Anyone but skin homers really think

[DallasEast]

This brought up a thought that is kind of off topic, but I was wondering what you guys consider more important yards or catches. No, this is not a thinly veiled attempt to compare TO and Moss, 'Skins fan or not, TO is obviously on a higher level. Just curious as to the opinions of fellow football fans.

Between two players with these stats who had the better year?

100 catches 1500 yards 12 TDs
85 catches 1500 yards 12 TDs

I've never been able to form a solid opinion on this myself.

I think that you have to enter YAC into that question. If the receiver with fewer yards after the catch also has fewer catches, I believe that it indicates that receiver had more deeper passes thrown to him and gained most of his yardage in that regard. In retrospect, the receiver with more catches probably gained most of his yards after catching shorter passes. Of course, I'm not sure of that hypothesis, but I would label the receiver with more catches as the better receiver because he found a way to gain as many yards weaving through defenses--as opposed to the guy who gained most of his yards via fewer passes thrown over it.

 

[Charles]

cooley caught more balls than any other non-WR in the NFC. not to mention 7 TD's.

sure. he is 'average'.

When did catching "more balls than any other non-WR in the NFC" equate to above average status?

Doesn't the amount of balls caught by Cooley have more to do with the Commanders lack of pass catching weapons other than Moss and Gibbs tendacies to feature a HB in his offense.

Cooley is not a game changer. All things considered (stats and level of play in 2005) Cooley didn't do enough to earn a Pro Bowl trip on a Play-off team that ran off 5 impressive wins late in the season..

"he has never consistently...."???

he just finished his second year. and you live in DC? what is your excuse?

So.........Witten just finished his 3rd season and has been to the ProBowl twice based on his level of play and stats within our offense.

I live in the DC area. I don't need any excuses. I even corrected your fellow Commander fan who listed Cooley as your 4th passing option when infact he was easily the 2nd or 3rd based on his stats within your offense.

Cooley is an average player. Accumulating receiving stats on a team with nothing behind the primary receiving threat (Moss) doesn't equate to above average. He excelled at his role, but when compared to other players at his respective position, he's average.

 

[Hostile]

did you compare jim brown to TO?

again, not saying moss is on TO's level. but he had a ton of yards last year. that counts for something.

No, I compared a ridiculous assertion about stats with a ridiculous assertion about stats.

 

[Gamebreaker]

well since the stats are almost identical, you'd have to take the WR w/ the higher ypc, that means more big plays were made from your guy

to gauge the effectiveness of a player, is to look at how many big plays one makes, but of course that is limited to certain positions such as the skill ones on O and pass-rushers and Safeties

edit: sorry, your answer is the receiver who had 85 catches for 1500 yards and 12 TDs

I don't know, I may want the other one. It's likely he had more first downs, and therefore, moved the chains more. He still averaged 15 yards per catch. Besides, anyone reciever who gains 1,500 yards probably had plenty of big plays anyway.

 

[seoulman]

Sorry, I got to disagree with Moss not going over the middle. Moss routinely went over the middle to make the tough catch on a crossing pattern. Furthermore, one of his bread and butter plays was the WR screen which he on many occassions turned into long gains. He's not just a burner that goes deep. He is very good at making people miss.

As far as Cooley vs. Witten goes, I think it's pretty much even and if there is a difference it will be marginal. BTW, I think Cooley is going to flourish in Al Saunders' system. He knows how to use a TE with Cooley's skillset (ask Gonzo).

I personally think that TO is the best receiver in the league right now. The only other receivers I put in his league are NOT on the Commanders. He's got the complete package: size, skills, speed, hands, smarts.

However, I'm not convinced that as a unit that the WR corps of the Commanders will be better than the Cowboys corps. For a couple of reasons:

1. Clinton Portis. He's a better back until Julius Jones can prove he can actually play a whole season. With Portis in the Commanders backfield, opposing teams will probably have to keep additional players in the box to keep him contained. That opens things up for the WR corps. I don't think people are devising defensive schemes to stop Jones.

2. I'm not sold on Glenn having a big year. Last year was huge for him, but I don't believe it signals a reemergence of Terry Glenn. It's been 6 years since he's had a year like that and he's going to get a whole lot less balls thrown his way now that TO is in town.

3. Al Saunders. He's been able to deliver a top 5 passing offense everywhere he's been. In KC he had only marginal receivers to work with and was able to produce very good numbers all around. He utilizes a number of 3 WR sets and will get the ball distributed.

