Boys bully a 68 year old bus monitor

[CanadianCowboysFan]

If you've read any of his post history you know that what you're feeling is a fact.






It's not surprising that this particular poster doesn't understand that.




If I'd acted like that toward anyone when I was a kid my mother and father would have beaten my *** like I deserved.


I was never disrespectful like that to people when I was growing up and *GASP* I never had trouble making friends or having people like me.


Funny how not being a giant ******bag works that way.

funny I see you as one, go figure

 

[AbeBeta]

I didn't read every thread I guess, so I'm not sure why you chose 3 yrs old since I didn't reference that age. I would agree, 3 is too young. But each kid is different. If I sensed a willful disobdience, meaning they were purposely doing something they knew I did not approve of, I would let them know it was not acceptable.

I might give a little knock with a knuckle one time on top of the head to get their attention, or a little flip on the back of the earlob, ... sometimes I might squeeze the shoulder muscle between the neck and shoulder. Nothing rough or more than once, but just to get their attention.

That was in reference to someone in the thread who advocated for spanking their 3 year old.

That is a stretch, .. I gave you many examples of what my father did and what I did and it never escalated, ever.

On the other side of that coin, I could even see a person who was not spanking, (because society says not to), but secretly wished they could at times, lose patience and lash out when a child pushed their patience.

Just because it never escalated with your father does not mean that spanking isn't a first step to more severe forms of punishment. For example, the person who spanks a three year old -- what are they going to do when that kid is older and a swat on the butt doesn't work any more? They've engaged in being lazy disciplinarians for so long that they may not have developed any other ways to deal with disobedience.

I won't tell anyone how to parent, but I think most boys need correction. I had two brothers, two sons, and have coached hundreds of other boys.

I was very ornary growing up, I got paddled in school every year except 5th grade. (in love with my teacher) I got paddled and was still ornary, .. I can't imagine what I might have turned out like had I known they would not or could not touch me.

Oh I totally agree that children -- most often boys -- need correction. But the idea that physical punishment is the only way to correct those behaviors is what I reject. Of course, you have to ask where those bad behaviors generate -- what I see is very often that bad behavior is modeled by parents. Parents often teach the child the bad behaviors by example then punish them for what they learned. Again, WV, I'm not saying that is what you or your parents did -- but what I am getting at is that the behaviors that lead to paddling often generate with the parent. It sure must be confusing for a kid to try to get smacked for imitating their pop.

 

[ethiostar]

Oh I totally agree that children -- most often boys -- need correction. But the idea that physical punishment is the only way to correct those behaviors is what I reject.

Who, in this thread, made that claim?

 

[AbeBeta]

I see that you expanded on your earlier post.

Whether or not you interpret an open hand smack on the bootie every now and then as physical violence and abuse rather than an acceptable parental disciplinary measure is definitely shaped by societal influences, in other words, culture.

That's why in my earlier post I included Westerners from an older generation, say 50 or 60 years ago. For them a smack in the butt was not considered physical violence and abuse. Society didn't define it that way back then. Your definition is a much recent one.

Your argument still makes no sense. The child experiencing the spanking is not going to have some cultural influence bearing down on them that determines whether that is abuse or not. In particular, the child is not going to know whether the actions are viewed as acceptable by society. The family is a far stronger influence than the culture in this case. If beatings are normal in a family, it doesn't matter if that family lives in the US or in Timbuktu.

And you should probably go and read some of those publications you directed me to - nothing there remotely suggests that there are cultural determinants of how physical abuse affects brain development

 

[AbeBeta]

Who, in this thread, made that claim?

Anyone who engages in spanking is making that determination. There are obviously some behaviors that are seen as extreme enough to warrant physical punishment. That suggests that other tactics aren't going to work.

Either that or they are a lazy parent who fails to use other strategies and just goes right to the spanking. Which, to me, means they have poor parenting skills and their children are suffering from the parent's failures.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Pour on the love, ... sprinkle on the discipline.

Shout praise, ... whisper criticism.

 

[ethiostar]

Your argument still makes no sense. The child experiencing the spanking is not going to have some cultural influence bearing down on them that determines whether that is abuse or not. In particular, the child is not going to know whether the actions are viewed as acceptable by society. The family is a far stronger influence than the culture in this case. If beatings are normal in a family, it doesn't matter if that family lives in the US or in Timbuktu.

