Andy Dalton is the equivalent of Steve Beuerlein

[Slick]

I don't worship Dak...I love the cowboys. Dak gives us the best chance to compete....

what has Dak done to you, that he has earned your hatred and wrath?

I don’t hate him. I hate his asking price. I love him under $27M. He’s just not worth what he’s asking?

How is that hate in any way?

 

[OmerV]

It’s extremely rare that a QB can improve from college to the pros in pocket accuracy. It’s why the ones who seemingly have it in college are coveted. It’s also why teams prefer a large body of work or multiple years of playing in a college system to make a decision on.
The speed of the game from college to the pros makes it really hard to improve.
I will say that some coordinators are ingenious in using a QBs mobility to mask this deficiency to some success.

Sure to a large degree here is a natural ability to throw accurately that doesn't dramatically improve in the pros. I wasn't saying otherwise. But I would say accuracy can improve as a QB gets more comfortable with the offense and his command of it because he will be less nervous and less inclined to make snap decisions on where to go with the ball. Experience does matter. Improved mechanics can also help if that is an issue.

What the previous poster indicated was that a QB cannot keep getting better without an ability to improve accuracy - more specifically he said that about Dak. Yet QB's improve all the time from their rookie year and going forward over the early years of their NFL career. That poster didn't even realize that he was making a comment about all QB's - he somehow didn't understand that his comment couldn't be limited only to Dak, or that history has proven his comment wrong over and over again. In short, there is a lot of improvement that a QB can achieve in areas above and beyond whatever level of accuracy he has.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I don’t hate him. I hate his asking price. I love him under $27M. He’s just not worth what he’s asking?

How is that hate in any way?

why do you hate the asking price? what does that matter to winning or losing. if he is a good QB and gives you a chance to win then what's wrong with paying a little extra.

you called me a dak worshiper, so you must not know me...a couple of years ago when we wanted to extend him, I was a Dak critic. I didn't want the team to give him a contract until we could see him address a few issues with his passing. back then I said, I rather wait, give him a prove it year with Kitna as his QB coach, see if he can improve and address some of his throwing issues, then if we pay a little extra, its OK, as opposed to pay and regret, which is costlier....I now strongly believe he is a very good QB, he has improved and just needed the right coach to allow him to get to the next level. now even if we pay a little extra, its OK, having the QB is the easiest and cheapest way to the superbowl....that's why they are the highest paid.

and why do you say then that I worship Dak? I don't buy the BS about him being average and I don't buy Dalton at all...why does that make me a worshiper?

 

[OmerV]

Completion % is irrelevant. It’s his accuracy and completions from the pocket that matters.
Kirk Cousins career completion % is 68%
But running bootlegs and getting outside the pocket for those easy pitch and catch masks the fact that he struggles to make the tough throws inside the pocket. And it’s those 3rd and 8’s that are the killer. Defensive coordinators can gameplay to keep a QB in the pocket. And then he falls apart.

Completion % is not irrelevant, it just isn't the whole story.

If a QB throws far and away a short, high % passes, then completion % can be pretty flawed. That was the argument against Dak early in his career, and granted Dak didn't throw downfield much then. But to have a high completion % while throwing a lot of passes, including a lot that push the ball downfield, does say something about accuracy. That is more the story with Dak now.

As for only counting accuracy from in the pocket, that's where far and away most QB's, including Dak, throw from. The occasional roll out or rolling away from the pocket, or flat out scrambling to avoid a sack, makes up a small % of passes, therefore those passes have limited ability to significantly skew the completion %. And, even if they did, I don't feel there is a dramatically higher completion rate among QB's throwing from outside the pocket anyway because a lot of those throws are while being chased, and/or the QB is throwing across his body, or when the receivers aren't getting open. A lot of those plays end up with the ball being thrown away to avoid a sack.

 

[OmerV]

why do you hate the asking price? what does that matter to winning or losing. if he is a good QB and gives you a chance to win then what's wrong with paying a little extra.

you called me a dak worshiper, so you must not know me...a couple of years ago when we wanted to extend him, I was a Dak critic. I didn't want the team to give him a contract until we could see him address a few issues with his passing. back then I said, I rather wait, give him a prove it year with Kitna as his QB coach, see if he can improve and address some of his throwing issues, then if we pay a little extra, its OK, as opposed to pay and regret, which is costlier....I now strongly believe he is a very good QB, he has improved and just needed the right coach to allow him to get to the next level. now even if we pay a little extra, its OK, having the QB is the easiest and cheapest way to the superbowl....that's why they are the highest paid.

and why do you say then that I worship Dak? I don't buy the BS about him being average and I don't buy Dalton at all...why does that make me a worshiper?