For those of you who might bring up Mark Brunell and his durability, I personally think it will be less of an issue in Saunders' offense. Saunders' offense requires a lot more three step drops and quick releases that count on timing. Brunell will have less opportunity to be hit IMO. However, if he does, all bets are off.

 

[seoulman]

Cooley is an average player. Accumulating receiving stats on a team with nothing behind the primary receiving threat (Moss) doesn't equate to above average. He excelled at his role, but when compared to other players at his respective position, he's average.

Sorry, that's an incorrect argument. Having less weapons on offense makes it difficult for you to get good statistics because teams have to concentrate on less playmakers. The more weapons a team has on the field, the harder it is to defend and players are likely to see larger numbers.

I've got to disagree with you on Cooley. He is NOT an average player at his position. His stats compare VERY favorably to Witten's and he was able to do so when every new that other than having to double Moss, they'd have to keep an eye on him on the short routes or out of the backfield.

To me the most telling statistics for Cooley are his YAC numbers. He ranks well above Antonio Gates, Todd Heap, Alge Crumpler, AND Witten. The bottom line is that statistically he is in the top 5 best TEs in the league. I think that puts him far above average when compared to other players at his position.

 

[AsthmaField]

Sorry, I got to disagree with Moss not going over the middle. Moss routinely went over the middle to make the tough catch on a crossing pattern. Furthermore, one of his bread and butter plays was the WR screen which he on many occassions turned into long gains. He's not just a burner that goes deep. He is very good at making people miss.

I don't know about "routinely", but he did go over the middle some. He is elusive and he was able to do something with some short passes he caught, so yeah, he is a little more than a deep burner who goes deep.

As far as Cooley vs. Witten goes, I think it's pretty much even and if there is a difference it will be marginal. BTW, I think Cooley is going to flourish in Al Saunders' system.

I think Witten is the better player. He's seen two pro bowls to Cooley's none. They are the same age (Cooley is two months younger) and Witten is simply the better player. Having said that, I think Cooley is very good. He really can find soft spots in zones very well, he just has a feel for it. He blocks pretty well too. Will Saunders use him enough? With those three recievers, I wonder if he'll see the ball often enough. Still, like you hinted at, Saunders has used the TE extensively before, so he might lean on Cooley quite a bit.

He [Saunders] knows how to use a TE with Cooley's skillset (ask Gonzo).

With Cooley's skillset? Are you hinting that Gonzales has the same skillset that Cooley has?

Gonzo has twice the athletic ability that Cooley has... and half of the blocking ability. They're quite different, even though they're both good TE's.

I personally think that TO is the best receiver in the league right now. The only other receivers I put in his league are NOT on the Commanders. He's got the complete package: size, skills, speed, hands, smarts.

It's been a little while since TO has played. There's no doubt he's good. He'll have to show me that he's still as dominating as he once was though, before I annoint him as one of the best in the NFL again.

However, I'm not convinced that as a unit that the WR corps of the Commanders will be better than the Cowboys corps. For a couple of reasons:

I think you were trying to say that, as a unit the Skins WR's might be better than the Dallas WR's. Right?

I disagree with that. I think Glenn and Moss are pretty similar in what they can do on the field. Both are fast, quick and very difficult to cover. The thing is: Moss is Washington's number 1 WR and Glenn is Dallas' number 2. The "other" WR opposite those guys will be Lloyd for Washington and TO for Dallas. There's really no comparison between those two.

So, while Glenn and Moss are fairly even, the other WR in this case really seperates Dallas from Washington.

Randal El, I assume, will be the third WR. He can be effective in that role. Crayton for Dallas is our third WR, and he was very effective last year before he got hurt. Randal El and Crayton are very different type players. Randal El is shifty and versatile and Crayton is big, strong and has the best hands on the team. Both are valuable to their teams in slightly different ways.

The rookie that Dallas drafted, Skyler Green, is a lot more like Randal El. He'll return kicks like El, but he probably won't see the field very much as a WR, unless he really surprises some people or Crayton gets hurt again.

Patton is more like Crayton than El. Patton wasn't very effective last year and as a 4th WR this season, I don't look for him to do much more than provide depth.

Everything else being equal, I'd rather have the Dallas group than the Washington group.

1. Clinton Portis. He's a better back until Julius Jones can prove he can actually play a whole season. With Portis in the Commanders backfield, opposing teams will probably have to keep additional players in the box to keep him contained. That opens things up for the WR corps. I don't think people are devising defensive schemes to stop Jones.

