherwise you now have 2 number 1's - You cutting Key, great now we dont have a true possession receiver. You aint cutting or trading Crayon, So he sits and regresses into a garbage player so TO can have his touches. Good choice there.

TO is redundent, not needed and trouble. Why even bother.

I hear what you are saying. Since this thread is not about should we or should we not sign him, I will say the one thing I totally disagree with you on is that Ownes is a minor upgrade over Key and Terry.

TO is a major upgrade over those two, off field issues aside.

 

[Alexander]

Look no further than Mark Tuinei, Kevin Gogan and Nate Newton for proof of what you say. How many people thought of them as good offensive lineman until Aikman, Smith and Irvin came along. Then all of a sudden they are major players on what is considered one of the best OLs of all time.

The three phases are all intertwined.

Just because you have an outstanding line doesn't mean everything else is perfect either. It certainly helps.

But look no further than Kansas City. I don't see Trent Green and their corps of WRs looking like world beaters and they have the best OL in football.

 

[DLCassidy]

The recent interview posted with Parcells from the Combine was interesting in 2 respects: one is he acknowledged the obvious about improving the o-line. I believe it will be both a FA and draft priority. So let's leave the line aside for now.

The other thing he said was the Cowboys would consider acquiring a #1 type receiver. He didn't say how. But with the weakness of this draft and FA class at WR it's hard for me to see how we'd do that if we weren't willing to use a #1 on a WR (which I doubt) or acquire TO. Now if you take Parcells at his word that the Cowboys would consider adding a top receiver, then you also have to accept the fact that this means KJ would be demoted. It ain't gonna be TG. Parcells hinted he's not sold on Crayton. So if Owens is here he starts and KJ moves to #3. No way we release KJ at a present salary of only 1.5m.

If you have two tackles that can stand on their own, 3 WR sets can be used with a LOT more regularity, especially given KJ's blocking prowess. So there's a good chance you could keep all three guys reasonably happy, as long as we're winning.

Since this is a "no hate on TO the man" thread, let me add this. I was watching a show on NFL Network last night on WR's called "Wide Open". Pretty interesting. Owens got his share of the show. But they asked Michael Irvin about the importance of a WR with a "get me the ball" attitude and he said to the effect "you need a guy that knows he can make a play, that his teammates know that no matter what's happening in the game, that guy can get it done". Do we honestly have that now? That's the positive side of having Owens on the team. He can make big plays even when the other team is geared to stopping him.

 

[playit12]

I hear what you are saying. Since this thread is not about should we or should we not sign him, I will say the one thing I totally disagree with you on is that Ownes is a minor upgrade over Key and Terry.

TO is a major upgrade over those two, off field issues aside.

I think he's complentary with Glenn (not really an upgrade... different positions).

However he is certainly a huge upgrade over Crayton or even Key (except for the short move the chains passes).

No doubt he's a big upgrade overall. Just not sure how well he'd work with Bledsoe. He's only ever played with guys that were really quick into their drop and could let the ball go fast. (Garcia, Young, McNabb).

 

[playit12]

If you have two tackles that can stand on their own, 3 WR sets can be used with a LOT more regularity, especially given KJ's blocking prowess. So there's a good chance you could keep all three guys reasonably happy, as long as we're winning.

Since this is a "no hate on TO the man" thread, let me add this. I was watching a show on NFL Network last night on WR's called "Wide Open". Pretty interesting. Owens got his share of the show. But they asked Michael Irvin about the importance of a WR with a "get me the ball" attitude and he said to the effect "you need a guy that knows he can make a play, that his teammates know that no matter what's happening in the game, that guy can get it done". Do we honestly have that now? That's the positive side of having Owens on the team. He can make big plays even when the other team is geared to stopping him.

I recall the off-season WR show the NFL network played last year. Marvin Harrison was being talked about by some coaches and scouts. They implied that he was just as crazy as TO with regards to wanting the ball every time. Basically that he always felt he was open and should always be targetted. I think that might be a trend in all good WRs not names Hines Ward. I just think TO is more "verbal" in his intent.

 

[DLCassidy]

The three phases are all intertwined.

Just because you have an outstanding line doesn't mean everything else is perfect either. It certainly helps.

But look no further than Kansas City. I don't see Trent Green and their corps of WRs looking like world beaters and they have the best OL in football.

