Anyone agree with this: Dallas has a good secondary

[KingintheNorth]

There's a reason they gave Church a healthy NFL contract.

Jerry has a history of overpaying players.

Because he's a damn good strong safety.

Please support with evidence.

And 32 general managers would say the same thing.

A HUGE leap here. No way to confirm and highly unlikely.

 

[CCBoy]

Few things I will need to see. Claiborne needs to pick up where he was last year. He only struggled against Evans. I want to see Byron Jones make that jump, wasn't impressed with him at all at corner and still question his ball awareness. I also want to see if Brown is really anything to write home about or if he's just some training camp warrior.

We already know what Carr is, not as bad as some here say he is but far from what we wanted him to be. Church is a solid tackler (Not sure what happened last year) but not much in coverage.

Oh, he will be better and one can bank on that. This is only year two in his development...and one can bank on that.

An injury past and learning curve only took five seasons for Claiborne to finally give the appearance of quality talent...I'm not giving up on him.

 

[KingintheNorth]

only took five seasons

Seriously?

 

[erod]

Jerry has a history of overpaying players.
Please support with evidence.

A HUGE leap here. No way to confirm and highly unlikely.

What's to support? He's a terrific player. Best tackler on the team. Smart. Calls the defenses with Lee.

With no pass rush, the secondary is going to look bad. Geez, Deion would look bad. Plus, Church was too often asked to play deep safety, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT HE IS. Neither is Wilcox, which was the problem. Heath was better at it than both of them. Now, Byron Jones is the type of player to play deep, so Church can do what he's good at.

Church is what Roy Williams was supposed to be. A big, hard-hitting safety that can play the run, cover underneath against tight ends and backs. And he can play nickel linebacker.

If you want a game to watch, go back and watch his game at Philly a couple of years ago. He was everywhere.

 

[CCBoy]

Seriously?

The Skido is about a hundred meters down the road...you can't see beyond your nose?

Erod, just leave Chris to gather wood for the burn barrel...

 

[Jstopper]

Jerry has a history of overpaying players.

The cowboys have not overpaid a player in the last 5 years. That's old jerry.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Barry Church is not underrated particularly amongst the press who loves him. Carr is a dependable consistent players who struggles against elite quickness. Claiborne is erratic and injury prone. Jones is on his way to elite but I want to see at least a season at FS before I crown him. There is not a ton of FS talent across the league.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

We'll disagree on this. I see a player who mostly handles his assignment and occasionally makes a mistake. His mistakes get harped on by the fan base while the numerous times he's in good position or makes the play are ignored.

He's not perfect because he doesn't have good speed for recovery, but he's rarely attacked because he plays with good awareness and knowledge.

If Church was as bad as some of you believe he is teams would target him a lot more than they do, much like they started to do with Roy Williams, which led to his career demise.

Even a neophyte should be able to see we were attacked in the middle of the field a lot. Church is a S and if he was 'in the right spot' a lot, that should mean that we would have seen him driving on some of those throws. Yet if were being honest with ourselves we never see that.

What I see is a space defender that QBs know has terrible range and they throw around him mercilessly as he cannot catch up. In front of him beside him. When it was Wilber and Church on that side of the field? bleh.

 

[CCBoy]

Is it finally time to put some respect on Morris Claiborne's name?




...Claiborne began his career with offseason wrist surgery to correct an issue that happened in 2011 against Alabama. Since then, nagging knee, hamstring and migraine setbacks have kept him from ever reaching the potential that caused the Cowboys to trade up for him. Now coming off an offseason where he was completely healthy, Claiborne is starting to turn some heads of those people who have already turned their backs on him.

Throughout the first week, Claiborne has battled Dez Bryant in one-on-ones; he has even gotten the better of Dez early on with batting down passes, something rarely seen when Dez is on the field and healthy...

It’s only been one week, but Cowboys cornerback Morris Claiborne may be starting to resemble the player he was at LSU. The fifth-year pro has battled injuries since entering the league as the sixth-overall pick in 2012. He’s also battled expectations. Claiborne began his career with offseason wrist surgery to correct an issue that happened in 2011 against Alabama. Since then, nagging knee, hamstring and migraine setbacks have kept him from ever reaching the potential that caused the Cowboys to trade up for him. Now coming off an offseason where he was completely healthy, Claiborne is starting to turn some heads of those people who have already turned their backs on him...