And you should probably go and read some of those publications you directed me to - nothing there remotely suggests that there are cultural determinants of how physical abuse affects brain development

I'm done with this discussion.

Anyone who engages in spanking is making that determination. There are obviously some behaviors that are seen as extreme enough to warrant physical punishment. That suggests that other tactics aren't going to work.

Either that or they are a lazy parent who fails to use other strategies and just goes right to the spanking. Which, to me, means they have poor parenting skills and their children are suffering from the parent's failures.

You do realize that you're calling a good portion of posters here who are parents and who don't agree with you as lazy with poor parenting skills, right? Moreover, you are characterizing the parents of most posters here as such as well.

Nice talking to you, and thank you for enlightening us with your learned ways.

 

[AbeBeta]

I'm done with this discussion.

You do realize that you're calling a good portion of posters here who are parents and who don't agree with you as lazy with poor parenting skills, right? Moreover, you are characterizing the parents of most posters here as such as well.

Nice talking to you, and thank you for enlightening us with your learned ways.

And you are enabling them.

 

[ethiostar]

And you are enabling them.

Wow..... A little conceited, aren't we?

I'm really tired of this discussion. But since I have talked about research articles that look at culture as a moderator for this issue, i feel obligated to provide you with some evidence.

Here is a research article by a team of scholars from many countries.

Physical Discipline and Children’s Adjustment: Cultural Normativeness
as a Moderator

Jennifer E. Lansford, Duke University; Lei Chang, Chinese University of Hong Kong; Kenneth A. Dodge and Patrick S. Malone, Duke University; Paul Oburu and Kerstin Palme´rus, Go¨teborg University; Dario Bacchini, University of Naples; Concetta Pastorelli and Anna Silvia Bombi, Rome University ‘‘La Sapienza’’; Arnaldo Zelli, Istituto Universitario di Scienze Motorie; Sombat Tapanya, Chiang Mai University; Nandita Chaudhary, University of Delhi; Kirby Deater-Deckard, University of Oregon; Beth Manke, California State University; Naomi Quinn, Duke University.

Child Development, November/December 2005, Volume 76, Number 6, Pages 1234 – 1246

Abstract
Interviews were conducted with 336 mother–child dyads (children's ages ranged from 6 to 17 years; mothers' ages ranged from 20 to 59 years) in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and Thailand to examine whether normativeness of physical discipline moderates the link between mothers' use of physical discipline and children's adjustment. Multilevel regression analyses revealed that physical discipline was less strongly associated with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived normativeness, but physical discipline was also associated with more adverse outcomes regardless of its perceived normativeness. Countries with the lowest use of physical discipline showed the strongest association between mothers' use and children's behavior problems, but in all countries higher use of physical discipline was associated with more aggression and anxiety.

Here is an excerpt from the discussion section of the article.

Excerpt (Page 1242)
If cultural normativeness and acceptance of a discipline strategy contribute to children’s perception of their parents’ use of it as being indicative of ‘‘good’’ and caring parenting, there may be less of an association between that type of discipline and children’s adjustment problems. However, if children do not perceive that type of discipline as being indicative of good parenting (perhaps because it is not culturally normative), they may associate being disciplined in that manner with being rejected by their parents, which could be related to higher levels of child adjustment problems. Thus, it makes sense that mothers’ use of physical discipline was related less strongly to children’s aggression and anxiety when the child perceived the discipline strategy as being culturally normative than when the child did not. Caution must be exercised in applying these findings, however, because despite the attenuated link, more frequent use of physical discipline was associated with more adjustment problems, even when it was perceived as being normative.

They seem to be making a distinction between the occasional smack on the backside and a more persistent form of physical discipline. A distinction that you are either not willing or unable to make regardless of what everyone has said in this thread.

Note also the reference by the authors to children's perception of parents who employ physical discipline as one the tools as 'good' and 'caring' in those cultural contexts where it is an acceptable form of discipline. In fact, other research has shown that, in similar contexts, children characterize parents as uncaring and neglectful, if they didn't get a spanking as children when they knew they deserved it. That is because, within the cultural milieu, that is what a good and caring parent is expected to do.

