Are Hybrid cars the future?

thunderpimp91

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what of those without home charging capabilities?
This is the real issue EVs face. I'd recommend EVs to most people but if you are not set up to charge at home or if it's not affordable to get a unit installed at your home it should be a non starter for people. Relying 100% on public charging is not a good idea and defeats a lot of the benefits.

On the flip side though, most homes are set up to have a home charger installed at a reasonable price. I did it myself in about an hour and $200 in supplies. I know for some though they need to upgrade their breaker panel for probably $2k then have the charger wiring/install price on top of that and it starts to get ridiculous.
 

thunderpimp91

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Tax breaks. Another expense you EV fanatics don;t talk about as regards how much EVs cost.
NONE of you ever admit just how much more it all costs when you look at everything which your side is claiming is what matters; I mean carbon footprint and all that
AND once again so what if 8% of sales are EVs.
That means 92% ARE NOT
So tell me friend what trend is THAT?
THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS CANNOT AFFORD THEM.
How is a tax break an expense? Not sure I follow what you're saying there. I paid $38k for my Tesla a year ago. Just got back $7,500 in cash from my taxes this week. Had I elected to put that towards the cost of the car it would have been a $31k car.

The cost of ownership for my EV is really not that bad at all. The biggest X factor for people is going to be the cost of home charging as that will vary from situation to situation. Some people may already have a 220 outlet in their garage and its a total non issue, some it's going to be a pretty minor expense, this was my experience. For some it's a major hassle that will set them back thousands of dollars and that's an issue. Aside from that I have no real maintenance costs as there is no engine or transmission to tend to. I get my tires rotated every now and then and top off the washer fluid. That's pretty much it. I paid $60 for insurance last month, which is full coverage. I also calculated it out based on what my local eclectic company charges in kWh and it takes about $6-7 bucks to recharge my car if it's completely empty. As far as the carbon footprint people need to do their research and figure out what the bigger issue is. Is the carbon footprint greater from gas vehicles or from the combination of lithium mining, electrical use, and battery disposal? It's a complicated answer that in its current form really comes back to how long an individual EV lasts from my research. In my decision to buy an EV though it was not even a thought that crossed my mind when I purchased it, and I would assume that for the vast number of EV buyers it's not even a consideration either. It has way more to do with have a really fun car to drive, never having to worry about leaving the house early in the morning because I need to get gas before work, super convenient, minimal maintenance, loaded with technology, great warranties, etc. There are absolutely some negatives, but that's everything in life.

You're absolutely right that 92% of car sales are still gas or hybrid. But go back to just 2019 and that was 99% of sales.
EV sales went from

2019 - roughly 1% of sales (I saw a couple different numbers here but they were both in the ball park)
2020 - 1.7%
2021 - 3%
2022 - 5.8%
2023 - 7.6%

Not that hard to figure out where this is all going. Percentage of EVs sold is going up a couple percentage points every year. Right now it's more linear growth, but I have to believe at some point you see larger jumps in these numbers made as EVs become more normalized. They are dropping in price every year. Public charging is more accessible every year. More homes are getting EV stations installed in their homes, and new construction homes are having them built in. Even apartment complexes are starting to have stations added to offer to renters.
 

1942willys

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They can afford them. Get yourself a Leaf. After all, most people don't drive more than 20 miles a day.

But even if they could afford the good ones, what of those without home charging capabilities?
$28,000 for a LIMITED vehicle. Nissan Versa $17,000
 

1942willys

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How is a tax break an expense? Not sure I follow what you're saying there. I paid $38k for my Tesla a year ago. Just got back $7,500 in cash from my taxes this week. Had I elected to put that towards the cost of the car it would have been a $31k car.

The cost of ownership for my EV is really not that bad at all. The biggest X factor for people is going to be the cost of home charging as that will vary from situation to situation. Some people may already have a 220 outlet in their garage and its a total non issue, some it's going to be a pretty minor expense, this was my experience. For some it's a major hassle that will set them back thousands of dollars and that's an issue. Aside from that I have no real maintenance costs as there is no engine or transmission to tend to. I get my tires rotated every now and then and top off the washer fluid. That's pretty much it. I paid $60 for insurance last month, which is full coverage. I also calculated it out based on what my local eclectic company charges in kWh and it takes about $6-7 bucks to recharge my car if it's completely empty. As far as the carbon footprint people need to do their research and figure out what the bigger issue is. Is the carbon footprint greater from gas vehicles or from the combination of lithium mining, electrical use, and battery disposal? It's a complicated answer that in its current form really comes back to how long an individual EV lasts from my research. In my decision to buy an EV though it was not even a thought that crossed my mind when I purchased it, and I would assume that for the vast number of EV buyers it's not even a consideration either. It has way more to do with have a really fun car to drive, never having to worry about leaving the house early in the morning because I need to get gas before work, super convenient, minimal maintenance, loaded with technology, great warranties, etc. There are absolutely some negatives, but that's everything in life.