It’s easy to write this off as just practice, however these are the first consistent glimpses from Claiborne in his entire career. Normally Claiborne shining was followed closely by some sort of injury or set back; in 2014 he sealed the victory against the Rams with his interception but proceeded to abandon Valley Ranch during the following week due to a fallout with coaches and suffered a season ending knee injury in the upcoming game. So although camp is still early, these progressions are something to celebrate.

The Cowboys need Claiborne to reach close to the level they expected when they drafted him. With a injury and suspension-ravished front seven, a healthy and confident Claiborne can provide the much needed back-end support for a young group in front of him. And if he can continue to give Bryant fits in training camp, then there’s not a wide receiver in the NFL that he should fear moving into the season.

Is it finally time to put some respect on Morris Claiborne's name?

 

[the_h0wey]

I could be wrong, but I constantly see people here complaining about the depth in our DB position. ASSUMING THEY ALL STAY HEALTHY, I actually believe this area is one of the strongest in our team

Morris Claiborne-He's not a shutdown corner, but I've seen first round CBs play far worse than him. He's a good CB with a high ceiling. Just needs to stay healthy

Brandon Carr-Never gets hurt, always reliable. I for one think he is one of the most underrated players on our team.

Orlando Scandrick-I'm putting this guy in the third spot only because he's coming from injury. In my opinion, when he's healthy, he is no doubt one of the best slot CBs in the game. He struggled a bit in the 2014 playoffs though.

Byron Jones-Could be a star in the making, but I think that he's going to help the CBs with his intelligence and his freakish athletic ability.

Barry Church-Like Carr, he's underrated and dependable. He's not Troy Polamalu or anything, but I think he brings a toughness to our football team. He's a good run stopper but a bit of a reliability in coverage. I think Byron can do wonders for his career too.

Anthony Brown-So far, this guy appears to be homerun pick. He reminds me of Scandrick when we first drafted him. If i'm betting money, he will be replacing Mo or Brandon next year. He will have some growing pains but I think he will make more big plays throughout the season.


Granted I know we have a poor defensive line, but if we can get serviceable pressure, perhaps our talents in the secondary will shine.

We do not have a good secondary. To say we do is nothing less than ignorant. Carr and Claiborne ranked as 2 of the worst corners in the league last year with PFF. Scandrick who is our best defensive player is coming back from a major injury. Byron Jones has a lot of upside, but is still very unproven. Wilcox and Church are absolutely atrocious in coverage. Ridiculous thread

 

[dogunwo]

The group is young, but has some dependable pieces in it. I think a trio of linebackers that includes Sean Lee, is already ahead of any section grades. They, as a group are solid, hitters, and hustle aggressively. Anthony Hitchens shows up with positives a lot. Then the addition of Justin Durant is a plus.

CCBoy, not one of those LBs you listed there have proven to be dependable. All of them are injury prone. They are a good trio, dependable I think not.

 

[perrykemp]

There's a reason they gave Church a healthy NFL contract. Because he's a damn good strong safety. And 32 general managers would say the same thing.

Erod:

I have a ton of respect for your takes on just about everything here on CZ, but I just don't see it with Church. Couple of thoughts:

• Church is basically getting paid $2m a year (4y, $8.8m contract) which, for a veteran, is indicative of a borderline player.
• For Church to play 15 games as a NFL starting safety and end up with 0 interceptions, 0 passes defensed, 0 fumble recoveries, and 1 forced fumble is pretty incredible. His season was utterly devoid of splash plays.
• He is a good run stopper. He was a <great> run stopper earlier in his career -- I found great joy in watching him take down just about everyone he got his hands on. His run defense has declined a bit in the past year or two -- still good, however.
• How about this for an incredible stat for a DB -- he has a grand total of 12 passes defensed and 3 interceptions in the career. In other words, in his 78 games played so far, he averages touching a football in the air just once every 5 games. I'm not talking just interceptions, I'm just talking about deflecting passes, etc. Its an absolutely a shocking stat for a DB.

