CBS Sportsline: Goodell's no lawyer... so why take law in his own hands?

joseephuss

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514714 said:
and you know this because.....

from what i understand there are guidelines for punishment not this thoroughgoing power that the commisioner has under the new agreement.

I didn't think there were guidelines for punishment. It was and has been for a while left to the commissioner's discretion. Goodell just chooses a harsher punishment than his predecessors. That is the main reason to the appeal. They aren't saying the NFL doesn't have the right to suspend Pacman. They just think it is excessive due to precedents. They are right in that regard, but that doesn't mean they will get the sentence reduced. A new precedent is being set and it is being done with a lot of support from lots of people.
 

WoodysGirl

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514731 said:
there wer 4 incidents reported on the suspension i was under the impression he only failed to rport 2 of them.
All you need is one. The violation is not reporting an arrest. He violated it twice by not reporting two.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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And im right.

Jones’ appeal says suspension in unprecedented
By Terry McCormick, tmccormick@nashvillecitypaper.com
May 07, 2007

The basis of the appeal of the year-long suspension of Adam “Pacman” Jones will be centered around the severity of his punishment as it has related to numerous other acts and allegations involving hundreds of NFL players from the past seven-plus years.

It also leaves open the possibility of legal action if the appeals process proves unsuccessful.

The City Paper has obtained a copy of the 24-page document outlining Jones’ appeal to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell, which will be heard on Friday in New York.

The document points out the four areas for which Goodell disciplined Jones back on April 10, handing him the one-year ban, the harshest penalty any player has received for non-football related misconduct.

Those four areas for which the original one-year discipline was meted out include:

1) The felony obstruction charge from Feb. 6, 2006 of biting a police officer in Fayette County, Ga., which is still pending in the court system there after being delayed twice this year.

2) The public intoxication and disorderly conduct charges in Murfreesboro from Aug. 25, 2006 where the matter has been deferred and will be dismissed if Jones can stay trouble-free for six months.

3) Jones’ failure to report the Feb. 6, 2006 charges to the Titans or the NFL.

4) Jones’ failure to report a March 23, 2006 marijuana possession charge (later dismissed) to the Titans or the NFL.


The document states, “Among the grounds upon which Mr. Jones bases his appeal is his contention that the Decision imposed a disciplinary sanction upon him which is unprecedented in its severity, given the League’s historical treatment of offenses which are of similar or greater gravity.

“While much of the evidentiary support for Mr. Jones’ contention in this regard is a matter of public record, there remains some relevant information which is maintained exclusively within the possession and control of the League.”

What the document outlines in the appeals process is a list of more than 280 NFL players arrested or involved in incidents with police, dating back to 2000 and includes such major incidents as the double murder charges originally levied against Baltimore linebacker Ray Lewis as well as scores of other felony and misdemeanor charges, many of which were dropped or pleaded out.

The appeals document argues that punishment in these previous matters is inconsistent with the punishment handed out to Jones. It also requests that the NFL show evidence that each of these matters was reported to the respective team or the league in proper and prompt fashion, which the league alleges Jones failed to do in the two Georgia incidents from last year, a violation of the NFL’s Personal Conduct Policy.

Jones’ attorneys Manny Arora and Worrick Robinson could not be reached for comment in the matter.

Greg Aiello, vice president of public relations for the NFL, said the league would not have any public comment regarding its stance on Jones’ tactics for the appeal.

“The purpose of the appeal is to give him an opportunity to respond to the decision, and we will not comment on the process now,” Aiello said.

The appeals document concludes with a paragraph indicating that Jones might pursue other avenues to reinstatement even if the appeal back to Goodell fails. A decision from Goodell is expected within a week of Friday’s hearing.

The document reads, “As previously indicated in our correspondence dated April 27, 2007, by pursuing this appeal and thereby exhausting his administrative remedies, Mr. Jones respectfully does not concede that the Commissioner’s resolution of the appeal will constitute full, final and complete disposition of the dispute. Mr. Jones expressly reserves and does not waive any and all other legal remedies which may be available to him.”

That Aug 2006 charge is whats going to nail Goodell. Sorry but it is not all just failure to report an arrest. Two reasons given are allegations without a conviction.

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section=7&screen=news&news_id=56040
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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WoodysGirl;1514738 said:
All you need is one. The violation is not reporting an arrest. He violated it twice by not reporting two.

He gave four reasons for the suspension. He may have only needed one but it lists 4. 2 of which breach the original conduct policy.
 

joseephuss

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514740 said:
And im right.



That Aug 2006 charge is whats going to nail Goodell. Sorry but it is not all just failure to report an arrest. Two reasons given are allegations without a conviction.

