BE HONEST NOW: Who would you rather have at out-side linebacker?

[superpunk]

you're kinda selling Carpenter short as a pass-rusher, one scout said he was the best pass-rusher out of the 3: him, Wimbley and Lawson, and the size and strength that will help him disengage and defeat blocks in the running game, will also give Carpenter an early advantage on Lawson when he must battle an OT at times on the pass-rush

But....Lawson>>>>>>Carpenter - right?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Actually, what I would ENJOY is some sort of factual discussion, or something to back up your reasoning more than "I feel he'll do better in NY."

I'm sure Skins fans think Lloyd is going to develop a consistent pair of hands.

I'm sure Packer fans think Woodson is all of a sudden going to develop into a decent corner.

And I might buy it, too - if there was any reason or logic behind their reasons for stating their opinions.



Sure. And it won't change the fact that the only thing backing up your opinion - is your gut.

My opinion is based on the fact that Arrington has proven something in the NFL. If you do not agree with this, then you will not agree with me.

What would you like me to do? Would you like me to provide Pro Bowl information or games where Arrington has produced? If I did this, would the arguement not be that fans elect players to Pro Bowls and that the games were not consistant enough? Didn't do it for a long enough period? Take your pick, eventually, I'm sure, you would get all of them.

If you don't agree with the original premise, then your not going to agree with the line of reasoning I employee in relation to said premise. Believe it or not, I can live with that. I may not agree but there is no stipulation that says I have to. Basically, I don't care that you don't agree with me. It will not chance my opinion and vise versa.

There are two kinds of stupid. There's the one where you get into a car and drive 200 miles an hour through traffic with no seat belt. You just hope that you don't hit anything and nothing hits you.

Then there's the kind that can not recognize the fact that no amount of effort or reasoning will chance a given situation but you continue on with it knowing full well that at the end of the day, you will have changed nothing, nor will you have accomplished a thing.

I would like to think that I am neither kind of stupid.

Ya follow?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Well Fellas, all I can say to you is that we will see. We are going to have an opportunity to see Arrington twice a year. We will see if he is all most of you claim of if he, indeed is a good NFL player.

noone's saying Arrington isn't a good NFL player, at times, he's great, but he does alot of stupid things that offset that greatness

 

[Bob Sacamano]

This aint exactly been real affraid of us and they aint exactly gotten weaker this off season. I'm watching whats going on.

have you forgotten that we improved immensely this offseason ourselves? we have Vandy at K last year, and that Giant win in OT doesn't go to OT, we left 3 points on the field in that game

 

[Bob Sacamano]

In 2005, they beat us both times and they beat us when it mattered soundly.

LAVAR DIDNT PLAY IN EITHER GAME!!

 

[superpunk]

There are two kinds of stupid. There's the one where you get into a car and drive 200 miles an hour through traffic with no seat belt. You just hope that you don't hit anything and nothing hits you.

Then there's the kind that can not recognize the fact that no amount of effort or reasoning will chance a given situation but you continue on with it knowing full well that at the end of the day, you will have changed nothing, nor will you have accomplished a thing.

I would like to think that I am neither kind of stupid.

Ya follow?

I offer.....a

 

[Clove]

Let me see the rookies play for a couple of years first. But other than that, I'm happy with who we have in Carpenter.

 

[Alexander]

you're kinda selling Carpenter short as a pass-rusher, one scout said he was the best pass-rusher out of the 3: him, Wimbley and Lawson, and the size and strength that will help him disengage and defeat blocks in the running game, will also give Carpenter an early advantage on Lawson when he must battle an OT at times on the pass-rush

Not really. I am just going on the side of caution. I hope he can be a super pass rusher. But, I'll willingly concede the pass-rush checkmark to Lawson because he has the clear track record.

But I also know we wanted more than that from our strongside LB and Carpenter has the whole package, or is at least closer to it than Lawson is right now.

 

[Alexander]

Let me see the rookies play for a couple of years first. But other than that, I'm happy with who we have in Carpenter.

How can you possibly be happy with a rookie over "proven" player like Arrington?

 

[superpunk]

My opinion is based on the fact that Arrington has proven something in the NFL. If you do not agree with this, then you will not agree with me.

Your opinion apparently entails some false or misleading interpretation of the word "proven." Because Arrington is "proven." But with him - it's not a good thing.

What would you like me to do? Would you like me to provide Pro Bowl information or games where Arrington has produced? If I did this, would the arguement not be that fans elect players to Pro Bowls and that the games were not consistant enough? Didn't do it for a long enough period? Take your pick, eventually, I'm sure, you would get all of them.

Thanks for the time savers. Looks like you know the reasons, but choose to follow your heart/gut/whatever.