What you're saying is that you think because of Portis, the Skins WR's will be more effective than they would if Julius were their RB. That might be true, but in talking about which unit is better, that doesn't belong, IMO. If you want to talk about their effectiveness, then it needs to be phrased that way. TO is the most talented WR on either team... but put him in a wishbone offense and he'd be the least effective if the other's were in a run and shoot offense. There are variables that will effect the play of both team's WR's, but we can't factor in all of them... so I'm strictly talking about talent that the players have.

2. I'm not sold on Glenn having a big year. Last year was huge for him, but I don't believe it signals a reemergence of Terry Glenn. It's been 6 years since he's had a year like that and he's going to get a whole lot less balls thrown his way now that TO is in town.

Glenn was having the same type of year in 2004 that he had in 2005, before he got hurt. Now, if you're questioning if Glenn will stay healthy in 2006, then I agree that we'll have to wait and see if he can stay off of the trainers table. However, wondering if he can perform up to his 2005 standards is unwarranted, IMO. He was doing it in 2004, and he did it all year in 2005. What you saw last year is what Terry Glenn does if the ball comes his way... he's an acrobatic, sure handed, quick, smart WR. He'll play very well if he stays healthy. Last year he saw almost constant double teaming (and still did very well) and this year, those double teams will go TO's way... so if anything, having TO on the team will free up Glenn to play with single coverage. Having watched Glenn closely the last couple of years... I can tell you that Glenn destroys single coverage. Personally, I can't wait to see teams gang up on TO and leave Glenn one-on-one.

It's going to be fun to watch, for Dallas fans.

Commander fans are proud to say that, historically, they have controlled TO when he played against washington. What Skins fans aren't so quick to say is that, while that is pretty much true, other players on those San Fran and Philly teams have taken advantage of all of the attention that TO got and had huge days against the Skins... and many times helped lead their team to voctory over Washington.

You guys can focus on TO and cheat Taylor over to help on him... but I'm telling you now, Glenn will have a hey-day if ya'll do that. Bledsoe and him will hook up all day long.

And that is what makes the Dallas WR corps so dangerous, IMO. Focus on TO and try to take him out of the game and Glenn will kill you. Play them straight up, and TO will eat you alive. It's a catch-22 for opposing teams. Pay too much attention to TO and Glenn and Witten and Fasano will show why the two TE set is great for creating matchup problems.

It looks like Dallas will get their yards.

3. Al Saunders. He's been able to deliver a top 5 passing offense everywhere he's been. In KC he had only marginal receivers to work with and was able to produce very good numbers all around. He utilizes a number of 3 WR sets and will get the ball distributed.

We'll see with Saunders offense and how it takes hold in DC. I'm not going to say that Saunders isn't a good addition for you guys, because I think he is. He's a very good offensive mind. However, he doen't have the same OL he had in KC and Gonzales was a true difference maker that created problems for defenses. His WR's weren't as good in KC, but I'll wait and see how he does with different personnel in DC. I think it will take a little while for the schemes to sink in and the Skins might take a while before they're back to being as effective as they were last year on offense... even with the additions of El and Lloyd.

For those of you who might bring up Mark Brunell and his durability, I personally think it will be less of an issue in Saunders' offense. Saunders' offense requires a lot more three step drops and quick releases that count on timing. Brunell will have less opportunity to be hit IMO. However, if he does, all bets are off.

I think you're right about the quick drops helping keep Brunell healthy. However, I'm not sure that Brunell is as effective on those quick drops. It seemed last year that when Brunell was most effective was when he ran out of the pocket and threw while he was scrambling around. I saw time after time last year when Brunell was flushed out of the pocket, ran around, and found Moss or Cooley for a first down. I'm not so sure taking that away from Mark is the best thing you could do for his effectiveness. He may still do that, but if he does, then the quick drops keeping him healthy don't apply and you'll have to worry about your season every time he scrambles.

Overall, I do think the Commanders improved themselves at WR and at the OC position with Saunders. How much effect will that have on the field? Time will tell. It should really be interesting to watch... and if it doesn't play out like Commander fans think it will, it should be interesting to read what they're saying.

