Cordy Glenn

[MichaelWinicki]

There is a decade of football disagreeing with you.

You do not generally succeed committing premium resources (high draft picks or large dollars) to interior OL. Not in this pass happy skill-starved age.

Interior OL are the least valued positions on the field amongst the starting 22.

But we shall see.

I know what you're saying JT.

I think the Cowboys will sign a FA guard or draft one very early on, but won't do both.

I don't think they're going to write off Arkin, Nagy, Costa, Kowalski that quickly. One of those players will probably be a starting guard this season.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Or you do neither. You bring in Nagy, Dockery, Holland, Arkin, Kosier, Kowalski and Costa and then find the best 3 to start all at a price that fits interior line.

You only have so many resources and some positions like Cb require more of them.

If we sign an OG I suspect it will be a much lower tiered guy than Nicks and will be to replace Kosier as the proven guy on the interior OL. I do not see us drafting an OG at 14 because that is not our history and would be the highest anyone has drafted a guard in a decade.

Your right JT. That could happen. That's not what I would like to see happen but it is certainly a possibility.

I do believe that the staff feels as if we have some young talent at Guard. Now, obviously, our new OL Coach might think differently but I suspect that he was brought in to develop the talent the club has as oppose to telling us what Guard we should be drafting at 14. JMO. A guy like Nicks, I could see. I don't say it's probably but if we were going to spend big money on a Guard in FA, I think it would be a player like Nicks. A young talented guy who could be a Pro Bowl type player to lock down a position for several years.

I recall when Kosier was signed. Not very many people liked that signing. He turned out to be excellent value. I can see us trying to do something similar. I see us signing an FA to start, I see us drafting another young Guard in the draft (not in the 1st round), I see us allowing Kosier, Holland and Dockery to compete for a starting job, I see us continuing to develop our young talent until such time as they can step in and start. I think that's the long term goal for this team. JMO of course.

 

[burmafrd]

There is a decade of football disagreeing with you.

You do not generally succeed committing premium resources (high draft picks or large dollars) to interior OL. Not in this pass happy skill-starved age.

Interior OL are the least valued positions on the field amongst the starting 22.

But we shall see.

actually that decade has changed in the last 5 drafts. More Interior prospects were taken in the first rd then in the first 5. Double the number. SMART teams are realizing that the interior of the O line is quite worthy of significant resources. Just look at what teams are doing it. The smarter teams.
We learned the hard way this year what happens when you have scrubs in the interior of the O line. Or I should say ROMO learned. Wonder if Jerruh did?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't really think that the approach (1st Round) has changed all that much in the last 5 years. If you look at it historically, in the last 5 years, 5 OGs were taken in the 1st round from 2007 to 2011.

Between 2001 to 2006, 4 OG were taken in the 1st round. Between 1996 and 2000, 6 OG were taken in the 1st round. Between 1995 and 1986, a period of 10 years, only 5 OG were taken in the 1st round. However, between 1985 and 1976, also a period of 10 years, 14 OG were taken in the 1st round. From 1971 to 1975, 6 OG were drafted in the first round.

If you look at the last 40 years, on average, 40 OGs have been drafted in the 1st round. However, the interesting thing about this is, with the exception of the period between 95 and 86, the trend seems to indicate that drafting OGs in the 1st round have actually decreased and not increased of late. The trend would seem to indicate that JT is correct and that teams are not putting as much value into Guard as they have in the past.

 

[jnday]

In your opinion, it's a glaring need. I don't really see it that way. I think we need to add one Guard that can start immediately. However, what I think doesn't matter. What Jerry is thinking is the key and I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe he is going to take a Guard at 14 and sign a big time FA to play Guard. I just don't see it.

There is a decade of football disagreeing with you.

You do not generally succeed committing premium resources (high draft picks or large dollars) to interior OL. Not in this pass happy skill-starved age.

Interior OL are the least valued positions on the field amongst the starting 22.

But we shall see.

Take a look at the 49ers investment in the line , and then tell me that spending the resources on the line is not worth it .