Their offense is a world beater. #1 in the league last year and for almost 2 quarters last year looked like they were going to flat out run us out of our own building in December. That OL allows them to dictate.

Owens would be a weapon sure but I agree that unless the needed steps to shore up the OL are made, it's an exercise in futility.

 

[playit12]

Also I agree on the three WR sets if we improve on the line. I think I had that in my "part 1". But that is a big if. It's a lot of money to spend if you aren't sure.

 

[DLCassidy]

I recall the off-season WR show the NFL network played last year. Marvin Harrison was being talked about by some coaches and scouts. They implied that he was just as crazy as TO with regards to wanting the ball every time. Basically that he always felt he was open and should always be targetted. I think that might be a trend in all good WRs not names Hines Ward. I just think TO is more "verbal" in his intent.

It might have been the same show. They had Randy Moss, Chad Johnson, Marvin Harrison, Hines Ward, TO, Jimmy Smith, and Tory Holt on. That was one of the themes of the show, all these guys whine about getting the ball (Moss and Johnson were brutal). But it's a difficult balance- on one side it takes the massive ego to want the ball in the clutch, on the other as Phil Simms said "I think sometimes these guys would rather lose and get their 8-10 catches as win and not. it's all about them and their stats.".

 

[Yakuza Rich]

And how many championships did Bledsoe win with this approach?

None?

Oh.

Bledsoe's win/loss record is pretty good. I'll say the same thing I say with Tom Brady. Football isn't a one man game. For years the Pats had some pretty weak defenses and yet were still able to make the playoffs with Bledsoe. Furthermore, they did go to the Super Bowl with Bledsoe.

Even if you don't agree with the approach, the fact is that Bledsoe is the QB for this team next year and probably the next season after that. Regardless of T.O's issues off the field, he simply won't be as effective if Bledsoe can't get him the ball because we have turnstiles at offensive tackle.

I will always take a good O-Line over one great WR any day of the week.


Rich.............

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I will always take a good O-Line over one great WR any day of the week.

And so will Bill Parcells.

 

[Ashwynn]

The recent interview posted with Parcells from the Combine was interesting in 2 respects: one is he acknowledged the obvious about improving the o-line. I believe it will be both a FA and draft priority. So let's leave the line aside for now.

The other thing he said was the Cowboys would consider acquiring a #1 type receiver. He didn't say how. But with the weakness of this draft and FA class at WR it's hard for me to see how we'd do that if we weren't willing to use a #1 on a WR (which I doubt) or acquire TO. Now if you take Parcells at his word that the Cowboys would consider adding a top receiver, then you also have to accept the fact that this means KJ would be demoted. It ain't gonna be TG. Parcells hinted he's not sold on Crayton. So if Owens is here he starts and KJ moves to #3. No way we release KJ at a present salary of only 1.5m.

If you have two tackles that can stand on their own, 3 WR sets can be used with a LOT more regularity, especially given KJ's blocking prowess. So there's a good chance you could keep all three guys reasonably happy, as long as we're winning

Since this is a "no hate on TO the man" thread, let me add this. I was watching a show on NFL Network last night on WR's called "Wide Open". Pretty interesting. Owens got his share of the show. But they asked Michael Irvin about the importance of a WR with a "get me the ball" attitude and he said to the effect "you need a guy that knows he can make a play, that his teammates know that no matter what's happening in the game, that guy can get it done". Do we honestly have that now? That's the positive side of having Owens on the team. He can make big plays even when the other team is geared to stopping him.

When did he say that? Link please. I never heard that or read that yet. Where did you get that piece of info from. Please.

 

[DLCassidy]

Bledsoe's win/loss record is pretty good. I'll say the same thing I say with Tom Brady. Football isn't a one man game. For years the Pats had some pretty weak defenses and yet were still able to make the playoffs with Bledsoe. Furthermore, they did go to the Super Bowl with Bledsoe.

Even if you don't agree with the approach, the fact is that Bledsoe is the QB for this team next year and probably the next season after that. Regardless of T.O's issues off the field, he simply won't be as effective if Bledsoe can't get him the ball because we have turnstiles at offensive tackle.

I will always take a good O-Line over one great WR any day of the week.


Rich.............

I see BP trying to have both. If you assume we use draft picks to plan for the future at OG and OT, if you were just looking at 2006, how would a starting OL of Adams, Allen, Mawae, Rivera and Fabini sound? (backups Johnson, Petitti, 2 draft picks).