Anyone agree with this: Dallas has a good secondary

perrykemp

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Perry, this means little without knowledge of how many times he was targeted. You don't have to defend a lot of passes if QBs don't throw your way. I don't remember them throwing in Church's direction that often.

I certainly didn't do a scientific All-22 analysis. I guess its a possibility that Wilcox was so terrible teams chose to target him more often than not in the middle of the field.

I grant you that's may have something to do with Church's 0 interceptions and 0 passes defensed...

Having said that, let's be honest with ourselves -- I don't think Church is the safety version of Deion Sanders where teams are doing everything humanly possible to avoid his area of the field.
 

CCBoy

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CCBoy:

Yes the whole defense was down last season, however, I'd argue Barry Church has always been a poor in pass coverage. That stats don't lie there.

He has been serviceable...sometimes those players make a unit. No doubt, this secondary...defensive side of ball, is improving. Church has been a leader, and when it was needed

He's a strong safety...nothing more, but he is a solid NFL player. Not just a dime a dozen. Woodson had some down moments, and some of them cost the Cowboys in close games...but he was a very good safety. Church has given his all. Until his slot comes up for change, I'm not knocking him. He gives us and his team, his heart. I think a couple 'other' positional needs have to be secure before he hears from the Turk.
 

gimmesix

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I certainly didn't do a scientific All-22 analysis. I guess its a possibility that Wilcox was so terrible teams chose to target him more often than not in the middle of the field.

I grant you that's may have something to do with Church's 0 interceptions and 0 passes defensed...

Having said that, let's be honest with ourselves -- I don't think Church is the safety version of Deion Sanders where teams are doing everything humanly possible to avoid his area of the field.

No, he's definitely not. He's not even a great coverage safety, and no one should mistake him for that.

He's a crafty safety who covers for his limited speed by usually being in the right spot, which leads to QBs generally attacking an easier target. However, being in the right spot doesn't mean you aren't going to get beaten at times by superior athletes, which happens.

Church's run defense, which is definitely his strength, slipped last year and that was disappointing. His pass defense was about what it has been in his career, which means he doesn't get out of position to be targeted often.

Put it this way: If your options are to throw at a receiver who has an underneath defender holding his ground like he's supposed to or to throw at a receiver whose defender has turned his hips because of another receiver's route, which one are you going to choose?

There's the difference between Church and Wilcox. Church is dependable without the ability to be stellar, while Wilcox actually has the skill-set to be stellar but is not dependable.
Quarterbacks will attack Church when there isn't a better option available because they know he's limited, but he doesn't make it easy enough on him to pick him over a blown coverage or wide-open receiver.

Ideally, you replace both Wilcox and Church, but you can live with the dependable guy. However, he did make some mistakes that aren't typical for him in run defense last year and he needs to get that shored up.
 

Sydla

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There's a reason they gave Church a healthy NFL contract. Because he's a damn good strong safety. And 32 general managers would say the same thing.

Now he's a "damn good" strong safety?

LOL.

No offense but because the Cowboys paid Church doesn't mean he's good. We also once traded a bunch of picks for Roy Williams and he was an average WR at best.
 

Sydla

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What's to support? He's a terrific player. Best tackler on the team. Smart. Calls the defenses with Lee.

With no pass rush, the secondary is going to look bad. Geez, Deion would look bad. Plus, Church was too often asked to play deep safety, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT HE IS. Neither is Wilcox, which was the problem. Heath was better at it than both of them. Now, Byron Jones is the type of player to play deep, so Church can do what he's good at.

Church is what Roy Williams was supposed to be. A big, hard-hitting safety that can play the run, cover underneath against tight ends and backs. And he can play nickel linebacker.

If you want a game to watch, go back and watch his game at Philly a couple of years ago. He was everywhere.

That game in Philly was two seasons ago. Why does that game carry more weight than his screw up games last year?
 

CCBoy

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The game he is referencing was two years ago in Philly, not last season.


Try adding up what is given...not just ignoring what is provided. Last season is also a prior year...but the entire defense under played. Yea, go figure...:)
 

kiheikiwi

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Just read thru this thread, my take - do we have a good secondary ? Not yet. But we do seem to have picked up some depth this season. Byron Jones will be a good FS, will it be this year ? Yes and No. Just his athletic ability will help, I expect him to make mistakes but show the potential to be really good. Church and Wilcox at SS, where Wilcox always should have been. Church is a team leader - no matter what anyone here thinks, he is trusted by Garrett and co. BUT, I think this is a position that will be upgraded in the next draft or two. Scandrick - good player, will get back to himself the longer the season goes. Claiborne and Carr - meh, they are what they are, for 1 more year. Hope Claiborne comes on this year and earns himself a new contract with us. If he does, it means he has finally played all season and reasonably well. Carr - this is his last year. We have some promise in some of the backups, will wait till the year plays out to see who comes out of this group..
If the DE's cannot get to the QB, our secondary will again be in trouble - but not as bad as last year - I don't think.
What I do expect is the next draft will see us take a corner either first or second round, depending on how our front holds up this year (another second round DE would give me stomach pain for life). But I could live with a 1st round corner, 2nd round DE - if they are not doing the injury thing and character thing. Or vice versa.
So, promise for a better secondary, not quite there yet.
 

Sydla

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Try adding up what is given...not just ignoring what is provided. Last season is also a prior year...but the entire defense under played. Yea, go figure...:)

The point went right over your head.
 

CyberB0b

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I don't think we have a good secondary. It is probably league average at best.
 

erod

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Now he's a "damn good" strong safety?

LOL.

No offense but because the Cowboys paid Church doesn't mean he's good. We also once traded a bunch of picks for Roy Williams and he was an average WR at best.

Uh.....we're talking about strong safeties. Roy OU Williams.
 

erod

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That game in Philly was two seasons ago. Why does that game carry more weight than his screw up games last year?
Look, the Cowboys absolutely love the guy. They do. You don't. End of story.
 

Rack

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Haven't seen them play a game this year so it's too soon to say they're good, or bad.

If they don't find a way to pressure the qb it won't matter.
 

Sydla

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Uh.....we're talking about strong safeties. Roy OU Williams.

I know that. My point is that just because we signed him doesn't mean he's any good. This franchise has overvalued players before, such as Williams the WR who we overpaid for with picks.
 

Sydla

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Look, the Cowboys absolutely love the guy. They do. You don't. End of story.

Great insight.

Obviously they love him. I think the point being made by some here is that Cowboys are overvaluing him and it's not the first time they've overvalued a guy.

They loved Hayden too for too long:
 
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