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section=7&screen=news&news_id=56040

So, what will be the end result of nailing Goodell? He may reduce the suspension by a couple of games. The suspension for all practical purposes is a 10 game suspension, which can become more depending on the results of the pending cases.
 

WoodysGirl

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514740 said:
And im right.
Actually you're not.

3) Jones’ failure to report the Feb. 6, 2006 charges to the Titans or the NFL.

4) Jones’ failure to report a March 23, 2006 marijuana possession charge (later dismissed) to the Titans or the NFL.
These are primary violations to which Goodell can hang any decision on, in addition to "Conduct detrimental to the league."

That Aug 2006 charge is whats going to nail Goodell. Sorry but it is not all just failure to report an arrest. Two reasons given are allegations without a conviction.

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section=7&screen=news&news_id=56040
Goodell is not duty bound to wait until there are convictions for any discipline. That's what you completely disregard in every discussion. It was agreed to by the NFLPA and any discipline meted out was at the Commish's discretion.

And what makes it ******** is that the appeal is to be heard by the Commish. That would have to be some helluva an argument for him to overturn himself.
 

dallasfaniac

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What you have there is the document for the appeal, not the document from Goodell. Goodell might have mentioned the other incidents only as an indicator that Jones has a history of transgressions, but the suspension may only be for the failure to report an arrest.
 

5Stars

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WoodysGirl;1514749 said:
That's what you completely disregard in every discussion. It was agreed to by the NFLPA and any discipline meted out was at the Commish's discretion.


Amazing how someone will turn a blind eye to that right there! IT'S RIGHT THERE!

It's always, "no conviction, no conviction, no conviction"...over and over and over!

:rolleyes:
 

WoodysGirl

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514742 said:
He gave four reasons for the suspension. He may have only needed one but it lists 4. 2 of which breach the original conduct policy.
Actually, you're wrong again. Those 4 are the points that Pacman's lawyers are using to appeal the suspension. Not the sum total basis of why Pacman is being suspended. If you read it closely, it says "include", not "are".

These are the incidents per a post from trickblue

2005

On July 13, 2005 Jones was arrested on charges of assault and felony vandalism stemming from a nightclub altercation.

On September 5, 2005 Jones was a guest at the annual Nashville Sports Council Kickoff Luncheon. After a loud verbal tantrum when he was told to wait in line for his vehicle later that evening, Jones was counseled by the police. He also refused to pay for any valet services used that evening.

In October 2005, in a petition filed by the State of West Virginia, it was alleged that Jones had not made regular and sufficient contact with his probation officer and that he did not report his July arrest in Nashville in a timely fashion. The court ordered the probation extended for a period of 90 days, although the state requested it to be extended one year.

2006

On August 25, 2006, Jones was arrested in Murfreesboro, Tennessee for disorderly conduct and public intoxication after claiming that a woman stole his wallet. She claimed that she did not steal anything and Jones spat on her. Police officers said they ordered Jones to leave several times, but he refused, continuing to shout profanities at the woman. A judge granted him six months probation on the conditions that he stays out of further trouble and away from the nightclub.[3]

On October 26, 2006. Jones was cited for misdemeanor assault for allegedly spitting in the face of a female student from Tennessee State University during a private party at Club Mystic, a Nashville nightclub. He was suspended by the Titans for one game and was scheduled to be booked on the charge on November 17, 2006.

2007

During the 2007 NBA All-Star Game weekend in Las Vegas (Feb. 16-18, 2007), Jones is alleged to have been involved in an altercation with an exotic dancer at a local strip club. According to the club's co-owner, Jones approached the stage with a garbage bag filled with approximately $81,000[4] in one-dollar bills. Jones proceeded to throw the money into the air over the exotic dancers for a dramatic effect, an act known as "making it rain" or performing a "rain dance". Becoming enraged when one of the dancers began taking the money without his permission, Jones grabbed her by her hair and slammed her head on the stage. A security guard intervened and scuffled with members of Jones' entourage of half a dozen people, during which time Jones allegedly bit the guard on the lower leg. Jones then allegedly threatened the guard's life.[5] After the patrons of the club exited, the club owner says a person in Jones' entourage returned with a gun and fired into a crowd, hitting three people, including the security guard involved in the earlier skirmish. Although the guard was shot twice, one of the people hit, former professional wrestler Tommy Urbanski, was paralyzed from the waist down.[6] Jones maintains that he did not know the shooter, although the club's owner insists that Jones did.[7] On March 26, 2007 the Las Vegas Police recommended to the city's district attorney that Jones be charged with one count of felony coercion and also a misdemeanor count of battery and a misdemeanor count of threat to life. [8].