 

[burmafrd]

Comparing Cooley to Witten of course Witten comes out ahead as regardss TE. Cooley often was a H Back not a TE. Play him strictly as TE and I will bet his stats drop. Now Saunders will not do that- but you lose something without having the blocking of a TE- and that goes for the running game. With Moss, Lloyd and Cooley doing most of the receiving, that is a very effective unit (assuming Lloyd does not start sulking). Portis forces D's to account for him which is always a good thing for the passing O. But if Portis is not as effective (i.e. Cooley not playing TE or Cooley playing H back with a 3 rd WR so no TE blocking with any regularity) then that will change and the D will concentrate more on stopping the Pass. Its always a chess game and the winner is the one that usually uses his pieces better- as long as the talent level is close. The skins have these key concerns on O: Brunnell staying healthy and Lloyd behaving himself.

 

[DallasEast]

Comparing Cooley to Witten of course Witten comes out ahead as regardss TE. Cooley often was a H Back not a TE. Play him strictly as TE and I will bet his stats drop.

Great point.

 

[burmafrd]

I am a little suprised this thread has lasted this long and gotten this big- though titling it the way I did I knew skins fans would have to be here.

 

[AsthmaField]

Cooley often was a H Back not a TE. Play him strictly as TE and I will bet his stats drop. Now Saunders will not do that- but you lose something without having the blocking of a TE- and that goes for the running game.

My understanding is that Saunders won't use an H back... so he will do that this year.. He'll play Cooley at TE only. At least that's what I've read and what Commanders fans are saying.

 

[DallasEast]

My understanding is that Saunders won't use an H back... so he will do that this year.. He'll play Cooley at TE only. At least that's what I've read and what Commanders fans are saying.

Saunders is a very good offensive coach, so I can see why Gibbs would agree to the change. I believe that Cooley's still going to a major part of Gibb's motion offense.

 

[Hostile]

I am a little suprised this thread has lasted this long and gotten this big- though titling it the way I did I knew skins fans would have to be here.

I applaud you. Been a great thread overall. Some good discussion both ways.

 

[burmafrd]

I really think Cooley will have less production if he is used strictly as a TE. Used as an H back he was able to go in motion a lot and move around. Playing TE full time he will not be doing that as much.

 

[seoulman]

With Cooley's skillset? Are you hinting that Gonzales has the same skillset that Cooley has?

Gonzo has twice the athletic ability that Cooley has... and half of the blocking ability. They're quite different, even though they're both good TE's.

First, let me say that you have a really good argument on a lot of your points. There is a really specific reason I used the term "skillset" instead of saying "same skills". Cooley has a lot of the same tools that Gonzales has, but you're right he's not as athletic. However, don't discount his athletic ability. He's a lot faster and stronger than I think people give him credit for. There is a reason why he had one of the best YAC numbers among tight ends last year. Personally, I think Cooley is a good blocker with sure hands and strong enough to bowl over a few blockers.

So, while Glenn and Moss are fairly even, the other WR in this case really seperates Dallas from Washington.

Sorry, I just can't agree with you that Glenn and Moss are even. Personally, I think that Moss is a more versatile receiver than Glenn but I suppose we can agree to disagree on this. In terms of Lloyd, comparing him to anyone on the Cowboys' squad is probably not correct. I'm not sure about the type of receiver he's going to end up being. The guy has all the athletic ability in the world to be a great receiver (yes I believe he could be a legit #1) but to me his biggest issue has been concentration and drive. He's shown in the past that he can be a bit of a headcase, but hopefully the Skins will get him in line. Without the pressure of having to be a #1, he might really surprise some folks.

There are variables that will effect the play of both team's WR's, but we can't factor in all of them... so I'm strictly talking about talent that the players have.

OK that's fair. I'll leave the running game out of this comparison. Like I said before, I think the presence of TO puts the Cowboys' receiving corps as one of the best in the league and yes, I think his presence makes them better (talent wise) than the skins.

Personally, I can't wait to see teams gang up on TO and leave Glenn one-on-one.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see until next year.

You guys can focus on TO and cheat Taylor over to help on him... but I'm telling you now, Glenn will have a hey-day if ya'll do that. Bledsoe and him will hook up all day long.

Er...that's assuming you can keep Bledsoe standing upright. Which has not really been the case for a while. As much as people talk about the offensive additions the Commanders have made, I'm MUCH more excited about the defensive additions. Andre Carter and Adam Archuleta are going to love playing the Greg Williams' defense. I'm sure that Carter is going to return to form now that he's going to be playing DE again.