"Worshipper" and "Lover" are just buzz words used to substitute for the lack of a reasoned argument. If logic fails, grossly exaggerate to cover for it.

 

[Hadenough]

last year we had a lame duck coaching group...it was really strange....the coaching, and bad decisions cost us at least 3 games....and the saints game the fault was not Dak as he played well and we should have won, but two untimley fumbles and a dropped TD pass in a close game....the coaching against Minn. cost us that game...coaching against the patriots costs us that game (then again bilicheck vs. garrett....seriously), bad coaching cost us the bills game.......and we missed 10 field goals in a 4 game stretch from 40-50 yards out, which heavily contirbuted to bad games....it was a very very strange year, one that I don't ever remember. lame duck coaching staff, expected to go deep in playoffs in the least year of their contracts.....

Im not gonna deny that! the coaching decisions havent been that good at critical times and I have heard players mention how predictable the Cowboys are. I dont know what to make of McCarthy but I do know Nolan hasnt had a good track record and would like to see them move on from him.

 

[Slick]

why do you hate the asking price? what does that matter to winning or losing. if he is a good QB and gives you a chance to win then what's wrong with paying a little extra.

you called me a dak worshiper, so you must not know me...a couple of years ago when we wanted to extend him, I was a Dak critic. I didn't want the team to give him a contract until we could see him address a few issues with his passing. back then I said, I rather wait, give him a prove it year with Kitna as his QB coach, see if he can improve and address some of his throwing issues, then if we pay a little extra, its OK, as opposed to pay and regret, which is costlier....I now strongly believe he is a very good QB, he has improved and just needed the right coach to allow him to get to the next level. now even if we pay a little extra, its OK, having the QB is the easiest and cheapest way to the superbowl....that's why they are the highest paid.

and why do you say then that I worship Dak? I don't buy the BS about him being average and I don't buy Dalton at all...why does that make me a worshiper?

Because you defend him in every way possible.
The team has so many holes, needs on both sides of the ball. Overpaying him is a mistake. He’s slightly above average. The shortage of good QBs just make him look better.

They need to dump Jaylon, Zeke, Cooper, and Dak, and rebuild through the draft. That’s some serious cash spent for very little return.

i don’t care about them personally or begrudge them for taking those contracts, but to put this team in forward motion that spending isn’t helping it, it’s holding them back.

Just business. If it was anything that I’d love to see, it’s an incentive based model, where you go up the scale every year you perform on escalating bonuses, and you don’t get squat for just suiting up. Never gonna happen, but it would be interesting.

I’ve been a 100% based commission sales person for the last 12 years. My boss loves writing me big checks, because he’s making bigger money, and if I don’t perform, I get nada. We both have skin in the game, and take risks.

I fully understand the lifecycle of a typical NFL career, and the body sacrifices they make, but no one but a gun to their head either.

I look at dollars and cents more than most. I sold my psl licenses last year after the value dropping off the product on the field. I’ve been a fan for almost 49yrs now. Nothing will ever change that.

The truth is Jerry should have shut his trap, let Jimmy keep doing what he was doing and kept winning trophies. He should have hired a real GM decades ago but we are stuck until something changes. Hopefully Stephen will be smarter seeing no success unless he like Jerry only counts money as success. That is one thing Jerry has done well.

That looks like quite the rant.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Im not gonna deny that! the coaching decisions havent been that good at critical times and I have heard players mention how predictable the Cowboys are. I dont know what to make of McCarthy but I do know Nolan hasnt had a good track record and would like to see them move on from him.

my opinion is that coaches are ultimately responsible for winning/losing. they own the defense, offense and special teams and some combination of each will lead to a successful team. Mahomes, as great as he is. as elite as he maybe. as big a numbers as he produces, in 2018, the offense was averaging crazy 35 pts/game...but they lost in AFCCG, because their defense couldn't make critical stops...was ranked in low 20s...in 2019, they averaged 28/game, but defense improved to 14th and they won the superbowl....so do you need defense to win? yes, but doesn't have to be top 10, if you have a patrick mahomes....if you don't then yes, you need a better defense..

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Because you defend him in every way possible.
The team has so many holes, needs on both sides of the ball. Overpaying him is a mistake. He’s slightly above average. The shortage of good QBs just make him look better.