More trouble followed Jones after the altercation, when drug dealer Darryl Moore reported to the police after being busted during a deal about his phone conversations with Jones. "We gotta slow down, man. We gotta get him focused on football, man. He's focused on too much other ****," Moore is alleged to have said. Wiretapped phone conversations between Moore and his friends revealed Moore talking about how Jones bet on college games to earn quick money. "You know, I was talkin' to him the other day about smokin', and he was like 'man, if I didn't smoke I couldn't take all the stress that I'm dealing with right now,'" Moore said.[9]

Jones also is set to appear in a Fayetteville, Georgia court in 2007 for his February 2006 incident on subpoenas for felony and misdemeanor obstruction of justice charges for an incident outside a home. The charges of marijuana in the same state were dismissed.[10] Jones has not been connected to the Moore drug arrests or convicted for the Vegas stripper incident. But Titans management have said they will talk to Jones about his future with the Titans, and that there is always a possibility of letting him go. The NFL has issued an investigation into the situation, which is looking into setting up stricter penalties for off-field conduct.[11]


http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85266&page=3&highlight=pacman

This was from the press release declaring the suspension from Goodell...

“We must protect the integrity of the NFL,” Commissioner Goodell said. “The highest standards of conduct must be met by everyone in the NFL because it is a privilege to represent the NFL, not a right. These players, and all members of our league, have to make the right choices and decisions in their conduct on a consistent basis.”

In a letter to each player, Commissioner Goodell wrote: “Your conduct has brought embarrassment and ridicule upon yourself, your club, and the NFL, and has damaged the reputation of players throughout the league. You have put in jeopardy an otherwise promising NFL career, and have risked both your own safety and the safety of others through your off-field actions. In each of these respects, you have engaged in conduct detrimental to the NFL and failed to live up to the standards expected of NFL players. Taken as a whole, this conduct warrants significant sanction.”

These are his conditions upon being reinstated after 10 games

The specific conditions that apply to Jones’ suspension include the following:

* He must have no further adverse involvement with law enforcement.
* He must fully cooperate with all required counseling, education, and treatment assigned under league or court-ordered programs.
* He must adhere to the restrictions on his activities that have been agreed to by he and the Titans.
* He may not be at the Titans’ facility through May 31 and may not participate in any practices or organized workouts during the term of the suspension. Beginning June 1, he must visit the team facility once each week to meet with the team’s player development director. Also, beginning June 1, he is permitted to spend one day a week at the team facility for conditioning, film study, and other similar activities.
*In conjunction with the team’s player development director and other professionals working with him, Jones must develop with the Titans a structured program of community service or other activity. This program must be submitted to the league office for review and approval.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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WoodysGirl;1514749 said:
Actually you're not.

These are primary violations to which Goodell can hang any decision on, in addition to "Conduct detrimental to the league."

Goodell is not duty bound to wait until there are convictions for any discipline. That's what you completely disregard in every discussion. It was agreed to by the NFLPA and any discipline meted out was at the Commish's discretion.

And what makes it ******** is that the appeal is to be heard by the Commish. That would have to be some helluva an argument for him to overturn himself.

And what you completely disregard in your zeal for Pacman to be hammered is that this ruling was under the old conduct policy. Thus he is contractually bound to wait for a conviction. Sorry if that inconveniences your desire to see Jones punished.

Weve been over this before and youre stance then was that under the new policy he doesnt have to wait. in that you are correct but where you are misguided is in thinking that this ruling is based on the new rules. it is not.

he very well may only have needed the two unreported arrests to justify but there is again the inconvinient fact that he used 4 incidents not just the two to justify it.

you care to make a bet that goodell either backtracks or gets sued and the case actually makes it to court?
 

burmafrd

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Pacman was guilty of the charge of Aug 6. That is why they told him if he stayed out of trouble they would drop it. Point is he did it. The biting part- there is plenty of evidence of THAT. So he committed acts- there is NO dispute of that, no matter what comes out of the busted legal system.
 

AdamJT13

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514673 said:
Actually yeah he has Adam. just because 2 of the 4 incidents listed on the suspension were because of failure to report an arrest it still doesnt mitigate that none of them have resulted in a conviction. half of the incidents didnt apply to the old policy

What? You're as bad as Clay Travis. It DOES NOT MATTER matter if he was convicted or not. He got arrested, and he didn't tell the league or the team. That was a violation of the league's conduct policy and has been AT LEAST since Pacman was a 16-year-old high school player -- long before he entered the league. Per the policy itself, that constitutes "conduct detrimental to the league" and subjects him to discipline from the commissioner.

that wsa the entire case against the nfl is that this was ruled under the old policy, half of the incidents didnt have a conviction attached and it is unprecedented for two unreported arrests to result in a 1 year suspension.

