Breaking Down the ‘Boys: Where does Tyron Smith rank among NFL’s best left tackles?

[TwoDeep3]

Only, in this case, he's making the case for a statistic, and then drawing a conclusion that's not supported by the statistic he made the case for.

same/same

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Another article where a writer takes stats, then manipulates the meaning of the stats to underscore the supposition of the writer.

This is a sterling example why I do not hold stats in great esteem.

Stats are like documentaries. They reflect the desires of the author/film maker, and in most all cases are skewed to make a point sound logical that doesn't.

A stat counts what it counts with objectivity. The interpretation otoh can be suspect. When the conclusions drawn are subjective notions like 'good' or 'bad' then yeah its bogus but that is not an issue of the stat.

In science and statistics, there are means to determine correlation as well as control as to determine cause. Again this is objective. The key is being able to discern who does that properly. It sounds like your issue is that you don't know how to do that.

 

[TwoDeep3]

A stat counts what it counts with objectivity. The interpretation otoh can be suspect. When the conclusions drawn are subjective notions like 'good' or 'bad' then yeah its bogus but that is not an issue of the stat.

In science and statistics, there are means to determine correlation as well as control as to determine cause. Again this is objective. The key is being able to discern who does that properly. It sounds like your issue is that you don't know how to do that.

then manipulates the meaning of the stats to underscore the supposition of the writer.

How does this differ with your comment in bold?

There is no difference.

Glad we agree.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

The debate in the draft room was to go with Smith or Watt. If Smith doesn't play better this season it will be another huge miss for Dallas.

Smith has loads of potential, but has to start realizing it.

I don't understand this post or people who make them.

Start realizing his potential? Dude had a fantastic rookie year. An above average second year when moving to a new position while playing on a disaster of an offensive line. Oh and he is 22...2 full years younger than Watt.

And yet people seem disappointed.

It's like even good news on this squad and bright spots on this team are met with pessimism.

Believe it or not....our defensive line is a strength (sure getting long in the tooth) but our starters are capable of big things and we have young draft pick depth behind them.

Even knowing what I know now i'd take Smith over Watt 100 of 100 times.

Of all the positions to be worried about...people are worried about Smith?

Slap yourselves.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I don't understand this post or people who make them.

Start realizing his potential? Dude had a fantastic rookie year. An above average second year when moving to a new position while playing on a disaster of an offensive line. Oh and he is 22...2 full years younger than Watt.

And yet people seem disappointed.

It's like even good news on this squad and bright spots on this team are met with pessimism.

Believe it or not....our defensive line is a strength (sure getting long in the tooth) but our starters are capable of big things and we have young draft pick depth behind them.

Even knowing what I know now i'd take Smith over Watt 100 of 100 times.

Of all the positions to be worried about...people are worried about Smith?

Slap yourselves.

Toruk, they are comparing him to another player who is playing at a high level that could have been drafted by Dallas.

The defensive player mans a position of high visibility and is succeeding. I think it is J.J. Watt.

So this is an after the fact conjecture, comparing a left tackle to a defensive end/linebacker.

Sacks are sexy. Stopping them less noticeable therefore less cool value.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

How does this differ with your comment in bold?

There is no difference.

Glad we agree.

Leaving out context is fun

Stats are like documentaries. They reflect the desires of the author/film maker, and in most all cases are skewed to make a point sound logical that doesn't.

They are nothing like subjective documentaries.

 

[gimmesix]

I'm not saying give up on him.

Just that, if he doesn't have a great year, exploring options at tackle wouldn't be a bad idea.

Realistically, we're probably going to have to explore options at tackle in finding a replacement for Free. If that means taking a top left tackle and moving Smith back to the right, then so be it.

 

[Eskimo]

The thing that most people in this thread aren't understanding is that just because two players have the same amount of experience in the NFL doesn't mean they are at the same point of their individual physical development. JJ Watt was close to fully developed when he left Wisconsin at age 22 and is now fully developed at age 24. Tyron Smith was a pup who just a few months before the draft weighed less than 280 pounds. JJ Watt was playing the same position he played in college whereas Tyron had to be flipped which is a huge difference when you play the game moving backwards. The last factor is off-field issues - Tyron basically was robbed from and extorted by his own family. He had to get a restraining order against them. What kind of family situation does Watt have?

Now clearly the Texans got the better player. Watt is basically a finished product and was DPOTY.

What will Tyron do this year? I expect a pretty big jump in play now that he is more physically mature, is in his second season at LT, is in his second season playing Callahan's technique, will get the benefit of those zone stretch plays taking the steam out of pass rushers and his family shouldn't be harassing him anymore.

I do think he was a bit of a disappointment last year and that was partly due to unrealistic fan expectations based on how good he was as a rookie. I really don't see why he should be so much better at RT than LT other than he had much more experience with RT footwork. It usally takes 10,000s of snaps to develop the kind of muscle memory to do what he does and he probably just hasn't had enough experience since he is only 22 and played only RT in college.

IDK if he was the 8th best in the league last year. I don't think he looked any better than slightly below league average as a pass blocker but he looked pretty good as a run blocker. So probably about league average makes sense to me.

