Boys bully a 68 year old bus monitor

[AbeBeta]

Nothing worse than an intellectually lazy do-gooder that resorts to mind reading to support his position. There is little point in discussing things with people like that.

We all make mistakes, so hopefully he will come to his senses and realize how stupid his accusation sounded.

I will give you this. You do know stupid.

Stupid like spanking a three year old who is having a temper tantrum.

Stupid.

 

[phillycard]

If someone raised their kids without a spanking, that's good, .. it is.

But for that person to criticize those that have spanked is ridiculous.

My dad raised three boys, and my sister. I don't ever remember her getting spanked but she was special, she really was/is. But I know he spanked me, with his open hand, one swat. Not with a belt or paddle, never more than once, but he could lift your heels off the ground. He got the boys' attention for sure.

He probably got me less than 10 times, mostly for doing something that may have disrespected my mother in some way, or for in some way acting a fool.

I raised both of my boys the same way.

But all four of my fathers children are married to their original spouse, have college degrees, have never been unemployed, never been arrested, are wonderful spouses and parents, and have each raised two children, each of who are college graduates, good spouses and parents, etc.

Both of my boys are rock solid men, I could not be prouder of the men they have become. My youngest is not married, but my oldest is a wonderful husband and a tremendous Dad.

I will go out on a limb and say spanking is not a bad thing.

Great post WV. About as close to a "pro-spanking" argument as could possibly be without offending someone. I agree with you 100%.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Awesome... your purely antecdotal evidence is all I need!

It's called life experience.

You should try and get some of it sometime.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Great post WV. About as close to a "pro-spanking" argument as could possibly be without offending someone. I agree with you 100%.

Thanks, but I'm not sure I want to be considered "pro-spanking". I never wanted to spank my boys. But there were times when I wanted them to know that I disapprove of what they just did, .. it is not acceptable. Either because of safety or respect to others.

The consequence was swift, and proabably hurt somewhat, .. and then it was over.
Many times they may still be wiping a tear away, but were curled up on my lap watcing TV with me while I explained why they got the smack.

The whole "time-out" thing didn't make sense to me. It seemed to be degrading, .. saying you are a bad kid, go sit in the corner with your back turned, as an outcast, .. because you are baaaad. Stay there until I let you come back. It strung out the whole situation way too long for me.

I didn't like that.

A smack on the butt says, "hey, dont' ever do what you just did." And then it's over.

My oldest boy rarely ever did anything wrong, but my youngest was completely different. He had a little attitude, and a little mean streak. My wife and I actually sat down and discussed how we would discipline him because I told her if I spanked him every time he needed it I would be spanking him all the time. He was a pistol!

Spanking too much won't work.

Plus he was a great kid with a wonderful spirit, I didn't want to break that spirit. He is funny, and his personality would light up the room, where my oldest was more laid back with a dry sense of humor.

I spent a lot of time thinking how to love him through those early years and yet still teach him discipline.

I won't tell anyone how to parent, but this worked for me. My boys are now 34 and 28, and both are outstanding men. Solid, dependable, trustworthy, .. always there for each other, and for me.

I am blessed.

 

[JBond]

Who, in this thread, made that claim?

No one did. Tilting at windmills. His ludicrous fantasies of children being beaten by people in this thread are just that, made up fantasies. He seems to get his rocks off by constantly telling everyone how he is so much smarter than everyone else.

Got to love the interweb geniuses. Sigh...

 

[JBond]

I am blessed.

Yes you are!

 

[Doomsday101]

Thanks, but I'm not sure I want to be considered "pro-spanking". I never wanted to spank my boys. But there were times when I wanted them to know that I disapprove of what they just did, .. it is not acceptable. Either because of safety or respect to others.

The consequence was swift, and proabably hurt somewhat, .. and then it was over.
Many times they may still be wiping a tear away, but were curled up on my lap watcing TV with me while I explained why they got the smack.

The whole "time-out" thing didn't make sense to me. It seemed to be degrading, .. saying you are a bad kid, go sit in the corner with your back turned, as an outcast, .. because you are baaaad. Stay there until I let you come back. It strung out the whole situation way too long for me.

I didn't like that.

A smack on the butt says, "hey, dont' ever do what you just did." And then it's over.