You're absolutely right that 92% of car sales are still gas or hybrid. But go back to just 2019 and that was 99% of sales.
EV sales went from

2019 - roughly 1% of sales (I saw a couple different numbers here but they were both in the ball park)
2020 - 1.7%
2021 - 3%
2022 - 5.8%
2023 - 7.6%

Not that hard to figure out where this is all going. Percentage of EVs sold is going up a couple percentage points every year. Right now it's more linear growth, but I have to believe at some point you see larger jumps in these numbers made as EVs become more normalized. They are dropping in price every year. Public charging is more accessible every year. More homes are getting EV stations installed in their homes, and new construction homes are having them built in. Even apartment complexes are starting to have stations added to offer to renters.
Sure dude you can circus carny it all you want
You can talk trends all you want
reality is that EVs are going to be a niche market for many years to come and still a TINY PERCENTAGE of cars on the road
Spin that all you want

And why am I not surprised you brush off tax breaks as NOT an expense....
 

thunderpimp91

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Sure dude you can circus carny it all you want
You can talk trends all you want
reality is that EVs are going to be a niche market for many years to come and still a TINY PERCENTAGE of cars on the road
Spin that all you want

And why am I not surprised you brush off tax breaks as NOT an expense....
Car and Driver is reporting expected EV sales much higher than I thought

"Moreover, 2024 is expected to set another new record for volume of EVs sold and their share of the total market. Colin McKerracher of Bloomberg projects 2024 EV sales in the U.S. at just under 1.9 million units, making up 13 percent of new-car purchases. This year should see fewer of the supply constraints that hobbled availability over the last four years. Depending on a host of factors, some analysts suggest overall vehicle sales could be 1 million vehicles or more higher than last year."

I was talking about maybe hitting 10% of new car sales this year for a good year, sounds like some are significantly higher. If EVs really do make up 13% of sales in 2024 the debate is over. That's more than a 60% jump and we are getting out of the joke percentages. I'm not trying to spin this at all, I own and EV but could care less what everyone else drives, I'm strictly looking at the numbers.

I'd love for you to educate me on the tax break thing though. I'm legitimately curious why that's a bad thing for me.
 

Flamma

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I love the electric viking. He's very pro EV. So if he says something you don't like, you know to take that to the bank. He's the one that said the average range loss due to freezing conditions is 29%.

As far as the other things go. Don't take future projections at face value. The Tesla Cybertruck was supposed to get like 500 miles range for under 40k. What they released wasn't even close in price or range.
 

Flamma

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And why am I not surprised you brush off tax breaks as NOT an expense....
I'm not sure what angle you're going with here, but a tax break isn't an expense. You're paying less, not more. Obviously someone else is picking up the tab.
 

Flamma

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Here in NJ they expect 51% of new cars sold to be EVs by 2027. We know that's not going to happen. Might not even be 15%.
 

morasp

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I love the electric viking. He's very pro EV. So if he says something you don't like, you know to take that to the bank. He's the one that said the average range loss due to freezing conditions is 29%.

As far as the other things go. Don't take future projections at face value. The Tesla Cybertruck was supposed to get like 500 miles range for under 40k. What they released wasn't even close in price or range.
That's true, things are pretty volatile right now. I have seen other companies saying similar things about more affordable EV models. Ford did an interview and predicted 2025 or 2026 to be the inflection point for cheaper EVs and EV sales.
 

Flamma

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That's true, things are pretty volatile right now. I have seen other companies saying similar things about more affordable EV models. Ford did an interview and predicted 2025 or 2026 to be the inflection point for cheaper EVs and EV sales.
Ford messed things up too. They had so many preorders for the Ford Lightning, then kept raising the price to where most people canceled. Ford lost money on every EV they sold. That's not a good business model.
 

thunderpimp91

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Ford messed things up too. They had so many preorders for the Ford Lightning, then kept raising the price to where most people canceled. Ford lost money on every EV they sold. That's not a good business model.
Yeah ford really screwed up their into to the EV market. The public charging infrastructure for non teslas was embarrassing and for as pro EV car as I am, trucks just seem to be not close yet. Leading the marketing campaign around the Lightning seems like a massive miss when they had the Mustang right there that could have competed domestically with Tesla.
 

morasp

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Ford messed things up too. They had so many preorders for the Ford Lightning, then kept raising the price to where most people canceled. Ford lost money on every EV they sold. That's not a good business model.
Hopefully they can chalk it up to lessons learned.
 