 

[Stash]

Despite some people's "man-crush" on Arrington, I'll take a solid rookie with promise over an over-hyped underachiever in Arrington.

The rookies may be unproven, Arrington has proven to be overrated.

People can "speculate" all they want based on his physical skills - which are impressive - but Arrington has never played up to his hype - and the actual numbers prove it.

Arrington has shown what he can and can't do.

And factoring in his injury issues and his asking price seals the deal.

:stop:

 

[Alexander]

As I said before, I would take any proven player over any Rookie that has not proven a thing. In your eyes, Arrington is not a proven player. In my eyes, while I may not see him as living up to his potential, I certainly see him as having proven a great deal more then any player who has done nothing as of yet.

He's proven he can be inconsistent, ignorant and an athletic tease. I guess that counts as "proven". He is a risk, just as any unknown rookie would be.

All things equal, I take the "unproven" college player, who is cheaper and was well-known for his ability to stick to the plan in college.

I can break bad habits in a rookie pretty quick. That is why Coach Parcells put a premium on Bobby Carpenter's heritage and upbringing.

To do that with a veteran like Arrington who has a big-ego, is high maintenance and thinks he is bigger and better than my system? Absolutely not.

I do believe that given the chance to sign Arrington or draft a rookie, Salary aside here, we would sign Arrington.

So you changed the rules to no salary cap? And you are now implying that we would have if price weren't an option? Incredible.

I'm perfectly fine with the fact that you don't agree but in reality, you have no more proof that we would or wouldn't do that then I do. It is my opinion that we would do that. It is your opinion that we wouldn't. At the end of the day, that's all it is. Opinion Al.

I have the fact we expressed no interest as my proof. You have some suspicion that we were but price-tag scared us off, even though he signed a very palatable contract that we easily could have equaled. We would not have signed this player and weren't interested for several reasons. Price wasn't it. Jerry Jones has shown he will throw whatever money is necessary at a player if we want him.

He was a Poston client, undisciplined and not the type of player we wanted. The evidence supports this.

Regardless of what you write, Arrington has played very well in instances.

Did I ever say he hasn't, ever? I said the preponderance of his career has been mistake-filled free-lancing and I think his former coaches would attest to it. He hasn't "proven" much beyond that.

For you to say he has never shown anything is not accurate. I understand, that statement aids your position but it is not completely accurate.

Just like your argument that he was a "proven" player because the Commanders played us tough the past two years in contests he barely played in?

Am I supposed to say "touche" here?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Alexander, superpunk, the argument about buying into the system works best, Carpenter has shown that he can play within a system, and even prides himself on it, while Arrington is only interested in free-lancing, that's the only thing that really matters, because that's the only thing we were targeting for our OLB opposite Ware

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

but still, the point is that if you want someone who will fit into your system, which we do, Arrington isn't the guy you want to target, which he wasn't, same reason the Skins weren't shedding alot of tears, Greg Williams relies on players buying into the system, when LaVar left the team...

Well, I think there's a certain amount unknown here. To me, the reason Arrington left Washington was more money related then performance. I'm not trying to say that he performed up to his contract but I will say that Washington has issues with there cap. I think it's interesting the Arrington paid back money go get out of Washington. He also resigned for less money then what Washington originally offered in the restructure. He's resigned with NY to play out of position for what appears to be less money then what he would have gotten had he stayed in Washington. Something here is not right. I don't claim to know what that is but from the outside looking in, there seems to be something under the surface on this deal. I do believe that there might be something to your comments about Williams but it might not be Williams at all. It might be Gibbs. Who knows. It would be interesting to ask Wheaton for his take on this.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Well, I think there's a certain amount unknown here. To me, the reason Arrington left Washington was more money related then performance. I'm not trying to say that he performed up to his contract but I will say that Washington has issues with there cap.

the skins showed that they had no cap issues this offseason, look at the money they shelled out for Lloyd, Archuleta, and RAndle El, so I don't think the cap had much bearing on LaVar not returning, my point is that the Skins didn't show great effort in trying to retain him, and didn't shed many tears when he left, so if he was so vital to their success, and didn't make as many mistakes as we're claiming he did, I'm pretty sure they would rather have spent money on Arrington instead of giving that money to ARchuleta, so taking all of that, IMO, because he didn't fit into the system GW is employing on D, he was out, which says alot to me...

 

[Sinister]

Arrington at this point, all things being equal, is the better NFL player. Whether anybody wants to agree or not. Arrington has been to Pro Bowls while the the three rookies are well three rookies.

Do they have the ability to fit the scheme better of course, but remember when you have a player like Arrington there are many things that can be done with his abilities.

