Can T-new move to FS, successfully?

[perrykemp]

I'll give you Charles Woodson - I'm unsure of how I forgot about him.

So that makes 3 guys I'd take over Newman - Woodson, Asomugha, and Revis. Still Top 5.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are discounting Tramon Williams because he has only been dominant for 1 year (this year).

He may have been the best CB in the NFC this year.

 

[casmith07]

Yes, Rod Woodson clearly comes to mind. Ronnie Lot made the switch also. You can see the Packers starting to do it now with Charles Woodson.

What is the common thread with those guys --- two HOFers and a likely future HOFer in Woodson. In other words they weren't just "good" corners, they were great corners before the made the switch.

Finally, all three of those guys were unusually physical for CBs... heck, Charles Woodson had just under 100 tackles this year for example.

TNew has never been a bad tackler or anything like that, but I'm not sure he's in the class of these other guys who made the transition to Safety from CB.

I agree. Newman is a pure CB. He's not an all-around DB like those guys were.

Those guys were in the class of Woody. I fully believe we could've walked Woody down to the line and he could've covered any WR like an elite CB. I think Newman has been a great CB, but would only make a good Safety. We need better than good Safety play from at least one of the safeties if we want to dominate on defense, because Sensabaugh is really only decent.

 

[LatinMind]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are discounting Tramon Williams because he has only been dominant for 1 year (this year).

He may have been the best CB in the NFC this year.

yup, guy was very very good this yr

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Sorry, but it's ridiculous to say Newman has always been "adequate".

Maybe he is now, but in 2005 or 2006? Or even his rookie year? No way.

 

[casmith07]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are discounting Tramon Williams because he has only been dominant for 1 year (this year).

He may have been the best CB in the NFC this year.

He'll need to do it for more than 1 year and against more teams than the Lions, Bears, and a depleted Vikings squad. But he's trending upward. Green Bay should feel good about their CB situation.

 

[Stautner]

You're not excused. Until you have had first-hand experience understanding and learning and playing the position, I can't take your opinion with anything more than a grain of salt.

So if you don't mind, make sure it's sea salt. I hear it's better for you.

Wow - a self-proclaimed expert analyst - a CB guru - s talent evaluator of the highest order.

Perhaps I should be bowing at your feet.

Sorry, not impressed. Whatever experience you have as a CB doesn't change my mind in the least. The funny thing is you have never actually even pointed to anything special about Newman. You call him top 5, but are you claiming he is a ball hawk? A playmaker? A tough physical speciment that punishes receivers? A shut-down CB? What is it? You are just throwing out a general ranking - isn't that kind of shallow for an expert like yourself?

I've told you specifically what I see, and I haven't been told or shown I'm wrong.

Nevertheless, if you see a ball hawking, turnover creating, hard tackling CB we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see it, but of course, I'm not an expert NFL talent evaluator, so what do I know?

 

[Stautner]

Sorry, but it's ridiculous to say Newman has always been "adequate".

Maybe he is now, but in 2005 or 2006? Or even his rookie year? No way.

So, are you saying he hasn'at always been adequate? I would say he has been at least that, and probably a little better than that at specific points in time. My intent was not to pin a single word on him to describe every second of his career, but more of a general summation.

I've always viewed him as a good player, but not a special player. An adequate player, but not an outstanding player. A solid player, but not a standout player.

None of this is trashing Newman - I have generally been pleased with him, and I have not been one of the guys screaming for his head. Nevertheless, I have never seen him as a ball hawk with great instincts, a playmaker or a big hitter. He does a decent job, but I just have never seen him as an upper echelon guy.

 

[casmith07]

So the only way we can evaluate talent in football is by buzzwords?

Great. So lets start pigeonholing every sports player into buzzword descriptions.

In basketball we can have "rim-rattlers," "sky-walkers," "pure shooters," and "lockdown defenders." If you don't fit into any of those categories, then you aren't special, and need to be released.

In baseball, how about some "power hitters," or pitchers with "nasty stuff." If you don't have those heralded qualities, you must be a bum.

Since it's all so cut and dry, then Newman must be better than Asomugha. More INTs, more tackles. It's so black and white - easy. But then, what's this? You disagree? Of course Asomugha is better than Newman, because there are a lot of things out there that you can't measure with a name like "ball hawk" (of which Asomugha is NOT) or a "playmaker."