 

[dboy214]

Or you do neither. You bring in Nagy, Dockery, Holland, Arkin, Kosier, Kowalski and Costa and then find the best 3 to start all at a price that fits interior line.

RIP Romo in 2012 if they go this route.

 

[dboy214]

best 3 out of 6 scrubs. What a plan.

:laugh2:i've been liking your posting more and more lately.

 

[jnday]

Show me any evaluation that says DeCastro is the best prospect in 10 years. I hear this a lot but I have never seen it actually stated by anybody in print. It well be true but it would be nice to see this opinion confirmed by somebody who evaluates NFL talent.

I believe we do need another starting Guard but I don't believe we can afford to both draft one at 14 and sign a top FA. I don't know what the Cowboys are thinking but I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe this is what our intentions might be. You said it yourself, just as I have been saying for some time. This is a very deep draft for Guards. I could see us signing an FA and then taking a Guard later in the draft. I guess we will see what happens.

I see Burm has beat me to the DeCastro list , but nowhere in my post did I mention the name DeCastro . I was pointing out that undervaluing the line is what has gotten us in to this mess . The Cowboys and many fans still look at the line position like it was twenty years ago. The thought that you can always draft linemen later is outdated . How has the Cowboys'approach worked these last few years ? Not so good . Other teams are investing with quality picks and Dallas depends on washed up veterans and late round draft picks along with undrafted scrubs. I thought that after the sucess of Tyron that maybe people would wake up . That is not the case .
I don't want Nick at the price that it will take either . Dallas is getting out of salary cap hell , so they shouldn't get back in it . I would rather spend a couple of high picks on the line and spend the rest of the picks and salary cap money on defense .

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Take a look at the 49ers investment in the line , and then tell me that spending the resources on the line is not worth it .

I did take a look. I also took a look at New England, Baltimore and the GMen.

Here is what it shows:

Baltimore has Yanda 3rd Round Pick and Gurade FA starting.
San Fran has Rachel 2nd Round Pick and Iupati 1st round pick starting.
New England has Mankin 1st Round Pick and Waters is an FA.
Giants have Snee 2nd Round Pick and Diehl, a 5th Round Pick.

What's even more interesting is that if you look at the entire OL of all these teams, The Ravens have 3 FAs and one 3rd round pick and one 1st round pick they drafted. The Pats have 2 FAs, one undrafted, 2 1st Rd Picks of their own and 1 2nd round pick. The Giants have 2 FAs and 2 2nd round picks and a 5th Round pick of their own. No 1st round picks at all. The 49ers have 3 1st round picks, 1 2nd round pick and 1 5th round pick, all their own picks, no FAs. However, Baas from NY came from San Francisco as an FA and they let him go rather then resign him and he was their starter. They will have Chilo Rachal as an Unrestricted FA this year. It will be interesting to see what they do with him.

As I look at these teams, they seem to draft all over the place. The one thing that seems to be consistent is that the sign FAs on the OL.

I like what San Francisco has done these past few years but I would stop short of saying that they have done it the right way. Lets see what the cap dictates to them in these upcoming years and then we will know if they spent their 1st round picks wisely or not. I would rather see 1st round picks stick with the club as opposed to be somebody else's good players. JMO.

 

[ABQcowboyJR]

I see Burm has beat me to the DeCastro list , but nowhere in my post did I mention the name DeCastro . I was pointing out that undervaluing the line is what has gotten us in to this mess . The Cowboys and many fans still look at the line position like it was twenty years ago. The thought that you can always draft linemen later is outdated . How has the Cowboys'approach worked these last few years ? Not so good . Other teams are investing with quality picks and Dallas depends on washed up veterans and late round draft picks along with undrafted scrubs. I thought that after the sucess of Tyron that maybe people would wake up . That is not the case .
I don't want Nick at the price that it will take either . Dallas is getting out of salary cap hell , so they shouldn't get back in it . I would rather spend a couple of high picks on the line and spend the rest of the picks and salary cap money on defense .

So just spend our fa money on d? What's the difference between that and spending it on oline with respect to the cap?

