Carter is the pick

[BigDFan5]

:laugh2:

Do me a favor quick.. go research for 5 seconds and tell me what Bradie James measured in at the combine.

i'll take 6' 3" 242 pounds for 1000 Alex

 

[RoyTheHammer]

That would be a cute point if it was a valid one.
Bradie played at LSU in the mid 250s in college. He lost weight to get his speed up for the combine. He ran in the 4.7s IIRC so was slow but overly productive.

LSU listed him at 6'3" and 248. That's what 13 pounds heavier than Carter's listing?
James is LSU's second all-time leading tackler and holds the single season tackle mark.

In fact Carter has 215 career tackles while James had over 150 in a single season.

Want to imply again these guys are the same type player?

Since you can't seem to answer the question.. i will for you.

Bradie James was measured at 6'2 242 lbs at the NFl Combine.

Carter.. 6'2 241 lbs.


Lee is the same size.

Don't tell me they arn't big enough.

Also, we don't need another run stuffer beside Bradie. Part of the problem this past season was that Brooking wasn't good in coverage either. You put an athletic guy who can cover, but also has the strength to take on blocks and fill gaps, next to Bradie and our D will be much better. That's what we got here in Carter.

 

[Joe_Fan]

Yes, that is the case.
He was never on my radar because um he had ACL surgery, is projected as a 4-3 OLB and weighs 242.

I didn't see any need for another 240 pound inside backer on the team that merited a top 50 pick.

There is plenty of talk by guys who love him that he wont be ready to start the season off.

I understand taking falling talent but if that falling talent always carries a gotcha it becomes worrisome.

And I just read where Lacewell apparently weighed in? OH LAWD! That means my dislike probably isn't enough to make him a player, Lacewell is the anti-scout. Whoever he says draft you should write off your board.

Just like how good ol' Switzer weighed in on the Murray pick.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/multimedia/multimedia_center.cfm?id=A4058263-FF75-0777-36913012D98F25AC

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Part of my dislike for the pick is it is Sean Lee all over again. Great coverage guy and athlete with injury concerns slowing him to start and less size than standard at 3-4 ILB.

By the way.. what's the "standard" through your eyes for ILB's in a 3-4.

Because the "standard" for the Steelers, who have run the 34 better than anyone in the NFL for how long now, is two guys who are Bradie and Carters weight or less.

Farrior is 6'2 242 lbs (sound familiar)

Timmons is 6'1 234 lbs.

 

[jterrell]

Since you can't seem to answer the question.. i will for you.

Bradie James was measured at 6'2 242 lbs at the NFl Combine.

Carter.. 6'2 241 lbs.


Lee is the same size.

Don't tell me they arn't big enough.

Also, we don't need another run stuffer beside Bradie. Part of the problem this past season was that Brooking wasn't good in coverage either. You put an athletic guy who can cover, but also has the strength to take on blocks and fill gaps, next to Bradie and our D will be much better. That's what we got here in Carter.

You do realize weight on a single day isn't an indicator of what weight a player carries during a season right?

You do realize some players work hard for a few months to gain weight for the combine while others work to lose weight?

The problem with your point is it is meaningless. We all know Bradie James was up to 260 plus pounds under Bill Parcells because Bill wanted bigger ILBs. James is a big guy who naturally holds 250 plus pounds and had done so long before the NFL combine. Sean Lee and Bruce Carter both bulked to hit 242 at the combine. Lee reportedly weight in the 230s for at least part of last year.

I actually played football and saw just how hard it is to maintain weight in season.

As to the rest of your comments we drafted Sean Lee to provide Coverage and play next to Bradie. Where does that leave Carter? Nickel backer besides him? At pick 40???? With a bottom 5 starting DB corps and bottom 5 OG's (currently Kosier is a FA).

Carter is an outstanding athlete but if you are trying to sell him as a fit on this roster you are selling you need a new tactic.

 

[Nightman]

He reminds me of Urlacher with his speed and coverage abilities. I've waited years for an impact ILB and can wait a few weeks into the season for him. Will love seeing him paired up with Lee for years to come.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

You do realize weight on a single day isn't an indicator of what weight a player carries during a season right?

You do realize some players work hard for a few months to gain weight for the combine while others work to lose weight?