As Stanley implied, has there even been a previous case of a player failing to report two arrests?

And Goodell is setting his own precedent, which is a good thing, considering the off-field behavior of many current players.
 

burmafrd

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Fuzzy once again misses the point. Goodell can pretty much do what he wants due to the new CBA. Does not matter whether the incidents happened during the new cba or the old- he has the authority to punish as he wishes. Don't know why you cannot get that. Maybe because you don't want to. Bottom line is that Pacman has time and again screwed up and Goodell is making him pay for it to the virtually unanimous applause of the players.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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WoodysGirl;1514755 said:
Actually, you're wrong again. Those 4 are the points that Pacman's lawyers are using to appeal the suspension. Not the sum total basis of why Pacman is being suspended. If you read it closely, it says "include", not "are".

These are the incidents per a post from trickblue



This was from the press release declaring the suspension from Goodell...



These are his conditions upon being reinstated after 10 games

So it may include more unfounded reasons for the suspension? in actuality the only cause Goodell has to suspend him under the old policy are the two failure to reports as NONE of all those legal trangressions has resulted in a conviction.

listing all of jones' legal problems is not very compelling when you consider there are no convictions and only 2 failure to reports. basically if goodell used any other reasons to suspend jones they violate the old conduct policy.
 

Bob Sacamano

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514766 said:
So it may include more unfounded reasons for the suspension? in actuality the only cause Goodell has to suspend him under the old policy are the two failure to reports as NONE of all those legal trangressions has resulted in a conviction.

listing all of jones' legal problems is not very compelling when you consider there are no convictions and only 2 failure to reports. basically if goodell used any other reasons to suspend jones they violate the old conduct policy.

why do you keep bringing up the old policy? that's finito
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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AdamJT13;1514763 said:
What? You're as bad as Clay Travis. It DOES NOT MATTER matter if he was convicted or not. He got arrested, and he didn't tell the league or the team. That was a violation of the league's conduct policy and has been AT LEAST since Pacman was a 16-year-old high school player -- long before he entered the league. Per the policy itself, that constitutes "conduct detrimental to the league" and subjects him to discipline from the commissioner.



As Stanley implied, has there even been a previous case of a player failing to report two arrests?

And Goodell is setting his own precedent, which is a good thing, considering the off-field behavior of many current players.

ive read the old policy where it specifically talks about violations of the policy in terms of convictions and failures to report arrests. the new policy is where goodell gets to be arbitrary. you can keep on thinking that the new policy applies but it doesnt.
 

5Stars

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514766 said:
So it may include more unfounded reasons for the suspension? in actuality the only cause Goodell has to suspend him under the old policy are the two failure to reports as NONE of all those legal trangressions has resulted in a conviction.

listing all of jones' legal problems is not very compelling when you consider there are no convictions and only 2 failure to reports. basically if goodell used any other reasons to suspend jones they violate the old conduct policy.


:bang2: :bang2: :bang2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:


Conviction! Try Comprehension!
 

WoodysGirl

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FuzzyLumpkins;1514758 said:
And what you completely disregard in your zeal for Pacman to be hammered is that this ruling was under the old conduct policy. Thus he is contractually bound to wait for a conviction. Sorry if that inconveniences your desire to see Jones punished.
Don't confuse me with those who have a thirst for blood when it comes to Pacman. Pacman doesn't pay my bills and neither does Goodell. I'm stating the points that you're incorrect in understanding. Goodell is not contractually bound to wait for a conviction. Neither was Tags. Tags PREFERRED to wait, Goodell does not. That is the difference and that's what you don't seem to understand. The discretion given to Goodell was in the "OLD" policy and upgraded in the "NEW" policy.

Weve been over this before and youre stance then was that under the new policy he doesnt have to wait. in that you are correct but where you are misguided is in thinking that this ruling is based on the new rules. it is not.
Actually, we haven't been over anything as I rarely engage you in discussion. You're getting me confused with summer and some of the other folks you have on you F.U.Z list or whatever the heck it is.

he very well may only have needed the two unreported arrests to justify but there is again the inconvinient fact that he used 4 incidents not just the two to justify it.
See my post above about the number of incidents he was involved in which caused an embarassment to the league.

you care to make a bet that goodell either backtracks or gets sued and the case actually makes it to court?
Anyone can file suit and I have no doubt that should Goodell choose not to amend the suspension that the NFL's counsel and Pacman's lawyers are fully prepared for that. The question Pacman has to ask himself, does he want to take on the NFL and the CBA, because it would be a lose-lose situation in my mind.
 
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