I like Carp and think that he will be fine at the Sam, but can you honestly tell me that Carp is going to be ready this year. I hope he is ready, but even if he is ready I seriously doubt he will dominate.

I have seen Arrington play and I have seen Arrington dominate in games. He often plays outside the scheme, but if used correctly he could cause havoc.

Everyone says that Arrington is overrated, and the fact is he had two knee surgeries in 13 months, but he is more athletic than Carp, bigger than Carp and has shown an ability to take over games.

At this point you guys are going to count on Carps ability to out-think his opponents, but it ain't happening through osmosis there is a learning curve for every rookie.

My main concern about Carp is will he be able to control the tight-end. I think that eventully Carp will be able to do all the things that are expected of him I just think that it may take a little time.

All things being equal give me the pro-bowl player over the rookie.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

So you changed the rules to no salary cap? And you are now implying that we would have if price weren't an option? Incredible.



I have the fact we expressed no interest as my proof. You have some suspicion that we were but price-tag scared us off, even though he signed a very palatable contract that we easily could have equaled. We would not have signed this player and weren't interested for several reasons. Price wasn't it. Jerry Jones has shown he will throw whatever money is necessary at a player if we want him.

Am I supposed to say "touche" here?

No Alexander. Go back and review the post. I said all thing even. If you missed that, that's on you. I would agree with your statement of incredible though. You fill in the blanks.

I can not say that we expressed interest or not. I recall there being stories trying to imply that there was interest but I can not say that I know of any interest. You trying to imply that this is where I'm taking this is also on you. It's simply not true. It is your doing that this is even being discussed. My personal opinion is that we probably never considered him because of the price. He was a none issue. Would we have considered him if his demands were more reasonable? Who can say. I believe that we probably would have but I have no proof of this. I am saying this so that doesn't turn into another BS, "I said this or that deal" and then have to spend 15 minutes setting the record straight. I didn't say any of that. I believe we would consider any Vet player with ability over any Rookie. That is not a stretch and it is not unique to Arrington.

Alex, if you are asking me what I think you should say, I think you'd better not ask me is what I would say. If it is your wish to say Touche, do so. It is a free board. I, on the other hand, see no point to the discussion at all. You do not agree with me. I do not agree with you. One of us will be proven wrong and one right. I am content to let the season bear out the final result.

 

[superpunk]

Arrington at this point, all things being equal, is the better NFL player. Whether anybody wants to agree or not. Arrington has been to Pro Bowls while the the three rookies are well three rookies.

So Arrington's lone cap-feather gives him the nod over three players who haven't even had the opportunity? Talk about skewed logic.

Everyone says that Arrington is overrated, and the fact is he had two knee surgeries in 13 months, but he is more athletic than Carp, bigger than Carp and has shown an ability to take over games.

They're the exact same size, and Carp is plenty athletic.

All things being equal give me the pro-bowl player over the rookie.

Larry Allen / Marco Rivera over Davin Joseph? Flozell over Ferguson? Michael Vick over Leinart?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

the skins showed that they had no cap issues this offseason, look at the money they shelled out for Lloyd, Archuleta, and RAndle El, so I don't think the cap had much bearing on LaVar not returning, my point is that the Skins didn't show great effort in trying to retain him, and didn't shed many tears when he left, so if he was so vital to their success, and didn't make as many mistakes as we're claiming he did, I'm pretty sure they would rather have spent money on Arrington instead of giving that money to ARchuleta, so taking all of that, IMO, because he didn't fit into the system GW is employing on D, he was out, which says alot to me...

Perhaps but you also need to factor in the returned money from Arrington when you consider the signings. You also have to factor in the fact that the Skins were not in a position to sign anybody before the new collective bargining agreement was put in place. All of the signings were after the fact. It does not bear on the issue of Arrington. I do not know what Washingtons internal thinking was on Arrington but the fact remains that they did offer more money then anybody else. From there, I don't know.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I like Carp and think that he will be fine at the Sam, but can you honestly tell me that Carp is going to be ready this year.

yes, Ware was ready last year, and he had to make the transition from small-school DE to OLB, Carp was an OLB in college making the transition to OLB in the pros, they do it all the time with great success

Everyone says that Arrington is overrated, and the fact is he had two knee surgeries in 13 months, but he is more athletic than Carp, bigger than Carp and has shown an ability to take over games.

I'll give you LaVar is more athletic that Carp, but Carp is 255, and I've seen maybe 2 games where LaVar has taken them over

At this point you guys are going to count on Carps ability to out-think his opponents, but it ain't happening through osmosis there is a learning curve for every rookie.

well fortunately, the learning curve for rookie LBs isn't that great, look at all the rookie LBs that have done well, esp. 1st round/2nd round ones