They need to dump Jaylon, Zeke, Cooper, and Dak, and rebuild through the draft. That’s some serious cash spent for very little return.

i don’t care about them personally or begrudge them for taking those contracts, but to put this team in forward motion that spending isn’t helping it, it’s holding them back.

Just business. If it was anything that I’d love to see, it’s an incentive based model, where you go up the scale every year you perform on escalating bonuses, and you don’t get squat for just suiting up. Never gonna happen, but it would be interesting.

I’ve been a 100% based commission sales person for the last 12 years. My boss loves writing me big checks, because he’s making bigger money, and if I don’t perform, I get nada. We both have skin in the game, and take risks.

I fully understand the lifecycle of a typical NFL career, and the body sacrifices they make, but no one but a gun to their head either.

I look at dollars and cents more than most. I sold my psl licenses last year after the value dropping off the product on the field. I’ve been a fan for almost 49yrs now. Nothing will ever change that.

The truth is Jerry should have shut his trap, let Jimmy keep doing what he was doing and kept winning trophies. He should have hired a real GM decades ago but we are stuck until something changes. Hopefully Stephen will be smarter seeing no success unless he like Jerry only counts money as success. That is one thing Jerry has done well.

That looks like quite the rant.

I dispel the BS that's put out there. I challenge your assumptions and false statements...that's not defending him. that's throwing facts at Bullshiet.

the team has so many holes and you think going cheap with a craapy QB like Dalton is the solution. how can we compensate for lack of QB play......lets say you save 20M, how many great players are you going to get with that money? you are trying to solve the problem the wrong way. the reason we have holes, specially on defense, is that in 15 years we have drafted 1 player of impact (I am counting Lawrence as that player).....a single player of impact on defense. guess how many impact players we have drafted on offense? we just don't draft well defensively. figure that out and you will fix the holes.....you CANNOT BUILD A DEFENSE THROUGH FA. no one has done it and been successful. the players that hit FA are flawed, old, injured, head cases. no team in their right mind will let their good players get away without either trying to put them under contract or trading them and getting something in return....

Dak is a top 10 QB. every stat supports it. 50 NFL FO personnel support it. your skewed view, because you don't like the contract number is just that...skewed.

and giving Jaylon a contract was a mistake....drafting him was a mistake.(see defensive draft)
giving Zeke a contract with 2 years left on the contract is a mistake
I liked the cooper signing and contract, given we didn't know we will have CD....

we should dump Jaylon, zeke (I doubt if we can and will)...and draft....yes, draft....and build a defense through draft, but given past 15 years....whats your confidence in that?

plus, you want to go chasing for a QB in the draft? what's the probability of finding the right QB...unless you draft top 5 or top 2....and not end up with Carson Wentz or Goff.

and if you pick lower, it probably will take time to develop the QB..if that, else you go hunting again? and if you develop the QB, now do you let him walk because you don't like the numbers...ala Dak?

the easiest path to the superbowl is through a top 10 QB play...you want to build and win through a defense, you better hit on everyone of them and build an all time best defense...like Ravens did with Dilfer or chicago did with Grossman....

and yes, jerry should have shut his trap and let jimmy do his thing. his ego and stupidity got in the way. I strongly believe if Jimmy was back with us in 94, we would have won another superbowl. three in a row.

 

[Diehardblues]

Truth. The teams in our 3 game winning streak have a combined record of 14-29-1. Winning is always good. But the talk of a “playoff run” with this team is very unrealistic in my view.

About the equivalence of the 3 teams we beat to open the season last year.

 

[Diehardblues]

I guess being a zone supporter allows you certain privileges, like using Dak666 on the sig. That's pathetic, even for a little man with no cajones like you.

Remember he’s a zone supporter. We need to be thankful it’s members like him which afford others to be here

 

[ShaneFalco]

By this standard no QB can ever improve, so it's nonsense.

Reality is mechanics can be taught. Understanding the offense can be taught, and improves with experience. Reading defenses can be taught and also improves with experience. There is a lot of growth any QB can achieve aside from just throwing the ball from point A to point B.

Besides, the rumors of Dak's lack of accuracy are greatly exaggerated. Dak may not be the most accurate in the NFL, but when he got hurt he had a 68% completion rate while leading the league in yardage by a long shot, and that couldn't happen if he was as horrible as some make him out to be.