My oldest boy rarely ever did anything wrong, but my youngest was completely different. He had a little attitude, and a little mean streak. My wife and I actually sat down and discussed how we would discipline him because I told her if I spanked him every time he needed it I would be spanking him all the time. He was a pistol!

Spanking too much won't work.

Plus he was a great kid with a wonderful spirit, I didn't want to break that spirit. He is funny, and his personality would light up the room, where my oldest was more laid back with a dry sense of humor.

I spent a lot of time thinking how to love him through those early years and yet still teach him discipline.

I won't tell anyone how to parent, but this worked for me. My boys are now 34 and 28, and both are outstanding men. Solid, dependable, trustworthy, .. always there for each other, and for me.

I am blessed.

I see nothing wrong in how you went about disciplining your kids. My folks were the same way with me. Sure I got spankings but it was not for any little thing I did and any spanking would come with an explanation. Spanking will get your attention very quickly and you learn.

In terms of my relationship with my parents we are a very close family. I see them often, heck every sat I play golf with my dad, I go to their house to watch the cowboys games even use 1 week of vacation to travel with them this year we will go to Yellowstone for a week. So this notion that spanking will cause resentment or a child to become violent is a load a BS.

What gets me is those who try to make spankings as if a child is being beaten, there is a big difference.

 

[WV Cowboy]

What gets me is those who try to make spankings as if a child is being beaten, there is a big difference.

B I G !

 

[phillycard]

Thanks, but I'm not sure I want to be considered "pro-spanking". I never wanted to spank my boys. But there were times when I wanted them to know that I disapprove of what they just did, .. it is not acceptable. Either because of safety or respect to others.

WV, my bad. I wasn't trying to say you were pro spanking, thus the quotes, but Abe seems to be adamant at painting every parent who spanks with the same brush as lazy, irresponsible and unloving. I just wanted to give you kudos for recognizing that there may be occasions where it's called for. I myself use it as an absolute last resort.

 

[ethiostar]

Thanks, but I'm not sure I want to be considered "pro-spanking". I never wanted to spank my boys. But there were times when I wanted them to know that I disapprove of what they just did, .. it is not acceptable. Either because of safety or respect to others.

The consequence was swift, and proabably hurt somewhat, .. and then it was over.
Many times they may still be wiping a tear away, but were curled up on my lap watcing TV with me while I explained why they got the smack.

The whole "time-out" thing didn't make sense to me. It seemed to be degrading, .. saying you are a bad kid, go sit in the corner with your back turned, as an outcast, .. because you are baaaad. Stay there until I let you come back. It strung out the whole situation way too long for me.

I didn't like that.

A smack on the butt says, "hey, dont' ever do what you just did." And then it's over.

My oldest boy rarely ever did anything wrong, but my youngest was completely different. He had a little attitude, and a little mean streak. My wife and I actually sat down and discussed how we would discipline him because I told her if I spanked him every time he needed it I would be spanking him all the time. He was a pistol!

Spanking too much won't work.

Plus he was a great kid with a wonderful spirit, I didn't want to break that spirit. He is funny, and his personality would light up the room, where my oldest was more laid back with a dry sense of humor.

I spent a lot of time thinking how to love him through those early years and yet still teach him discipline.

I won't tell anyone how to parent, but this worked for me. My boys are now 34 and 28, and both are outstanding men. Solid, dependable, trustworthy, .. always there for each other, and for me.

I am blessed.

Your boys sound like good men, WV. Mine are young and I look forward to see them grow up before my eyes and I hope they become loving, respectful, caring, and responsible adults like my nieces and nephews.

Timeout works for my son. We have a little nook in the living room and he has to stay there for a few minutes until he calms down and is ready to listen to what we have to say to him. When he gets to a point where he is oblivious to everything around him (my wife and I jokingly say he has gone to 'the dark side'), timeout serves as a way to calm him down without any distractions so we can explain what he did wrong. We also try to use the timeout to get him to 'think' about what he did wrong and what the consequences of his action are. It works for him most of the time. It works for most things that we can afford to be patient about. In other words, mistakes that he can repeat with consequences that aren't too sever or detrimental to himself or anybody else.