Moreover, since the US is a multicultural society, you don't have to look for other countries for a comparative research. Below are a couple of articles that have done just that.

Physical discipline among African American and European American mothers: Links to children's externalizing behaviors.

Deater-Deckard, Kirby; Dodge, Kenneth A.; Bates, John E.; Pettit, Gregory S.



Developmental Psychology, Vol 32(6), Nov 1996, 1065-1072.

Abstract
The aim of this study was to test whether the relation between physical discipline and child aggression was moderated by ethnic-group status. A sample of 466 European American and 100 African American children from a broad range of socioeconomic levels were followed from kindergarten through 3rd grade. Mothers reported their use of physical discipline in interviews and questionnaires, and mothers, teachers, and peers rated children's externalizing problems annually. The interaction between ethnic status and discipline was significant for teacher- and peer-rated externalizing scores; physical discipline was associated with higher externalizing scores, but only among European American children. These findings provide evidence that the link between physical punishment and child aggression may be culturally specific

Ethnic differences in the link between physical discipline and later
adolescent externalizing behaviors

Jennifer E. Lansford, Kirby Deater-Deckard, Kenneth A. Dodge, John E. Bates, and Gregory S. Pettit


J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2004 May ; 45(4): 801–812
Results—A series of hierarchical linear regressions controlling for parents' marital status, socioeconomic status, and child temperament revealed significant interactions between physical discipline during the child's first five years of life and race in the prediction of 3 of the 7 adolescent externalizing outcomes assessed and significant interactions between physical discipline during grades 6 and 8 and race in the prediction of all 7 adolescent externalizing outcomes. Regression slopes showed that the experience of physical discipline at each time point was related to higher levels of subsequent externalizing behaviors for European American adolescents but lower levels of externalizing behaviors for African American adolescents.

Conclusions—There are race differences in long-term effects of physical discipline on externalizing behaviors problems. Different ecological niches may affect the manner in which parents use physical discipline, the meaning that children attach to the experience of physical discipline, and its effects on the adjustment of children and adolescents.

Do yourself a favor and try to broaden your horizon a little bit and consider the effect of culture to whatever issue you examine. Psychology has been very euro-centric since its inception and it is just now that, as a discipline, starting to realize how much culture moderates perceived psychological processes.

I'm done with this. Really, I'm serious this time! lol

Good luck!

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I'm done with this discussion.



You do realize that you're calling a good portion of posters here who are parents and who don't agree with you as lazy with poor parenting skills, right? Moreover, you are characterizing the parents of most posters here as such as well.

Nice talking to you, and thank you for enlightening us with your learned ways.

problem is, most on here do the same and call those that don't use physical discipline etc bad parents who aren't teaching respect and who will ultimately be at fault if their tots call some overweight woman fat.

 

[ethiostar]

problem is, most on here do the same and call those that don't use physical discipline etc bad parents who aren't teaching respect and who will ultimately be at fault if their tots call some overweight woman fat.

ummmmmmmmmmmmm...........what?

 

[YosemiteSam]

bad parents who aren't teaching respect

From some of the stuff you said you do concerning women, you have no business talk about "teaching respect".

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

From some of the stuff you said you do concerning women, you have no business talk about "teaching respect".

and what might those comments be?

 

[AbeBeta]

Wow..... A little conceited, aren't we?

I'm really tired of this discussion. But since I have talked about research articles that look at culture as a moderator for this issue, i feel obligated to provide you with some evidence.

Here is a research article by a team of scholars from many countries.

Here is an excerpt from the discussion section of the article.

They seem to be making a distinction between the occasional smack on the backside and a more persistent form of physical discipline. A distinction that you are either not willing or unable to make regardless of what everyone has said in this thread.

You have clearly not read this article -- this article focuses on perceptions of the use and impact of physical discipline. This has nothing to do with neuroscience.

Quite telling in the results is that cultures where there were HIGH norms of physical punishment consistently produced bad outcomes. In countries where the norm was low amounts of physical discipline, the outcomes were only bad for those kids who were physically punished.

Note also the reference by the authors to children's perception of parents who employ physical discipline as one the tools as 'good' and 'caring' in those cultural contexts where it is an acceptable form of discipline. In fact, other research has shown that, in similar contexts, children characterize parents as uncaring and neglectful, if they didn't get a spanking as children when they knew they deserved it. That is because, within the cultural milieu, that is what a good and caring parent is expected to do.