All in all, I think Church is one of the worst starting safeties in the NFL as it relates to pass defense. I'd rank him 2/10 in pass coverage.

I believe he is a good stopper. I'd give him a 7/10 in run defense (I think he was 9/10 as recently as 2014).

All in all, that makes him a 4.5 out 10 player. Below average. Not good. Not great.

 

[CCBoy]

We do not have a good secondary. To say we do is nothing less than ignorant. Carr and Claiborne ranked as 2 of the worst corners in the league last year with PFF. Scandrick who is our best defensive player is coming back from a major injury. Byron Jones has a lot of upside, but is still very unproven. Wilcox and Church are absolutely atrocious in coverage. Ridiculous thread

Let's put this on hold and recheck into the season...

 

[CCBoy]

CCBoy, not one of those LBs you listed there have proven to be dependable. All of them are injury prone. They are a good trio, dependable I think not.

Old age and injury...poor statistics to measure a team or man by!

 

[CCBoy]

Erod:

I have a ton of respect for your takes on just about everything here on CZ, but I just don't see it with Church. Couple of thoughts:

• Church is basically getting paid $2m a year (4y, $8.8m contract) which, for a veteran, is indicative of a borderline player.
• For Church to play 15 games as a NFL starting safety and end up with 0 interceptions, 0 passes defensed, 0 fumble recoveries, and 1 forced fumble is pretty incredible. His season was utterly devoid of splash plays.
• He is a good run stopper. He was a <great> run stopper earlier in his career -- I found great joy in watching him take down just about everyone he got his hands on. His run defense has declined a bit in the past year or two -- still good, however.
• How about this for an incredible stat for a DB -- he has a grand total of 12 passes defensed and 3 interceptions in the career. In other words, in his 78 games played so far, he averages touching a football in the air just once every 5 games. I'm not talking just interceptions, I'm just talking about deflecting passes, etc. Its an absolutely a shocking stat for a DB.

All in all, I think Church is one of the worst starting safeties in the NFL as it relates to pass defense. I'd rank him 2/10 in pass coverage.

I believe he is a good stopper. I'd give him a 7/10 in run defense (I think he was 9/10 as recently as 2014).

All in all, that makes him a 4.5 out 10 player. Below average. Not good. Not great.

Good stuff...nice effort. But doesn't one also think that results for everyone was down in a poor season from last year?

 

[KingintheNorth]

Erod:

I have a ton of respect for your takes on just about everything here on CZ, but I just don't see it with Church. Couple of thoughts:

• Church is basically getting paid $2m a year (4y, $8.8m contract) which, for a veteran, is indicative of a borderline player.
• For Church to play 15 games as a NFL starting safety and end up with 0 interceptions, 0 passes defensed, 0 fumble recoveries, and 1 forced fumble is pretty incredible. His season was utterly devoid of splash plays.
• He is a good run stopper. He was a <great> run stopper earlier in his career -- I found great joy in watching him take down just about everyone he got his hands on. His run defense has declined a bit in the past year or two -- still good, however.
• How about this for an incredible stat for a DB -- he has a grand total of 12 passes defensed and 3 interceptions in the career. In other words, in his 78 games played so far, he averages touching a football in the air just once every 5 games. I'm not talking just interceptions, I'm just talking about deflecting passes, etc. Its an absolutely a shocking stat for a DB.

All in all, I think Church is one of the worst starting safeties in the NFL as it relates to pass defense. I'd rank him 2/10 in pass coverage.

I believe he is a good stopper. I'd give him a 7/10 in run defense (I think he was 9/10 as recently as 2014).

All in all, that makes him a 4.5 out 10 player. Below average. Not good. Not great.

Great post @perrykemp but be prepared for people to completely ignore your stats. Confirmation bias.

 

[DenCWBY]

Is it finally time to put some respect on Morris Claiborne's name?




...Claiborne began his career with offseason wrist surgery to correct an issue that happened in 2011 against Alabama. Since then, nagging knee, hamstring and migraine setbacks have kept him from ever reaching the potential that caused the Cowboys to trade up for him. Now coming off an offseason where he was completely healthy, Claiborne is starting to turn some heads of those people who have already turned their backs on him.