The problem with your point is it is meaningless. We all know Bradie James was up to 260 plus pounds under Bill Parcells because Bill wanted bigger ILBs. James is a big guy who naturally holds 250 plus pounds and had done so long before the NFL combine. Sean Lee and Bruce Carter both bulked to hit 242 at the combine. Lee reportedly weight in the 230s for at least part of last year.

I actually played football and saw just how hard it is to maintain weight in season.

As to the rest of your comments we drafted Sean Lee to provide Coverage and play next to Bradie. Where does that leave Carter? Nickel backer besides him? At pick 40???? With a bottom 5 starting DB corps and bottom 5 OG's (currently Kosier is a FA).

Carter is an outstanding athlete but if you are trying to sell him as a fit on this roster you are selling you need a new tactic.

Bradie has played the last few seasons at 245 to 250.. something Carter could easily do and still maintain his athelticism.

Nothing wrong with a 3 or 4 man rotation at ILB if you have quality personel there. It will take a season or two to transition Lee and Carter into full time starters. Maybe more if Bradie continues to play at a high level. But either Lee or Carter will be a starter by next season at the latest, and the other will see significant playing time no doubt.

Also, the Rob Ryan 34 is NOT the same as the Wade 34, and if you think Ryan would allow for a draft pick in the 2nd round that he didn't think could play a big part in the defense you are sadly mistaken. Carter can take on blockers and stuff the run, and he is very good in coverage. He's not undersized at all for a 34 ILB, and neither is Lee. You just have to use them correctly and get bigger at the NT position. Can't have a DE playing NT and expect to fare well against the run.

 

[jterrell]

By the way.. what's the "standard" through your eyes for ILB's in a 3-4.

Because the "standard" for the Steelers, who have run the 34 better than anyone in the NFL for how long now, is two guys who are Bradie and Carters weight or less.

Farrior is 6'2 242 lbs (sound familiar)

Timmons is 6'1 234 lbs.

How much do the Steelers front 3 weigh since you seem big on research?

Have you ever played LB at any level? Ever thought of the difference between an attacking front and one that actually holds up blockers to keep them off speedy LBs? Did you see Zach Thomas here? Did you see how fast Dat was gone once we went 3-4?

How about we look at Rob Ryan's CLE team shall we?

Eric Barton is 6'3" and 245 pounds. Fairly similar to our young pups.
Chris Gocong however is 6'2" and 263 pounds.

Could we go Steeler style and start Lee next to Carter? Maybe if 4 of our 5 listed two deep DL were over 300 pounds.

Carter was not a tackling machine or overly physical in college. He was a strong safety convert who covered WRs a lot. He got a lot of ankle tackles and bounced off a lot of folks in the clips on this thread. That isn't a 3-4 starting ILB to me but I admit in a Steeler system he'd be an ideal fit.

 

[jterrell]

He reminds me of Urlacher with his speed and coverage abilities. I've waited years for an impact ILB and can wait a few weeks into the season for him. Will love seeing him paired up with Lee for years to come.

Urlacher was bad in a 3-4 FWIW which is why they scrapped the idea and play cover 2 4-3.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

How much do the Steelers front 3 weigh since you seem big on research?

I wouldn't say im big on research.. just big on having a clue.

The Steelers front 3 are as big as ours.. save for the NT position. Which is why for the past 6 months i've been saying as much as anyone that we desperately need a true NT to anchor this defense.

 

[Nightman]

Urlacher was bad in a 3-4 FWIW which is why they scrapped the idea and play cover 2 4-3.

Yeah, but he was a converted Safety that bulked up and kept his speed. Carter has that kind of potential.

 

[jterrell]

Bradie has played the last few seasons at 245 to 250.. something Carter could easily do and still maintain his athelticism.

Nothing wrong with a 3 or 4 man rotation at ILB if you have quality personel there. It will take a season or two to transition Lee and Carter into full time starters. Maybe more if Bradie continues to play at a high level. But either Lee or Carter will be a starter by next season at the latest, and the other will see significant playing time no doubt.

Also, the Rob Ryan 34 is NOT the same as the Wade 34, and if you think Ryan would allow for a draft pick in the 2nd round that he didn't think could play a big part in the defense you are sadly mistaken. Carter can take on blockers and stuff the run, and he is very good in coverage. He's not undersized at all for a 34 ILB, and neither is Lee. You just have to use them correctly and get bigger at the NT position. Can't have a DE playing NT and expect to fare well against the run.

You are writing a bunch of checks there your facts can't cash.