And that is something that has bad outcomes for children -- regardless of whether the children think their parents are caring for doing so.

Moreover, since the US is a multicultural society, you don't have to look for other countries for a comparative research. Below are a couple of articles that have done just that.

Both of these studies are trumped by the 11,000 person longitudinal work I posted earlier. Gee, you can base your conclusions on large samples -- or focus on a comparatively tiny sample (100 African Americans!) (the first study). In the second study again, tiny sample of 74 African Americans.

Do yourself a favor and try to broaden your horizon a little bit and consider the effect of culture to whatever issue you examine. Psychology has been very euro-centric since its inception and it is just now that, as a discipline, starting to realize how much culture moderates perceived psychological processes.

I'm done with this. Really, I'm serious this time! lol

Good luck!

You might do yourself a favor by not spouting the ridiculous Psych 101 material that you learned as a Freshman about how psychology (which is highly neuroscience focused in modern times) is Eurocentric. That logic may have held 30 years ago but it absolutely not correct any more. You sound like a 1970s textbook.

 

[ethiostar]

You have clearly not read this article -- this article focuses on perceptions of the use and impact of physical discipline. This has nothing to do with neuroscience.

Maybe you're having a hard time reading.

Multilevel regression analyses revealed that physical discipline was less strongly associated with adverse child outcomes in conditions of greater perceived normativeness.

That is not perception. That is a fact according to the study. In other words, when the culture perceives physical discipline as a norm, the association between this form of discipline and adverse child outcome is not as strong. In sum, culture moderates the association between the two.

If cultural normativeness and acceptance of a discipline strategy contribute to children’s perception of their parents’ use of it as being indicative of ‘‘good’’ and caring parenting, there may be less of an association between that type of discipline and children’s adjustment problems. However, if children do not perceive that type of discipline as being indicative of good parenting (perhaps because it is not culturally normative), they may associate being disciplined in that manner with being rejected by their parents, which could be related to higher levels of child adjustment problems.

If you grow up in a time and place in which a smack on the butt is considered to be abuse and undue physical violence, to use your words, you are more likely to have child adolescent adjustment problems. On the other hand, if you grow up in a time and place in which a smack on the butt is an acceptable form of discipline, not so much.

Once again, the meaning (based on cultural influences/societal expectations) that children attach to the experience of physical discipline, affects the adjustment of children and adolescents.

Bye now!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Lets everybody just relax here. No need to start bringing things into the conversation that will only amplify harsh feelings towards one another. Topic discussion is OK. Strong feelings on the subject are OK but lets don't intentionally try and escalate beyond that. Just a friendly reminder folks.

ABQ

 

[AbeBeta]

Maybe you're having a hard time reading.

That is not perception. That is a fact according to the study. In other words, when the culture perceives physical discipline as a norm, the association between this form of discipline and adverse child outcome is not as strong. In sum, culture moderates the association between the two.

Mother's ratings of normativeness -- that's a PERCEPTION. Go look up what that word means. The authors use it 100s of times in their article to qualify their findings.

If you grow up in a time and place in which a smack on the butt is considered to be abuse and undue physical violence, to use your words, you are more likely to have child adolescent adjustment problems. On the other hand, if you grow up in a time and place in which a smack on the butt is an acceptable form of discipline, not so much.

Once again, the meaning (based on cultural influences/societal expectations) that children attach to the experience of physical discipline, affects the adjustment of children and adolescents.

Bye now!

Again, you are not reading the article correctly. If you grew up in a time and place where a smack on the butt is normative -- you tend to have greater negative outcomes. Particularly in terms of aggressiveness -- which was the original point in the thread.

If you grew up somewhere that it was not normative but you got hit anyway, your outcomes look just like those in the high normative abuse cultures.

The authors clearly note that in the high normative countries, other norms likely expose those kids who weren't hit by their parents to other forms of aggression/violence.

All of which are entirely in line with the fact that exposure to violence/abuse affects brain development. It doesn't matter where it is happening, the result is the same - particularly when you look at effects that relate to aggression.

 

[ethiostar]

Mother's ratings of normativeness -- that's a PERCEPTION. Go look up what that word means. The authors use it 100s of times in their article to qualify their findings.