I am hoping for an ascent to the top 5 range this year. Sometimes when something clicks for a young player a huge surge in level of play occurs and that is what I am hoping for this season.

In the end, Watt was a better player but I don't blame the Cowboys for making this pick. It was the right choice at the time since Watt didn't flash this kind of pass rush potential in college - but Smith did flash elite athletic ability and feet for an OT in a tantalizing physical form with 37 inch arms and 11 inch hands, 4.9 speed, 35 bench press reps and only 20 years old. You win some and you lose some but you need to study the prospects well and make educated bets and I think the FO did here.

I remember wanting to trade back into the mid-teens to pick Watt. I had hoped we could get a mid-second rounder to grab a RT prospect so we could keep Free at LT. Of course, this strategy would have been a fail since Watt went higher than most people expected from what I recall. He was definitely a late riser. I do remember looking at his metrics and thinking they were out of this world but I just didn't understand why he wasn't more productive as a college player.

In the end, we got a good player at a huge position of need and that is a pretty good result in the draft even in the top 10.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Toruk, they are comparing him to another player who is playing at a high level that could have been drafted by Dallas.

The defensive player mans a position of high visibility and is succeeding. I think it is J.J. Watt.

So this is an after the fact conjecture, comparing a left tackle to a defensive end/linebacker.

Sacks are sexy. Stopping them less noticeable therefore less cool value.

Did you understand my post?

 

[TwoDeep3]

Did you understand my post?

Yes, thanks, I did understand it.

 

[burmafrd]

The thing that most people in this thread aren't understanding is that just because two players have the same amount of experience in the NFL doesn't mean they are at the same point of their individual physical development. JJ Watt was close to fully developed when he left Wisconsin at age 22 and is now fully developed at age 24. Tyron Smith was a pup who just a few months before the draft weighed less than 280 pounds. JJ Watt was playing the same position he played in college whereas Tyron had to be flipped which is a huge difference when you play the game moving backwards. The last factor is off-field issues - Tyron basically was robbed from and extorted by his own family. He had to get a restraining order against them. What kind of family situation does Watt have?

Now clearly the Texans got the better player. Watt is basically a finished product and was DPOTY.

What will Tyron do this year? I expect a pretty big jump in play now that he is more physically mature, is in his second season at LT, is in his second season playing Callahan's technique, will get the benefit of those zone stretch plays taking the steam out of pass rushers and his family shouldn't be harassing him anymore.

I do think he was a bit of a disappointment last year and that was partly due to unrealistic fan expectations based on how good he was as a rookie. I really don't see why he should be so much better at RT than LT other than he had much more experience with RT footwork. It usally takes 10,000s of snaps to develop the kind of muscle memory to do what he does and he probably just hasn't had enough experience since he is only 22 and played only RT in college.

IDK if he was the 8th best in the league last year. I don't think he looked any better than slightly below league average as a pass blocker but he looked pretty good as a run blocker. So probably about league average makes sense to me.

I am hoping for an ascent to the top 5 range this year. Sometimes when something clicks for a young player a huge surge in level of play occurs and that is what I am hoping for this season.

In the end, Watt was a better player but I don't blame the Cowboys for making this pick. It was the right choice at the time since Watt didn't flash this kind of pass rush potential in college - but Smith did flash elite athletic ability and feet for an OT in a tantalizing physical form with 37 inch arms and 11 inch hands, 4.9 speed, 35 bench press reps and only 20 years old. You win some and you lose some but you need to study the prospects well and make educated bets and I think the FO did here.

I remember wanting to trade back into the mid-teens to pick Watt. I had hoped we could get a mid-second rounder to grab a RT prospect so we could keep Free at LT. Of course, this strategy would have been a fail since Watt went higher than most people expected from what I recall. He was definitely a late riser. I do remember looking at his metrics and thinking they were out of this world but I just didn't understand why he wasn't more productive as a college player.

In the end, we got a good player at a huge position of need and that is a pretty good result in the draft even in the top 10.

THIS POST should end this thread. But it won't. oh well.

hindsight is always 20-20. But some here do not understand that; and just how WORTHLESS it is

 

[xwalker]

The thing that most people in this thread aren't understanding is that just because two players have the same amount of experience in the NFL doesn't mean they are at the same point of their individual physical development. JJ Watt was close to fully developed when he left Wisconsin at age 22 and is now fully developed at age 24. Tyron Smith was a pup who just a few months before the draft weighed less than 280 pounds. JJ Watt was playing the same position he played in college whereas Tyron had to be flipped which is a huge difference when you play the game moving backwards. The last factor is off-field issues - Tyron basically was robbed from and extorted by his own family. He had to get a restraining order against them. What kind of family situation does Watt have?

Now clearly the Texans got the better player. Watt is basically a finished product and was DPOTY.

What will Tyron do this year? I expect a pretty big jump in play now that he is more physically mature, is in his second season at LT, is in his second season playing Callahan's technique, will get the benefit of those zone stretch plays taking the steam out of pass rushers and his family shouldn't be harassing him anymore.