Forgive me for thinking that someone that makes an open-field tackle by himself against a ball-carrier with 40lbs on him with seriously bruised ribs is "making plays." Forgive me if a guy that doesn't do anything other than deny a QB his side of the field a guy that is "making plays."

By your definition, you could underrate or overrate just about every player in the NFL. This is why you can look in my posting history and see why I don't like words like "ball hawk" or "playmaker". They're buzzwords designed to get Joe Average Fan all excited about a player without looking at the whole package.

If you can't understand this simple concept, then as far as I'm concerned we have nothing more to discuss here.

Edit: forgot about "big hitter." First of all, very few CBs are "big hitters" because they're the smallest guys on the field. Second, Taylor Mays MUST be a better DB than Newman because he's a "big hitter." Right?

 

[baj1dallas]

Not a doubt in my mind he can.

Likewise, not a doubt in my mind that it's not a good role for him. Not his skill set at all.

 

[Cowboy Brian]

Derrell Revis
Nnamdi Asomugha
Charles Woodson
Tramon Williams
Antoine Winfield
Ike Taylor
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
Champ Bailey
Asante Samuel
Terrell Thmas

Joe Haden
Devin McCourty
Leon Hall
Johnathan Joseph

and theres probably a dozen more.

 

[LatinMind]

Joe Haden
Devin McCourty
Leon Hall
Johnathan Joseph

and theres probably a dozen more.

Man Haden is awsome. I think within a couple of yrs he'll be in Revis' class

 

[CanuckCowboysFan]

Name 5 guys you'd take over him. I can name two - Revis and Asomugha.

Who are you going to list? Samuel? Doesn't tackle. Clements? Burned on the regular.

Revis
Aso
Woodson
Tramon Williams
Joe Haden
Champ
Aqib Talib
Brent Grimes
Brandon Carr
Antoine Cason
Jonathan Joseph
Leon Hall
Cortland Finnigan
Asante Samuel
Cromartie
Ike Taylor

That was easy.

 

[Stautner]

So the only way we can evaluate talent in football is by buzzwords?

Great. So lets start pigeonholing every sports player into buzzword descriptions.

In basketball we can have "rim-rattlers," "sky-walkers," "pure shooters," and "lockdown defenders." If you don't fit into any of those categories, then you aren't special, and need to be released.

In baseball, how about some "power hitters," or pitchers with "nasty stuff." If you don't have those heralded qualities, you must be a bum.

Since it's all so cut and dry, then Newman must be better than Asomugha. More INTs, more tackles. It's so black and white - easy. But then, what's this? You disagree? Of course Asomugha is better than Newman, because there are a lot of things out there that you can't measure with a name like "ball hawk" (of which Asomugha is NOT) or a "playmaker."

Forgive me for thinking that someone that makes an open-field tackle by himself against a ball-carrier with 40lbs on him with seriously bruised ribs is "making plays." Forgive me if a guy that doesn't do anything other than deny a QB his side of the field a guy that is "making plays."

Would you say accuracy and arms strength and making reads are just buzzwords that have no bearing on whether a guy is a quality QB, and would you ignore those things and rank a guy based on "just because I said so?". Well, of course you would, but I wouldn't. When I make a claim I at least try to explain why I believe as I do. You've offered nothing.

By your definition, you could underrate or overrate just about every player in the NFL. This is why you can look in my posting history and see why I don't like words like "ball hawk" or "playmaker". They're buzzwords designed to get Joe Average Fan all excited about a player without looking at the whole package.

If you can't understand this simple concept, then as far as I'm concerned we have nothing more to discuss here.

Edit: forgot about "big hitter." First of all, very few CBs are "big hitters" because they're the smallest guys on the field. Second, Taylor Mays MUST be a better DB than Newman because he's a "big hitter." Right?

This is so ridiculous I can't decide whether to scratch my head or laugh out loud.

The fact is you have offered NO CRITERIA - no basis for judgement. All you have done is offered a blanket statement that h is a top 5 CB without apparently being able to say why or what it is that you see in him. It's an empty ranking with no foundation.

I will be the first to admit that "buzzwords" and stats aren't a tell all. And in fact, my whole argument has simply been that I'm going on what my eyes and mind tell me, but you wont accept that. Hell, you wont even offer an account of what your mind and eyes tell you - you offer nothing escept a ranking with no rationale.