 

[jnday]

So just spend our fa money on d? What's the difference between that and spending it on oline with respect to the cap?

The rookie salary makes a big difference . Nicks is going to want to be the highest paid guard in the league . You can pay two top rookies for what he is going to want . I think the free agent market has some good defensive players that can be had at a reasonable deal . Other than Nicks , I don't see any other guard that I would want . I see more value with getting two or three solid defensive players rather than one guard .

 

[jterrell]

Take a look at the 49ers investment in the line , and then tell me that spending the resources on the line is not worth it .

Tell me which NFL team has a guard starting that was chosen at pick 14 or higher?

Since you can't here is a little help....

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/positions/g


The last guard to be drafted 14th or higher was in 1997: Chris Naeole. Saints.
They made the playoffs 1 time from 1998 to 2008.

Iupati was drafted 17th. He was a guy we all liked around here as a Tackle prospect. If he was known as an OG only he probably get drafted later.
The 49ers have top 14 picks littering their roster because they were bad for a really long time and didnt trade out for RW11. Aldon Smith, Alex Smith, Mike Crabtree, Patrick Willis, Vernon Davis, Anthony Davis. So yea, they can use pick 17 on an OG....


Dallas doesn't have a bunch of high picks. Top 10 overall??? We have TNew and Tyron Smith. Ok so extend it to 14th pick. We add Demarcus Ware who drafted 11th. That's it man.

So you want to the take the guy who is our 4th highest draftee on the roster and use that on an OG????

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I see Burm has beat me to the DeCastro list , but nowhere in my post did I mention the name DeCastro . I was pointing out that undervaluing the line is what has gotten us in to this mess . The Cowboys and many fans still look at the line position like it was twenty years ago. The thought that you can always draft linemen later is outdated . How has the Cowboys'approach worked these last few years ? Not so good . Other teams are investing with quality picks and Dallas depends on washed up veterans and late round draft picks along with undrafted scrubs. I thought that after the sucess of Tyron that maybe people would wake up . That is not the case .
I don't want Nick at the price that it will take either . Dallas is getting out of salary cap hell , so they shouldn't get back in it . I would rather spend a couple of high picks on the line and spend the rest of the picks and salary cap money on defense .

That's true, you did not mention DeCastro but you did say this. "Why would he waste the 14th pick on the best guard prospect in the last 10 years ?"

If you are not referring to DeCastro here, to whom are you referring?

I don't really think it's fair to characterize the fan base as such. I think many of them recognize that we have not given the OL the attention it is due but as has been illustrated on this board, OL is not the only need we have and I am certainly not convinced that it is the biggest need at this point. Many, many OGs have been taken later, even recently, and have developed into quality NFL Lineman. I am not in favor of giving older players huge contracts and we did this with both Rivera and Bigg. However, we also signed Kosier and he was an excellent value. Rivera was a poor signing and Bigg did make 3 Pro Bowls in 4 years while he was here. Now, you can argue that perhaps he did not deserve them but that's a different argument. A guy like Nicks, who is clearly a Pro Bowl caliber talent, who is still young enough to play out a contract and probably get another is not a poor signing IMO. That's a good one. I am not opposed to drafting to build but I am not in favor of using our first to take a Guard this year, especially when there are several very good Guard prospects we can get later and especially when we have a chance to sign an FA who can help immediately.

Now, you can say that you may not get a Guard in FA and that's true but you can also say that you may not get DeCastro or that if you do get him, there is no guarantee he is going to be a Nicks. Unlike many, I do not share the opinion that our young OGs do not have the talent to be quality starters for us. The truth is that I don't know if they do or they don't as yet. However, I think you have to allow Callahan to make that evaluation and go from there. Either way, this is really not about what I want or what anybody else wants. My post was about what I believe the Cowboys will do. I don't think they will sign and FA and draft a Guard at 14. I am not sure they would sign a Guard at 14 regardless of what happens in FA. I just don't see a lot of indicators that support that.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The rookie salary makes a big difference . Nicks is going to want to be the highest paid guard in the league . You can pay two top rookies for what he is going to want . I think the free agent market has some good defensive players that can be had at a reasonable deal . Other than Nicks , I don't see any other guard that I would want . I see more value with getting two or three solid defensive players rather than one guard .