It’s extremely rare that a QB can improve from college to the pros in pocket accuracy. It’s why the ones who seemingly have it in college are coveted. It’s also why teams prefer a large body of work or multiple years of playing in a college system to make a decision on.
The speed of the game from college to the pros makes it really hard to improve.
I will say that some coordinators are ingenious in using a QBs mobility to mask this deficiency to some success.

Sure to a large degree here is a natural ability to throw accurately that doesn't dramatically improve in the pros. I wasn't saying otherwise. But I would say accuracy can improve as a QB gets more comfortable with the offense and his command of it because he will be less nervous and less inclined to make snap decisions on where to go with the ball. Experience does matter. Improved mechanics can also help if that is an issue.

What the previous poster indicated was that a QB cannot keep getting better without an ability to improve accuracy - more specifically he said that about Dak. Yet QB's improve all the time from their rookie year and going forward over the early years of their NFL career. That poster didn't even realize that he was making a comment about all QB's - he somehow didn't understand that his comment couldn't be limited only to Dak, or that history has proven his comment wrong over and over again. In short, there is a lot of improvement that a QB can achieve in areas above and beyond whatever level of accuracy he has.

I would say that accurate QBs in college can become more or stay accurate in the pros but guys that struggle usually still struggle in the Pros. But having a Jason Witten or a Jerry Rice sure is nice and helps out a lot. You are correct in that regard, with enough time, some QBs can improve with specific players if they are Pro Bowl level receivers. Jake Plummer played for a decade with 60%. completion.

 

[Diehardblues]

I’d argue Dalton is more than Steve B was. He had a playoff soon to be SB team with a top 10 caliber defense.

Dalton has one of the worse defenses in Cowboy history and the most beat up OL in recent years.

 

[Diehardblues]

Because you defend him in every way possible.
The team has so many holes, needs on both sides of the ball. Overpaying him is a mistake. He’s slightly above average. The shortage of good QBs just make him look better.

They need to dump Jaylon, Zeke, Cooper, and Dak, and rebuild through the draft. That’s some serious cash spent for very little return.

i don’t care about them personally or begrudge them for taking those contracts, but to put this team in forward motion that spending isn’t helping it, it’s holding them back.

Just business. If it was anything that I’d love to see, it’s an incentive based model, where you go up the scale every year you perform on escalating bonuses, and you don’t get squat for just suiting up. Never gonna happen, but it would be interesting.

I’ve been a 100% based commission sales person for the last 12 years. My boss loves writing me big checks, because he’s making bigger money, and if I don’t perform, I get nada. We both have skin in the game, and take risks.

I fully understand the lifecycle of a typical NFL career, and the body sacrifices they make, but no one but a gun to their head either.

I look at dollars and cents more than most. I sold my psl licenses last year after the value dropping off the product on the field. I’ve been a fan for almost 49yrs now. Nothing will ever change that.

The truth is Jerry should have shut his trap, let Jimmy keep doing what he was doing and kept winning trophies. He should have hired a real GM decades ago but we are stuck until something changes. Hopefully Stephen will be smarter seeing no success unless he like Jerry only counts money as success. That is one thing Jerry has done well.

That looks like quite the rant.

But Jethro won’t do those things that need to be done. A middle tier QB can keep his franchise relevant which is all he needs to keep the Cowboys in the spotlight. Romo did it for 10 years.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Completion % is not irrelevant, it just isn't the whole story.

If a QB throws far and away a short, high % passes, then completion % can be pretty flawed. That was the argument against Dak early in his career, and granted Dak didn't throw downfield much then. But to have a high completion % while throwing a lot of passes, including a lot that push the ball downfield, does say something about accuracy. That is more the story with Dak now.

As for only counting accuracy from in the pocket, that's where far and away most QB's, including Dak, throw from. The occasional roll out or rolling away from the pocket, or flat out scrambling to avoid a sack, makes up a small % of passes, therefore those passes have limited ability to significantly skew the completion %. And, even if they did, I don't feel there is a dramatically higher completion rate among QB's throwing from outside the pocket anyway because a lot of those throws are while being chased, and/or the QB is throwing across his body, or when the receivers aren't getting open. A lot of those plays end up with the ball being thrown away to avoid a sack.