You have no idea how much weight Carter can hold beyond 235 during a season because it has never been proven. Carter is going to have to work very hard to win a nickel job which means a lot of covering and running. Assuming he gains a few pounds doing so from his combine weight is a huge leap. He may very well do so in a couple years but again this is pick 40 man. You don't draft starters for three years from now at pick 40 unless it is a QB.

If we need to get bigger on the DL why didn't we use pick 40 to do so instead of drafting a ILB who is a part-time player this year if he is healthy enough to win that job?

You also have zero idea how much impact Rob Ryan had on this draft much less this draft pick. He was not Jason's first choice at DC and isn't seen as a long time coach here with him expecting to take a head job as soon as one comes available to him. Jerry Jones makes the final decisions on picks.
Is it possible Ryan was lobbying hard for carter? Absolutely. Is it possible he didn't address Carter much at all and some other scout or coach loved carter? Absolutely.

 

[jterrell]

Yeah, but he was a converted Safety that bulked up and kept his speed. Carter has that kind of potential.

I don't disagree which is why every profile has him listed as an OLB in a 4-3.

He was generally regarded as a speed player whose biggest asset is coverage.
I just read 6 or 7 profiles in the last hour and they all are very similar.

Insanely fast player with great special teams ability. Needs work on strength and tackling and is listed as a 4-3 OLB.

From Sideline Scouting:

Positives: Good speed... Has good strength for his size, but could stand to add a little weight to frame... Excellent special teams performer, has blocked six kicks in college career... Does good job breaking down feet and getting in position to wrap up when tackling... Plays with pretty good motor, does not take plays off often and always tries to get to the play... Has a lot of experience dropping into zone coverage, does not make a lot of big plays in coverage, but is always quick to get to the ball in the air... Very sound mentally and is an overall fundamental player who rarely makes a big mistake... Hard worker with a lot of potential, always working to improve his game.

Negatives: Timid when diagnosing plays, more concerned with maintaining duties than relying on instincts... Not a heavy hitter, tends to wrap up at the ankles rather than forming up and driving through ball carrier... Must develop more as a pass rusher, gets caught up in blocks at line of scrimmage and can be neutralized easily by stronger offensive linemen... Had reconstructive surgery to repair a torn ACL in mid-December, will likely not be available for the combine or North Carolina's pro day.

From the National Football Post:

One of the more gifted athletes you're going to see at the position. Possesses a long, athletic-looking frame and is at his best when asked to click and close and make plays in pursuit. Showcases great explosion once he locates the football and quickly is able to get from point A to point B. Exhibits impressive length and range when asked to break down and wrap up on contact. ...

The biggest knock on him is his inability to quickly react to the football. Isn't real instinctive, doesn't consistently trust what he sees and rarely gets an early jump on the pass. Puts himself in position to make plays on the football, but is slow to get his head around in the pass game and adjust to the throw.

However, has a real savvy for blocking kicks, is explosive, can cleanly change directions and does a great job dropping his pad level and accelerating after the football. Could have a real impact as a special teams guy early in the career.

Impression: A gifted athlete who has the makings of a starting weakside backer in the NFL. But I do have some questions about his instincts, which could end up holding him back from ever becoming a real impact player at the next level. However, tore his ACL toward the end of the year and is now a major medical risk.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

You are writing a bunch of checks there your facts can't cash.

You have no idea how much weight Carter can hold beyond 235 during a season because it has never been proven. Carter is going to have to work very hard to win a nickel job which means a lot of covering and running. Assuming he gains a few pounds doing so from his combine weight is a huge leap. He may very well do so in a couple years but again this is pick 40 man. You don't draft starters for three years from now at pick 40 unless it is a QB.

If we need to get bigger on the DL why didn't we use pick 40 to do so instead of drafting a ILB who is a part-time player this year if he is healthy enough to win that job?

You also have zero idea how much impact Rob Ryan had on this draft much less this draft pick. He was not Jason's first choice at DC and isn't seen as a long time coach here with him expecting to take a head job as soon as one comes available to him. Jerry Jones makes the final decisions on picks.
Is it possible Ryan was lobbying hard for carter? Absolutely. Is it possible he didn't address Carter much at all and some other scout or coach loved carter? Absolutely.

Please man.. this whole post is bordering on foolishness now. Its not even a debate anymore.

You're right. Ryan had nothing to do with a 2nd round pick for his defense, even though he's the man that's going to be running it. Im sure he didn't sign off on the pick.