If you don't use FA money on a Guard, then I think it's reasonable to assume that FA money will be used on a 34 OL, which there are not a lot of options on, or a starting CB. Either of those positions are going to be more expensive then will a Guard on FA. The idea that it will cost us more is, IMO, not supported by historical fact.

 

[JBS]

Iupati was pegged as a guard from day 1...nobody here or anywhere else thought otherwise..

Outside of that, I don't have any qualms

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Iupati was pegged as a guard from day 1...nobody here or anywhere else thought otherwise..

Outside of that, I don't have any qualms

I don't agree with this. There was a lot of talk that he might be able to play ROT. I do agree that his natural position amoung most scouts in the NFL was OG but I do remember talk of OT as well.

 

[jterrell]

That's true, you did not mention DeCastro but you did say this. "Why would he waste the 14th pick on the best guard prospect in the last 10 years ?"

If you are not referring to DeCastro here, to whom are you referring?

I don't really think it's fair to characterize the fan base as such. I think many of them recognize that we have not given the OL the attention it is due but as has been illustrated on this board, OL is not the only need we have and I am certainly not convinced that it is the biggest need at this point. Many, many OGs have been taken later, even recently, and have developed into quality NFL Lineman. I am not in favor of giving older players huge contracts and we did this with both Rivera and Bigg. However, we also signed Kosier and he was an excellent value. Rivera was a poor signing and Bigg did make 3 Pro Bowls in 4 years while he was here. Now, you can argue that perhaps he did not deserve them but that's a different argument. A guy like Nicks, who is clearly a Pro Bowl caliber talent, who is still young enough to play out a contract and probably get another is not a poor signing IMO. That's a good one. I am not opposed to drafting to build but I am not in favor of using our first to take a Guard this year, especially when there are several very good Guard prospects we can get later and especially when we have a chance to sign an FA who can help immediately.

Now, you can say that you may not get a Guard in FA and that's true but you can also say that you may not get DeCastro or that if you do get him, there is no guarantee he is going to be a Nicks. Unlike many, I do not share the opinion that our young OGs do not have the talent to be quality starters for us. The truth is that I don't know if they do or they don't as yet. However, I think you have to allow Callahan to make that evaluation and go from there. Either way, this is really not about what I want or what anybody else wants. My post was about what I believe the Cowboys will do. I don't think they will sign and FA and draft a Guard at 14. I am not sure they would sign a Guard at 14 regardless of what happens in FA. I just don't see a lot of indicators that support that.

The Cowboys have always given the OL lots of attention... just not high in the draft.
They had very highly paid OL for most of the last decade with Flo, Gurode, Bigg. We signed Kosier to a 5 mil per year deal to go with that costly veteran line.

Last year we said enough and went young. But we spent our top pick at OT, signed our LT to 8 mil per and then used a couple more draft picks on the OL. And signed two veteran free agents on the cheap.

Dallas will have to add some OG help but it doesn't have to be highly prized or cost pick 14. They still have a 4th round pick from last year and a rookie who broke camp as the start on the roster.

We absolutely needed to draft some OL last year. But we did. Now we have to see if they can play. Especially before we pay someone else 8 mil per to do so.

 

[JBS]

I don't agree with this. There was a lot of talk that he might be able to play ROT. I do agree that his natural position amoung most scouts in the NFL was OG but I do remember talk of OT as well.

Nobody here had any interest in him playing RT..we didn't need a RT, Colombo was fine..we needed a guard

 

[jterrell]

Iupati was pegged as a guard from day 1...nobody here or anywhere else thought otherwise..

Outside of that, I don't have any qualms

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2010-02-25-mike-iupati_N.htm

 

[jterrell]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2010-02-25-mike-iupati_N.htm

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Wilson-Iupati-rising-up-the-draft-charts.html

Another talking about him playing LEFT Tackle in the Senior Bowl practices and how that raised his value.