The reality is, statements mean nothing without some logic. We can't act as if it's a generic thing and we can just call him top 5 without recognition that a CB has to have a unique skill set that is different than a NT or ILB. The more able to "make plays" (I know - a buzzword) such as interceptions, knocking down passes, forcing fumbles, blitzing, etc, the better the player is. You can't suggest a guy who doesn't do those things as well is the better player without offering some foundation for it - some logic - some reasoning.

You haven't done that.

If your argument is simply that you are going on your pesonal view of Newman, then you need to just accept that I'm doing the same because the generalized elitist BS about you just knowing more doesn't fly.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I seriously doubt that. Newman played at 180 or so in college and nobody worked harder in the weight room to add muscle than him once he got here. Still, he only got up to 190 or so. No way can he play at 205.

He was 189 at the combine where players concentrate on keeping weight down because they have to sprint. Especially cornerbacks.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=59532&draftyear=2003&genpos=CB

He is listed by the Cowboys at 193.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/team/team_biosPlayers.cfm?playerID=4525529F-E0C2-E386-8D2155B5E8551537

At best you are mistaken.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

At best you are mistaken.

:laugh2:

He was listed at 170 when he was a sophomore in college. The guy is a tremendous athlete, but he was always skinny and trying to add muscle... Especially because Parcells was always worried about how small he was.

But if you think a guy who has always been one of the hardest weight room workers on the team can suddenly add 12 more pounds of muscle at age 33, knock yourself out.

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

I really wish people would stop making thread about the same topic!!! Talk about beat a dead horse, this will NOT work!!!!


:bang2:

 

[Muhast]

People think if a player is due $8million you can just cut them and save 8 million on the cap.

Thats not how it works.

You also don't cut your best CB when you have no depth at the position as it is.

If you move him to FS, you need to find a replacement at CB. If you keep him at CB you need to find a FS. So the question of IF he can or can't might not matter, it will be which of the two positions we have a better spot to fill. Which we won't know until after the draft and FA.

I think he could do it and be just fine. Sort of like Troy Vincent. He played well at CB, moved to FS later in his career and did pretty well. Another thought I've had is, people keep naming Champ to be our future FS and have no doubt he can do it... He is a better CB then Newman, but he isn't physical at all and isn't a better tackler than Newman, so I don't get that logic.

 

[Apollo Creed]

People think if a player is due $8million you can just cut them and save 8 million on the cap.

Thats not how it works.

You also don't cut your best CB when you have no depth at the position as it is.

If you move him to FS, you need to find a replacement at CB. If you keep him at CB you need to find a FS. So the question of IF he can or can't might not matter, it will be which of the two positions we have a better spot to fill. Which we won't know until after the draft and FA.

I think he could do it and be just fine. Sort of like Troy Vincent. He played well at CB, moved to FS later in his career and did pretty well. Another thought I've had is, people keep naming Champ to be our future FS and have no doubt he can do it... He is a better CB then Newman, but he isn't physical at all and isn't a better tackler than Newman, so I don't get that logic.

Good post.

Sensy and Jenkins are gonna be back no matter what IMO.

Newman's price, age, and injury history make him expendable. Especially if you plan on investing another high draft pick or pricey FA in a secondary that has been mediocre at best since Darren Woodson was roaming it.

Ball may come back, but just as depth at CB - which I think hes capable of doing. You don't need great corners as much as you need a good scheme and guys winning their individual battles up front.

The minute we get better up front I guarantee our secondary will magically get better as well. We're going to get one new starter next year regardless. With a shot at Peterson and Newman's potential ability to move to FS - we may have 3 new starters in the defense.

 

[Muhast]

Derrell Revis
Nnamdi Asomugha
Charles Woodson
Tramon Williams
Antoine Winfield
Ike Taylor
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
Champ Bailey
Asante Samuel
Terrell Thmas

Winfield is a great tackler. But he was burned much more than Newman was this year.
Ike Taylor isn't all that great.

I'll agree with the rest of the list.

So I'd say Newman is right around 8-15 range out of 64 cbs. (where exactly u choose to rank him is fine, but that's where I'd put him)

 

[respectdatstar]

Name 5 guys you'd take over him. I can name two - Revis and Asomugha.

Who are you going to list? Samuel? Doesn't tackle. Clements? Burned on the regular.

If they are a top 5 CB in the NFL...you will not be having a discussion about making them anything other than a CB. Nuff said. Top 5:

1. Asomugha, Oakland
2. Revis, NY Jets
3. Woodson, Green Bay
4. Flowers, Kansas City
5. Hall, Washington