I have given him a firm swat on the butt before. Once because what he did, running into the street, was so dangerous that we couldn't afford for it to happen again (we had worked on the appropriate behavior when he is on or crossing the street for a good part of a year by this time). It wasn't something that we can take a chance on happening because the next time he does it he may be killed or severely disabled. Of course, I got his attention and spent a good amount of time afterwords talking about his actions, the possible consequences and the reason why I had to slap him on the butt. As always with any other forms of discipline, I made sure that he understood that I loved him and that I always will, hugged and had a great time working on a project (building a pirate ship) together the rest of the day.

 

[WV Cowboy]

WV, my bad. I wasn't trying to say you were pro spanking, thus the quotes, but Abe seems to be adamant at painting every parent who spanks with the same brush as lazy, irresponsible and unloving. I just wanted to give you kudos for recognizing that there may be occasions where it's called for. I myself use it as an absolute last resort.

Oh, .. no no no, not 'your bad', I knew what you meant, .. thanks.

I knew you agreed and were paying me a compliment.

Like you, it wasn't so much a last resort, but just rarely needed. But sometimes it was.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Your boys sound like good men, WV. Mine are young and I look forward to see them grow up before my eyes and I hope they become loving, respectful, caring, and responsible adults like my nieces and nephews.

...

As always with any other forms of discipline, I made sure that he understood that I loved him and that I always will, hugged and had a great time working on a project (building a pirate ship) together the rest of the day.

Sounds great Ethio, .. you have beautiful kids.

 

[ethiostar]

Sounds great Ethio, .. you have beautiful kids.

Thank you!

 

[ethiostar]

WV, my bad. I wasn't trying to say you were pro spanking, thus the quotes, but Abe seems to be adamant at painting every parent who spanks with the same brush as lazy, irresponsible and unloving. I just wanted to give you kudos for recognizing that there may be occasions where it's called for. I myself use it as an absolute last resort.

Here is a reasonable a well balanced summary of the issue. The article summarizes a research finding by an influential scholar on the topic including caveats by the author. It then provides responses from other scholars who do not share the same views by the author. What researchers on both sides of the debate agree with is their stance against sever forms of physical punishment.

You can find it via the link below but I also have included the entire text here.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx

June 26, 2002

Is Corporal Punishment an Effective Means of Discipline?

Corporal punishment leads to more immediate compliant behavior in children, but is also associated with physical abuse. Should parents be counseled for or against spanking?

WASHINGTON — Corporal punishment remains a widely used discipline technique in most American families, but it has also been a subject of controversy within the child development and psychological communities. In a large-scale meta-analysis of 88 studies, psychologist Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff, PhD, of the National Center for Children in Poverty at Columbia University, looked at both positive and negative behaviors in children that were associated with corporal punishment. Her research and commentaries on her work are published in the July issue of Psychological Bulletin, published by the American Psychological Association.


While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).


Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.


The two largest effect sizes (strongest associations) were immediate compliance by the child and physical abuse of the child by the parent. Gershoff believes that these two strongest associations model the complexity of the debate around corporal punishment.


"That these two disparate constructs should show the strongest links to corporal punishment underlines the controversy over this practice. There is general consensus that corporal punishment is effective in getting children to comply immediately while at the same time there is caution from child abuse researchers that corporal punishment by its nature can escalate into physical maltreatment," Gershoff writes.


But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.


"The act of corporal punishment itself is different across parents - parents vary in how frequently they use it, how forcefully they administer it, how emotionally aroused they are when they do it, and whether they combine it with other techniques. Each of these qualities of corporal punishment can determine which child-mediated processes are activated, and, in turn, which outcomes may be realized," Gershoff concludes.


The meta-analysis also demonstrates that the frequency and severity of the corporal punishment matters. The more often or more harshly a child was hit, the more likely they are to be aggressive or to have mental health problems.


While the nature of the analyses prohibits causally linking corporal punishment with the child behaviors, Gershoff also summarizes a large body of literature on parenting that suggests why corporal punishment may actually cause negative outcomes for children. For one, corporal punishment on its own does not teach children right from wrong. Secondly, although it makes children afraid to disobey when parents are present, when parents are not present to administer the punishment those same children will misbehave.