Again, you are not reading the article correctly. If you grew up in a time and place where a smack on the butt is normative -- you tend to have greater negative outcomes. Particularly in terms of aggressiveness -- which was the original point in the thread.

If you grew up somewhere that it was not normative but you got hit anyway, your outcomes look just like those in the high normative abuse cultures.

The authors clearly note that in the high normative countries, other norms likely expose those kids who weren't hit by their parents to other forms of aggression/violence.

All of which are entirely in line with the fact that exposure to violence/abuse affects brain development. It doesn't matter where it is happening, the result is the same - particularly when you look at effects that relate to aggression.

:laugh2:

Wow.....ok

You want to make a direct link between any form or level of spanking and aggression but it's not just the case according to many scholars. There are many contextual factors that moderate that link, in addition to culture, frequency and severity of spanking, etc...

Toward a Developmental-Contextual Model of the Effects of Parental Spanking on Children's Aggression



Marjorie Lindner Gunnoe, PhD; Carrie Lea Mariner, MA
Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151(8):768-775.
ABSTRACT

Objective: To challenge the application of an unqualified social learning model to the study of spanking, positing instead a developmental-contextual model in which the effects of spanking depend on the meaning children ascribe to spanking.
Design: Population-based survey data from 1112 children aged 4 to 11 years in the National Survey of Families and Households. Controlled for several family and child factors including children's baseline aggression.
Main Outcome Measures: Schoolyard fights and antisocial scores on the Behavior Problems Index at the 5-year follow-up.
Results: Structural equation modeling yielded main effects (P≤.05, change in χ2) of children's age and race; spanking predicted fewer fights for children aged 4 to 7 years and for children who are black and more fights for children aged 8 to 11 years and for children who are white. Regression analyses within subgroups yielded no evidence that spanking fostered aggression in children younger than 6 years and supported claims of increased aggression for only 1 subgroup: 8- to 11-year-old white boys in single-mother families (P≤.05, F test).
Conclusions: For most children, claims that spanking teaches aggression seem unfounded. Other preventive effects and harmful effects of spanking may occur depending on the child and the family context. Further efforts to identify moderators of the effects of spanking on children's adjustment are necessary.Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775.

Physical Discipline and Behavior Problems in African American, European American, and Hispanic Children: Emotional Support as a Moderator



Vonnie C. McLoyd, Julia Smith
Journal of Marriage and Family Volume 64, Issue 1, pages 40–53, February 2002
Using data collected over a 6-year period on a sample of 1,039 European American children, 550 African American children, and 401 Hispanic children from the children of the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, this study assessed whether maternal emotional support of the child moderates the relation between spanking and behavior problems. Children were 4–5 years of age in the first of 4 waves of data used (1988, 1990, 1992, 1994). At each wave, mothers reported their use of spanking and rated their children's behavior problems. Maternal emotional support of the child was based on interviewer observations conducted as part of the Home Observation for Measurement of the Environment. For each of the 3 racial-ethnic groups, spanking predicted an increase in the level of problem behavior over time, controlling for income-needs ratio and maternal emotional support. Maternal emotional support moderated the link between spanking and problem behavior. Spanking was associated with an increase in behavior problems over time in the context of low levels of emotional support, but not in the context of high levels of emotional support. This pattern held for all 3 racial-ethnic groups

Child outcomes of nonabusive and customary physical punishment by parents: An updated literature review
Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review
Robert E. Larzelere
Volume 3, Number 4 (2000), 199-221
Abstract

This article updates the only previous systematic literature review of child outcomes of nonabusive and customary physical punishment by parents. The outcomes differ by methodologic, child, and subcultural factors as well as by how the physical punishment was used. All six studies that used clinical samples (including four randomized clinical studies) and all three sequential-analysis studies found beneficial outcomes, such as reduced noncompliance and fighting, primarily when nonabusive spanking was used to back up milder disciplinary tactics in 2- to 6-year olds. Five of eight longitudinal studies that controlled for initial child misbehavior found predominantly detrimental outcomes of spanking. However, those detrimental outcomes were primarily due to overly frequent use of physical punishment. Furthermore, apparently detrimental outcomes have been found for every alternative disciplinary tactic when investigated with similar analyses. Such detrimental associations of frequent use of any disciplinary tactic may be due to residual confounding from initial child misbehavior. Specific findings suggest discriminations between effective and counterproductive physical punishment with young children. More research is needed to clarify the role of spanking and alternative disciplinary tactics in control system aspects of parental discipline.