I do think he was a bit of a disappointment last year and that was partly due to unrealistic fan expectations based on how good he was as a rookie. I really don't see why he should be so much better at RT than LT other than he had much more experience with RT footwork. It usally takes 10,000s of snaps to develop the kind of muscle memory to do what he does and he probably just hasn't had enough experience since he is only 22 and played only RT in college.

IDK if he was the 8th best in the league last year. I don't think he looked any better than slightly below league average as a pass blocker but he looked pretty good as a run blocker. So probably about league average makes sense to me.

I am hoping for an ascent to the top 5 range this year. Sometimes when something clicks for a young player a huge surge in level of play occurs and that is what I am hoping for this season.

In the end, Watt was a better player but I don't blame the Cowboys for making this pick. It was the right choice at the time since Watt didn't flash this kind of pass rush potential in college - but Smith did flash elite athletic ability and feet for an OT in a tantalizing physical form with 37 inch arms and 11 inch hands, 4.9 speed, 35 bench press reps and only 20 years old. You win some and you lose some but you need to study the prospects well and make educated bets and I think the FO did here.

I remember wanting to trade back into the mid-teens to pick Watt. I had hoped we could get a mid-second rounder to grab a RT prospect so we could keep Free at LT. Of course, this strategy would have been a fail since Watt went higher than most people expected from what I recall. He was definitely a late riser. I do remember looking at his metrics and thinking they were out of this world but I just didn't understand why he wasn't more productive as a college player.

In the end, we got a good player at a huge position of need and that is a pretty good result in the draft even in the top 10.

Good post.

In general, DLinemen transition to the NFL faster than OLinemen. Combine that with Watt being older and it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

[Crown Royal]

Evaluating your players based on who you could have gotten instead is foolhardy and something every team could do and lose at. It doesn't matter that Watt was available and is very good, what matters is how good Smith can be to this team.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Good post.

In general, DLinemen transition to the NFL faster than OLinemen. Combine that with Watt being older and it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.

That and a litany of other things like the teams they play for, what they are asked to do etc.

The only reason why they are linked is because of pet cat status in that draft. Might was well compare Demarcus Ware to Joe Staley.

As an aside, one thing that I would add is that Smith has more than flashed on the left side. He still caves in the OL and has shown good quickness and pop when he gets his footwork right. Now it's about developing consistency.

 

[jterrell]

My initial response was what kind of homer labels Tyron so highly.

Then I read it and thought it carefully.

I can't really disagree with him. Tyron is NO WHERE near the 8th best LT RIGHT NOW. At the same time he is probably a top 3 LT prospect. How do you merge those two realities to form the list above?

Very tough to do and all speculation.

So I can't really disagree.

I expect Tyron will be a top 10 LT in the next 2/3 seasons. He is a top 5 athlete at the position and will gain more from experience than most considering he has so little of it until now.

But next year we''ll be lucky if he makes the top half of the league and can finish 15 or 16. That'd be a large leap from last season.

 

[Nation]

I have a tough time with any list that has Nate Solder behind Tyron Smith, even if it is for 2013. Their pre-draft pedigree might not be the same, but Solder's post-draft production and the history of his line coach should lean heavily in his favor.

 

[xwalker]

Evaluating your players based on who you could have gotten instead is foolhardy and something every team could do and lose at. It doesn't matter that Watt was available and is very good, what matters is how good Smith can be to this team.

Yep, it's not about the picks you missed or didn't get, it's about the ones that you did get. Jimmy cut two 3rd round picks and still won 2 Super Bowls. I doubt if he ever second guessed himself on those picks.

 

[jterrell]

I have a tough time with any list that has Nate Solder behind Tyron Smith, even if it is for 2013. Their pre-draft pedigree might not be the same, but Solder's post-draft production and the history of his line coach should lean heavily in his favor.

i dont think anyone would complain if you put Solder ahead of Smith but this is where the line about how fast Brady gets rid of the ball comes into play.

brady is substantially faster at passing the ball then romo on a per play basis.

as a run blocker smith already rates higher than solder according to many metrics.

 

[Bizwah]

For the life of me I can never figure out why so many people want to constantly second-guess the players we take.

I'm constantly reading how we should've taken So-and-So instead of Our Guy. "Why didn't we draft Whatshisname?"

Sheesh!

Over the years I've read that we should've taken Moss over Ellis, anyone over Quincy Carter, Merriman over Ware, and now it's Watt over Smith.

What difference does it make? We don't need to worry about what we DON"T have and just focus on the players we do have. No amount of whining will get us JJ Watt. No about of griping will get us Moss instead of Ellis.

Smith will be a good player. Will he ever be as good as Watt? I don't care. I simply want Smith to be a good LT.

 

[Nation]

i dont think anyone would complain if you put Solder ahead of Smith but this is where the line about how fast Brady gets rid of the ball comes into play.

brady is substantially faster at passing the ball then romo on a per play basis.

as a run blocker smith already rates higher than solder according to many metrics.

I agree that Brady's offense is horizontal based and thus you're going to see quicker pass attempts. However, Tyron's pressure rate went down in half from the first half of the season to the second half of the season, so it is fair to say that there was some failure on Smith's end along with the factors he can't control.