However, he doen't have the same OL he had in KC and Gonzales was a true difference maker that created problems for defenses. His WR's weren't as good in KC, but I'll wait and see how he does with different personnel in DC. I think it will take a little while for the schemes to sink in and the Skins might take a while before they're back to being as effective as they were last year on offense... even with the additions of El and Lloyd.

I wouldn't knock the Commanders' OL. They are one of the better OL in the league. No one really talks about them, but yes, they are very good. Saunders will be able to do a lot with them and I don't expect it to be that long before the Skins' are clicking in the offense. You're right that Cooley is not as good as Gonzo, but bottom line is that there are other pieces that Saunders can use that he didn't have in KC to keep the passing offense clicking.

It seemed last year that when Brunell was most effective was when he ran out of the pocket and threw while he was scrambling around. I saw time after time last year when Brunell was flushed out of the pocket, ran around, and found Moss or Cooley for a first down. I'm not so sure taking that away from Mark is the best thing you could do for his effectiveness. He may still do that, but if he does, then the quick drops keeping him healthy don't apply and you'll have to worry about your season every time he scrambles.

The most effective plays for the Commanders last year tended to be the plays where Brunell rolled out to his left. Not really scrambling. Although he did show last year that he had enough gas in the tank to still make plays with his legs. However, Mark has always been a smart and efficient passer that just does not make a lot of bad throws (whether he's scrambling or standing in the pocket). I did say that I worry about the health of Brunell though. When healthy, he can definitely hurt an opposing defense. However, that's the rub. We haven't seen what Campbell can do. Reports from mini-camp are very positive and we'll see a lot of him during the preseason so I can only hope for the best. The rumors are that if Brunell goes down Collins will take the helm if it's only for a game or so, but Campbell will be prepped to take the starting job if it looks like Brunell will be out more than that.

You're right that it's going to be very interesting. I can't wait for the season to start, especially because there is going to be REAL competition in the NFC east. Nothing gets me riled up for a game more than knowing it's an NFC east matchup...especially if it's a Skins-Cowboys matchup.

 

[burmafrd]

I cannot remember a time except in the early 90's when the whole division was as good as it will be this year. The Giants were starting their post BP slide while we were on the way up; the Skins were at the end of the Gibbs road by 92, while the Eagles were not bad but not great. This year all 4 teams are legitimate playoff contenders. The only team that has to prove anything really is the birds: they have to prove that the window is not yet closed!!!

 

[Bob Sacamano]

He knows how to use a TE with Cooley's skillset (ask Gonzo).

so COoley is as talented as Gonzo now?

I don't think people are devising defensive schemes to stop Jones.

maybe not, but teams play a back such as him, one who's capable of breaking off a 50 yarder at any time, differently than they do most backs

2. I'm not sold on Glenn having a big year. Last year was huge for him, but I don't believe it signals a reemergence of Terry Glenn. It's been 6 years since he's had a year like that and he's going to get a whole lot less balls thrown his way now that TO is in town.

he may be seeing less balls than TO, but then again, he's going to be open much more often now that TO is here, and if teams start to concentrate on TO, Bledsoe is going to look for other receivers, he's already said as much, and Glenn is going to be open often

3. Al Saunders. He's been able to deliver a top 5 passing offense everywhere he's been. In KC he had only marginal receivers to work with and was able to produce very good numbers all around. He utilizes a number of 3 WR sets and will get the ball distributed.

good point about Saunder's offense, but KC's WR corp was never any good still

 

[Bob Sacamano]

The guy has all the athletic ability in the world to be a great receiver (yes I believe he could be a legit #1

I'm wondering where you guys see all this untapped, great potential in Lloyd, I believe he can be a good receiver, but great? if he's some great talent waiting to be tapped, wouldn't he have been a 1st round pick? esp. playing the WR position

but to me his biggest issue has been concentration and drive.

some players never grow out of it, Lloyd could be next in line

 

[seoulman]

so COoley is as talented as Gonzo now?

Please read the beginning of my previous post. There is a very specific reason I use the term "skillset". I did not mean to imply that Cooley has same ability of Gonzo, just that they have a similar set of skills from which to work.

But if you want to compare apples to apples, compare Gonzo's stats his second year to Cooley's stats his second year. I'd say Cooley outperformed Gonzo in EVERY meaningful statistical category.

 

[Gibbs II]

I love how the 4th WR is supposed to prove the point. Classic.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AtaEa6zIBKV15fSI8HWjMZBDubYF?slug=cr-portis063006&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


There are going to be quite a few 4 and 5 WR sets.