Your brain on culture

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2010/11/neuroscience.aspx

By Beth Azar
November 2010, Vol 41, No. 10



The burgeoning field of cultural neuroscience is finding that culture influences brain development, and perhaps vice versa.
When an American thinks about whether he is honest, his brain activity looks very different than when he thinks about whether another person is honest, even a close relative. That’s not true for Chinese people. When a Chinese man evaluates whether he is honest, his brain activity looks almost identical to when he is thinking about whether his mother is honest.

“Cultural neuroscience gives us a window into how much the brain can be changed by the environment,” says University of Texas at Dallas psychologist Denise C. Park, PhD, who has conducted several cultural neuroscience studies. “It will deepen our understanding of how environment and beliefs can shape cognitive function.”

 

[AbeBeta]

:laugh2:

Wow.....ok

You want to make a direct link between any form or level of spanking and aggression but it's not just the case according to many scholars. There are many contextual factors that moderate that link, in addition to culture, frequency and severity of spanking, etc...

Nice re-direct. You completely misunderstood the article you read (likely b/c you only looked at the abstract), so you throw out a bunch of other stuff for me to help you understand.

The articles you cite basically say this (1) from the same article "A model was also tested wherein a positive association between spanking and aggression emerged at younger ages for boys, Whites, and children in single-mother homes" (2) Culture DIDN'T make a difference AND spanking relates to more problems -- that is offset a little by emotional support (duh) (3) "well, physical punishment is usually associated with bad outcomes" (and also, since we just read a bunch of articles without doing any real research or aggregation, we can't say much anyway) (4) "I'm completely irrelevant since the argument has nothing to do with whether culture affects neurological development -- the discussion is whether physical punishment relates DIFFERENTLY to brain development across culture"

 

[ethiostar]

Nice re-direct. You completely misunderstood the article you read (likely b/c you only looked at the abstract), so you throw out a bunch of other stuff for me to help you understand.

The articles you cite basically say this (1) from the same article "A model was also tested wherein a positive association between spanking and aggression emerged at younger ages for boys, Whites, and children in single-mother homes" (2) Culture DIDN'T make a difference AND spanking relates to more problems -- that is offset a little by emotional support (duh) (3) "well, physical punishment is usually associated with bad outcomes" (and also, since we just read a bunch of articles without doing any real research or aggregation, we can't say much anyway) (4) "I'm completely irrelevant since the argument has nothing to do with whether culture affects neurological development -- the discussion is whether physical punishment relates DIFFERENTLY to brain development across culture"

1) Claims that spanking teaches aggression seem unfounded.
2) Other factors mediate the link. Maybe not culture, in this case.
3) based on the literature review, detrimental outcomes were primarily due to overly frequent use of physical punishment (insert abuse here). But wait, there is more, detrimental outcomes have been found for every alternative disciplinary tactic when investigated with similar analyses.
4) The burgeoning field of cultural neuroscience is finding that culture influences brain development,

You can read the articles any way you want to. But there is enough evidence to suggest that the link you are desperately to is not direct and definitive as you are claiming it to be.

BTW, from the article that you claim that i miss understood.

If cultural normativeness and acceptance of a discipline strategy contribute to children's perception of their parents' use of it as being indicative of “good” and caring parenting, there may be less of an association between that type of discipline and children's adjustment problems. However, if children do not perceive that type of discipline as being indicative of good parenting (perhaps because it is not culturally normative), they may associate being disciplined in that manner with being rejected by their parents, which could be related to higher levels of child adjustment problems. Thus, it makes sense that mothers' use of physical discipline was related less strongly to children's aggression and anxiety when the child perceived the discipline strategy as being culturally normative than when the child did not. Caution must be exercised in applying these findings, however, because despite the attenuated link, more frequent use of physical discipline was associated with more adjustment problems, even when it was perceived as being normative.

I don't know how much more clarity you need than that.

I'm really done with this. It's been fun having a somewhat cordial discussion with you.