I would say a lot of QBs are put into space or a moving pocket, which I personally don’t count as pocket passing. Allen is excellent at this in BUF. He was never very accurate in college and Daboll has really tailored his offense to fit Allen’s strengths. Jackson is doing the same thing in BALT. And Reid loves getting Mahommes into space as well. So they are moving and throwing. A sort of boot without turning your back to the LOS. Quick passes too.
However, Mahommes is excellent in the pocket. Really accurate just dropping back, 5-7 step drop and hitting his receivers. He has an uncanny knack for throwing where only his guy can get it. On the run or in the pocket. It’s Elwayesque. I hate to say it, but he’s very good.
But these other QBs will eventually be exploited. Allen and Jackson will be forced to throw from the pocket on 3rd and 8 consistently because teams will begin to have enough tape and scheme them into the pocket. We will see if they struggle.
I still believe that throwing from the pocket consistently and accurately is the most important trait a college QB can have going into the pros. It’s just imperative

 

[Slick]

I dispel the BS that's put out there. I challenge your assumptions and false statements...that's not defending him. that's throwing facts at Bullshiet.

the team has so many holes and you think going cheap with a craapy QB like Dalton is the solution. how can we compensate for lack of QB play......lets say you save 20M, how many great players are you going to get with that money? you are trying to solve the problem the wrong way. the reason we have holes, specially on defense, is that in 15 years we have drafted 1 player of impact (I am counting Lawrence as that player).....a single player of impact on defense. guess how many impact players we have drafted on offense? we just don't draft well defensively. figure that out and you will fix the holes.....you CANNOT BUILD A DEFENSE THROUGH FA. no one has done it and been successful. the players that hit FA are flawed, old, injured, head cases. no team in their right mind will let their good players get away without either trying to put them under contract or trading them and getting something in return....

Dak is a top 10 QB. every stat supports it. 50 NFL FO personnel support it. your skewed view, because you don't like the contract number is just that...skewed.

and giving Jaylon a contract was a mistake....drafting him was a mistake.(see defensive draft)
giving Zeke a contract with 2 years left on the contract is a mistake
I liked the cooper signing and contract, given we didn't know we will have CD....

we should dump Jaylon, zeke (I doubt if we can and will)...and draft....yes, draft....and build a defense through draft, but given past 15 years....whats your confidence in that?

plus, you want to go chasing for a QB in the draft? what's the probability of finding the right QB...unless you draft top 5 or top 2....and not end up with Carson Wentz or Goff.

and if you pick lower, it probably will take time to develop the QB..if that, else you go hunting again? and if you develop the QB, now do you let him walk because you don't like the numbers...ala Dak?

the easiest path to the superbowl is through a top 10 QB play...you want to build and win through a defense, you better hit on everyone of them and build an all time best defense...like Ravens did with Dilfer or chicago did with Grossman....

and yes, jerry should have shut his trap and let jimmy do his thing. his ego and stupidity got in the way. I strongly believe if Jimmy was back with us in 94, we would have won another superbowl. three in a row.

Where did I mention FA. I clearly said draft. It’ll take 3-5 yrs.

Take the best player available, or second. FA is only an option for a team missing one hole. Without depth, it’s worthless.

 

[Birch_Wood]

I just read in FanNation that Andy has thrown for 1,926 yards on 187 of 286 passes with 14 touchdowns. Shazam, Gomer.

 

[Ranching]

Remember he’s a zone supporter. We need to be thankful it’s members like him which afford others to be here

He's an athletic supporter

 

[kskboys]

why do you hate the asking price? what does that matter to winning or losing. if he is a good QB and gives you a chance to win then what's wrong with paying a little extra.

you called me a dak worshiper, so you must not know me...a couple of years ago when we wanted to extend him, I was a Dak critic. I didn't want the team to give him a contract until we could see him address a few issues with his passing. back then I said, I rather wait, give him a prove it year with Kitna as his QB coach, see if he can improve and address some of his throwing issues, then if we pay a little extra, its OK, as opposed to pay and regret, which is costlier....I now strongly believe he is a very good QB, he has improved and just needed the right coach to allow him to get to the next level. now even if we pay a little extra, its OK, having the QB is the easiest and cheapest way to the superbowl....that's why they are the highest paid.

and why do you say then that I worship Dak? I don't buy the BS about him being average and I don't buy Dalton at all...why does that make me a worshiper?

Overpaying players keeps you from super bowl contention.

 

[Slick]

But Jethro won’t do those things that need to be done. A middle tier QB can keep his franchise relevant which is all he needs to keep the Cowboys in the spotlight. Romo did it for 10 years.

Yes he did, and Romo was overpaid, and with no lessons learned, history is about to repeat itself with Dak.