In commentary published along with the Gershoff study, George W. Holden, PhD, of the University of Texas at Austin, writes that Gershoff's findings "reflect the growing body of evidence indicating that corporal punishment does no good and may even cause harm." Holden submits that the psychological community should not be advocating spanking as a discipline tool for parents.


In a reply to Gershoff, researchers Diana Baumrind, PhD (Univ. of CA at Berkeley), Robert E. Larzelere, PhD (Nebraska Medical Center), and Philip Cowan, PhD (Univ.of CA at Berkeley), write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment.


"The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."


Baumrind et al. suggest that those parents whose emotional make-up may cause them to cross the line between appropriate corporal punishment and physical abuse should be counseled not to use corporal punishment as a technique to discipline their children. But, that other parents could use mild to moderate corporal punishment effectively. "The fact that some parents punish excessively and unwisely is not an argument, however, for counseling all parents not to punish at all."


In her reply to Baumrind et al., Gershoff states that excessive corporal punishment is more likely to be underreported than overreported and that the possibility of negative effects on children caution against the use of corporal punishment.


"Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use," Gershoff writes.

The a link to the original research article can be found on the website or here...

• Corporal Punishment by Parents and Associated Child Behaviors and Experiences (PDF, 879KB)

You can also access the response paper by Baumrind etal. on the website or click on the link below

• Ordinary Physical Punishment (PDF, 108KB)

 

[phillycard]

Here is a reasonable a well balanced summary of the issue. The article summarizes a research finding by an influential scholar on the topic including caveats by the author. It then provides responses from other scholars who do not share the same views by the author. What researchers on both sides of the debate agree with is their stance against sever forms of physical punishment.

You can find it via the link below but I also have included the entire text here.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx

The a link to the original research article can be found on the website or here...

• Corporal Punishment by Parents and Associated Child Behaviors and Experiences (PDF, 879KB)

You can also access the response paper by Baumrind etal. on the website or click on the link below

• Ordinary Physical Punishment (PDF, 108KB)

Thanks ethiostar. I did a paper on spanking vs non-spanking in college. There's a lot of info out there.

 

[ethiostar]

Thanks ethiostar. I did a paper on spanking vs non-spanking in college. There's a lot of info out there.

If you don't mind me asking, what was/were the results of your paper?

You can PM me if you don't want to post it here.

 

[AbeBeta]

No one did. Tilting at windmills. His ludicrous fantasies of children being beaten by people in this thread are just that, made up fantasies. He seems to get his rocks off by constantly telling everyone how he is so much smarter than everyone else.

Got to love the interweb geniuses. Sigh...

Right.

Even the paper that Ethiostar posted below notes that one of the strongest links found was between spanking and more abusive behaviors.

But hey, you continue to hit those children! That'll teach them great lessons about how people who love you should treat you.

 

[JBond]

Right.

Even the paper that Ethiostar posted below notes that one of the strongest links found was between spanking and more abusive behaviors.

But hey, you continue to hit those children! That'll teach them great lessons about how people who love you should treat you.

Blah, blah ,blah.....Stop being a drama queen and get over yourself already.

When you get some real world experience come back and talk. Go see my thread about the 10 year old and you will find out a little about me.

 

[ethiostar]

Blah, blah ,blah.....Stop being a drama queen and get over yourself already.

When you get some real world experience come back and talk. Go see my thread about the 10 year old and you will find out a little about me.

A different research showed a strong link between drinking alcoholic beverages and alcoholism. Researchers concluded that individuals who consume alcohol are more likely to become alcoholic compared to individuals who consume such beverages as water, juice, and soda. Based on these findings, a ban on alcohol is being proposed by the researchers and those who agree with them. Furthermore, they are encouraging concerned citizens to accuse those who they see drinking alcohol as being alcoholics, wife beaters (masochistic, if they happen to be female), and probably those types of people who never edge their lawns.

 

[JBond]

A different research showed a strong link between drinking alcoholic beverages and alcoholism. Researchers concluded that individuals who consume alcohol are more likely to become alcoholic compared to individuals who consume such beverages as water, juice, and soda. Based on these findings, a ban on alcohol is being proposed by the researchers and those who agree with them. Furthermore, they are encouraging concerned citizens to accuse those who they see drinking alcohol as being alcoholics, wife beaters, and probably those types of people who never edge their lawns.

:laugh2: Well played sir!