1942willys

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Car and Driver is reporting expected EV sales much higher than I thought

"Moreover, 2024 is expected to set another new record for volume of EVs sold and their share of the total market. Colin McKerracher of Bloomberg projects 2024 EV sales in the U.S. at just under 1.9 million units, making up 13 percent of new-car purchases. This year should see fewer of the supply constraints that hobbled availability over the last four years. Depending on a host of factors, some analysts suggest overall vehicle sales could be 1 million vehicles or more higher than last year."

I was talking about maybe hitting 10% of new car sales this year for a good year, sounds like some are significantly higher. If EVs really do make up 13% of sales in 2024 the debate is over. That's more than a 60% jump and we are getting out of the joke percentages. I'm not trying to spin this at all, I own and EV but could care less what everyone else drives, I'm strictly looking at the numbers.

I'd love for you to educate me on the tax break thing though. I'm legitimately curious why that's a bad thing for me.
Big deal. that means 87 PERCENT OF NEW CAR SALES ARE NOT EVs
as regards the taxes
you are paying for it dude
so is everyone else
but I guess that means nothing to you -you sound like someone that has never had to scrach and claw to make the rent and put food on the table like about one third of America has to
 

CalPolyTechnique

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Tax breaks. Another expense you EV fanatics don;t talk about as regards how much EVs cost.
NONE of you ever admit just how much more it all costs when you look at everything which your side is claiming is what matters; I mean carbon footprint and all that
AND once again so what if 8% of sales are EVs.
That means 92% ARE NOT
So tell me friend what trend is THAT?
THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS CANNOT AFFORD THEM.
This dude’s talking points are from 2008, luulz.
 

Iago33

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I moved to Arkansas in 2020. I have seen one Tesla here in that time. I have never seen a charger anywhere.
 

rags747

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Yeah ford really screwed up their into to the EV market. The public charging infrastructure for non teslas was embarrassing and for as pro EV car as I am, trucks just seem to be not close yet. Leading the marketing campaign around the Lightning seems like a massive miss when they had the Mustang right there that could have competed domestically with Tesla.
Mustang as an EV is nowhere close to being able to compete with a Tesla. Tesla designed from a clean sheet of paper approach, Ford/GM basically modified existing architecture. Lots of Sandy Munro engineering studies on YouTube if interested. The differences are quite striking.
 

Flamma

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I try to educate myself on EVs by watching channels that support EVs. This way if I don't like something, I know it is a legit concern.

For me road trips aren't even an issue. I don't drive 4-5 hours straight, then get back on the road again. I'm lazy **, I'll relax for an hour or two. It's how many stops that bothers me. My problem is normal daily use. Or, minor road trips where I put a lot of miles in a day. I also don't see any plus side to driving an EV when nothing is broken. Other than 0-60 times, why am I buying an EV?
 

thunderpimp91

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I try to educate myself on EVs by watching channels that support EVs. This way if I don't like something, I know it is a legit concern.

For me road trips aren't even an issue. I don't drive 4-5 hours straight, then get back on the road again. I'm lazy **, I'll relax for an hour or two. It's how many stops that bothers me. My problem is normal daily use. Or, minor road trips where I put a lot of miles in a day. I also don't see any plus side to driving an EV when nothing is broken. Other than 0-60 times, why am I buying an EV?

If you’re not in need of a new car or are not set up for home charging I absolutely wouldn’t buy an EV. IMO the home charging piece is crucial and is the biggest issue EV sales face.

If you are im the market I would at least recommend doing a test drive of one. It’s a different experience that most tend to love. The acceleration is a big piece of that but the technology in general for most of these EVs is something else. I can’t tell you how much I love the Tesla climate settings coming from a cold weather state. Are they for everyone? Absolutely not but if someone was looking at a new car I would recommend a 38k Tesla over a 28k civic any day of the week if they had the capability to charge at home.

And honestly unless you’re getting a super cheap EV that only has the 100-150 miles of range it’s really a non issue. I had the range anxiety for about a month after I bought my Tesla (250-270 miles) but I make 60-90 minute one way drives for work regularly and it’s a complete non issue, even in the winter.
 
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