And anyone with any sense can see Carter has the frame to add weight. Just like Smith has the frame to add weight and we picked him at 9 even though he's never played above 285.

But no, im sure no one can predict if they have the frame to add weight and not lose their freak athleticism.. we just picked them both on a whim and decided to take huge risks on both.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Insanely fast player with great special teams ability. Needs work on strength and tackling and is listed as a 4-3 OLB.

From Sideline Scouting:

Positives: Good speed... Has good strength for his size, but could stand to add a little weight to frame... Excellent special teams performer, has blocked six kicks in college career... Does good job breaking down feet and getting in position to wrap up when tackling... Plays with pretty good motor, does not .

You say he needs to work on his strength, yet the first line in the scouting report you provided says "has good strength for his size"



Please shut off already.. its pathetic. Just say you don't like the pick and move on.

 

[baj1dallas]

thats what i see as well...

i loved the sean lee pick but this is like sean lee light.
this guy is fast but not a physical player in the limited stuff i have seen.

OTOH the way I remember it nickel LB was a problem for the Cowboys last season, although football outsiders say the Cowboys rank #4 against TEs and #6 against RBs in pass defense. Maybe 3 years from now Carter is ready to take over for James full time but I think the next couple seasons he's just a nickel LB.

 

[JPM]

You say he needs to work on his strength, yet the first line in the scouting report you provided says "has good strength for his size"



Please shut off already.. its pathetic. Just say you don't like the pick and move on.

A standout in the weight room with a power clean of 374 pounds, bench press of 440 pounds and squat of 605 pounds

Seems strong too me.

 

[Arch Stanton]

So you've never focused on him other than the youtube video clips but it's your least favorite pick in 5 years?

oooooooook.

A scout can't see 'em all.

 

[birdwells1]

This from Carter's ESPN Insider Profile:

Possesses functional strength for size. Flashes quick-twitch explosiveness at the point of attack, however does not always fire his gun. Is too much of a finesse player. Needs to play with more aggression. Absorbs too many blocks and rarely plays with reckless abandon. He will occasionally work around blockers when he should take him on. Not as tough as we'd like to see at this position, which is a significant concern. Also can do a better job of taking on blocks with proper shoulder to maintain gap control with run fits. Will turn shoulder when taking on blocks and slim lower body makes him easily engulfed by bigger blockers in phone booth situations.

Has size and flashes explosiveness to deliver violent hit on occasion. Doesn't consistently square up, deliver a blow and drive through contact, though. Does a solid job of wrapping up in space the majority of time but occasionally will come in too hot and get himself in trouble. Needs to learn to gear down and break down at times (especially when he's nearing the sideline).

A finesse LBer .

 

[jterrell]

You say he needs to work on his strength, yet the first line in the scouting report you provided says "has good strength for his size"



Please shut off already.. its pathetic. Just say you don't like the pick and move on.

Tell me more about Carter's frame? ROFL.
You are being goofy. Nothing you state on the topic is anywhere near fact. It is 100% opinion. You are right in that it isn't a debate because you have no real points to make, just things you think.

Show me one quote that says Carter has the frame to add weight from a scout anywhere? Did Kevin Burnett have the frame to add weight?

Strength for his size! Yea his 235 pounds, ROFL. You are projecting another 15 pounds onto that in a year for a guy who can't perform a single squat or deadlift until who knows when.

I do not like the pick and in telling you why am relying upon actual facts not mojo and a crystal ball telling my Ryan had anything to do with the pick(even though Lacewell was mentioned by name and Ryan wasn't). And who knows if Ryan even coaches Carter considering Ryan wants a head job ASAP and Carter is not even cleared to practice yet. Even Jerry Jones has stated Carter is a "future" starter. Why haven't we heard Ryan's thoughts on this pick since it is such a foregone conclusion that he wanted him?

I am sure there are legit reasons to like this pick but I am still waiting on a reason based upon fact as to why that is.

I am fine with the other two selections but this to me was giving away a 40th pick in the draft. Might as well have traded it for a first next year since that is essentially what they did with Carter imho.

On a team with the holes we have and our last first round pick struggling with off-field drama we have spent two 2nd round picks on ILB when the starter and leader of the ILB group is a former 4th round selection. So no I absolutely do not get this pick. I am willing to be brought around but that will require more than smoke and mirrors. It isn't like I haven't seen other picks for the best available athlete fail: Bennett and Stanback to name two quickly.