Throughout the first week, Claiborne has battled Dez Bryant in one-on-ones; he has even gotten the better of Dez early on with batting down passes, something rarely seen when Dez is on the field and healthy...

It’s only been one week, but Cowboys cornerback Morris Claiborne may be starting to resemble the player he was at LSU. The fifth-year pro has battled injuries since entering the league as the sixth-overall pick in 2012. He’s also battled expectations. Claiborne began his career with offseason wrist surgery to correct an issue that happened in 2011 against Alabama. Since then, nagging knee, hamstring and migraine setbacks have kept him from ever reaching the potential that caused the Cowboys to trade up for him. Now coming off an offseason where he was completely healthy, Claiborne is starting to turn some heads of those people who have already turned their backs on him...

It’s easy to write this off as just practice, however these are the first consistent glimpses from Claiborne in his entire career. Normally Claiborne shining was followed closely by some sort of injury or set back; in 2014 he sealed the victory against the Rams with his interception but proceeded to abandon Valley Ranch during the following week due to a fallout with coaches and suffered a season ending knee injury in the upcoming game. So although camp is still early, these progressions are something to celebrate.

The Cowboys need Claiborne to reach close to the level they expected when they drafted him. With a injury and suspension-ravished front seven, a healthy and confident Claiborne can provide the much needed back-end support for a young group in front of him. And if he can continue to give Bryant fits in training camp, then there’s not a wide receiver in the NFL that he should fear moving into the season.

Is it finally time to put some respect on Morris Claiborne's name?

He's had plenty of injuries which gives way to excuses about potentially adding value to the defense. Julian Edelman broke MC's ankles last year and I cannot get that play out of my mind when thinking of his one on one coverage skills. Zone he looks lost a lot of the time and lastly he's just a bad tackler. Looks like he just doesn't want to mix it up.
I have been very critical on MC from the start and hope that I eat a lot of crow this year if he finally makes the turn. PLEASE MC prove me wrong.

 

[gimmesix]

Even a neophyte should be able to see we were attacked in the middle of the field a lot. Church is a S and if he was 'in the right spot' a lot, that should mean that we would have seen him driving on some of those throws. Yet if were being honest with ourselves we never see that.

What I see is a space defender that QBs know has terrible range and they throw around him mercilessly as he cannot catch up. In front of him beside him. When it was Wilber and Church on that side of the field? bleh.

We are not a Cover-2 team. We play more Cover-1 with Wilcox lining up as the deep-middle safety. Church's responsibility a lot was to serve as an extra linebacker to play the run or the back coming out on passes. We did this quite a bit, bringing in Byron Jones to match up with tight ends. Church would cover the back or receiver in the flat, Jones the tight end, the corners would man up on the receivers, Wilcox would run the deep middle and the linebackers would play the short middle and the other flat.

This was not exclusive because we would use traditional Cover-2 at times and would blitz at times, changing up the responsibilities.

As I said, I'd have to go back and look, but I do not remember Church being in zone coverage in areas that were attacked mercilessly. He broke down poorly on some runs and bit on some play-fakes, but I can't remember teams overly attacking him in coverage.

 

[perrykemp]

Good stuff...nice effort. But doesn't one also think that results for everyone was down in a poor season from last year?

CCBoy:

Yes the whole defense was down last season, however, I'd argue Barry Church has always been a poor in pass coverage. That stats don't lie there.

 

[gimmesix]

Erod:

I have a ton of respect for your takes on just about everything here on CZ, but I just don't see it with Church. Couple of thoughts:

• How about this for an incredible stat for a DB -- he has a grand total of 12 passes defensed and 3 interceptions in the career. In other words, in his 78 games played so far, he averages touching a football in the air just once every 5 games. I'm not talking just interceptions, I'm just talking about deflecting passes, etc. Its an absolutely a shocking stat for a DB.

Perry, this means little without knowledge of how many times he was targeted. You don't have to defend a lot of passes if QBs don't throw your way. I don't remember them throwing in Church's direction that often.