Cowboys and Browns

[texbumthelife]

You implied the browns are cheap and dont care about winning......

I assure you they want to win as much as Jerry does....Jerry doesnt hold a trophy saying "wants to win more thern anybody". Everybody else wants to win.....to imply anything else, is silly, and childish.

You wipe away 20 years of failure with , "well, he wants to win more then anybody". No he doesnt!!!

Maybe we should just start giving participation trophies and giving points for "moral" victories.

The cultures of the Dallas Cowboys and Cleveland Browns are being compared in this thread. Are you telling me I am not allowed to defend the Cowboys in such a thread?

The culture of a franchise isn't determined in a year or two. It is determined over time. I am not saying anyone doesn't care about winning. That was stated by people in this thread saying Jerry doesn't care about winning:

Culture of Winning ? --- Its a culture of Delusion, entertainment, drama, and being avergae, all the while, collecting huge profits for the franchise....

I've simply called that out for what it is, baseless rubbish stated by people who either have no clue or have surrendered to emotions.

And yes, if you look back at the Browns and Cowboys since Jerry has taken over, it's pretty clear to see the Browns have been cheap over the long haul which has led to losing many promising young talents and remaining a cellar dweller

As far as your "moral trophy" argument, once again, I am simply responding to the thread. It's incredible how defending the Cowboys on a Cowboy forum can spew such hate.

 

[ringmaster]

That is because this is the first year we've been out of it this early in quite some time. I started looking at draftbreakdown in November. Most years that isn't til January or later. This team is going nowhere without Romo and the braintrust set it up as such.

Jerry Jones reminds me of Bob Bass. Jones never gets fired but Bass never failed to get jobs. He would win the hot stove and turn franchises around financially by making the starting veneer look competitive but then have no depth on the bench leaving it completely to luck whether or not they could field a competitive team.

It baffles me too. Jerry Jones championed the cap not once but twice with revenue sharing to make it work. Seems ironic that he acts like there is no cap and he can use money to fill other holes with talent that is good enough.

We're going to trade up for a QB or something stupid. Never know though Jones will surprise you. Been a dozen years but you never know.

That has always been the problem with JJ and until he steps out of the way this is what we will keep getting as fans I'm afraid regardless if Garrett, or anyone else is the HC unfortunately JJ will like Al Davis die as owner of the Cowboys only then you might see some changes taking place just like we're seeing slowly with the Raiders who will imo be a competitive team in the no so distant future this team flirts with success like the 2009, and 2014 teams that made the playoffs only to fall apart the following season and that too baffles me.

 

[KJJ]

So their fall has been due to not resigning Murray? Nothing to do with losing their franchise QB, the man who should have won MVP last season, having their best WR hobbled and/or out most of the season, coaching blunders and horrible execution?

I genuinely hope some of you learn to temper your emotional responses as time goes on This team didn't make some monumental tumble. Last year was an aberation. This is essentially the same team as those 8-8 seasons. Not having your QB for essentially the entire season is worth four losses, if you ask me.

This team certainly has glaring issues. But I think people are exaggerating how good this team was last season and expounding on that by overreacting to this season.

Part of the reason they lost Romo was due to the lack of a consistent running game that had him attempting more passes the first 2 weeks of the season than he did the first 2 weeks of last season despite playing just over a half in week 2. Romo attempted 45 passes in the opener which was more attempts than he had in any game last season. He was on pace for another 40 plus attempt game when he was injured in Philly. The Cowboys were forced to go back to being pass happy which is what contributed to those 8-8 seasons. This is what makes this team like those 8-8 teams the lack of a consistent running game that put more of the load on Romo's shoulders.

I said several times during the offseason that if Romo has to go back to throwing the ball a lot it's likely to lead to an injury, more INT's and a bad season for the team. My responses aren't based on emotion they're based on facts and having a pulse on the team from years of analyzing them. Going from 12-4 and winning the division to 4-9 with the possibility of being eliminated with 2 games left is a monumental fall from last year regardless if last season was an aberration.

This may be a worse team than the 2010 team that was dismantled. As bad as that team was the Cowboys were still able to win 5 games with a couple of backup QBs. Both Romo and Murray received 2 MVP votes last season and it's very rare for an RB to receive any MVP votes when a couple of QBs are vying for the honor. That shows just how valuable he was to the Cowboys success last season.

 

[texbumthelife]

Part of the reason they lost Romo was due to the lack of a consistent running game that had him attempting more passes the first 2 weeks of the season than he did the first 2 weeks of last season despite playing just over a half in week 2. Romo attempted 45 passes in the opener which was more attempts than he had in any game last season. He was on pace for another 40 plus attempt game when he was injured in Philly. The Cowboys were forced to go back to being pass happy which is what contributed to those 8-8 seasons. This is what makes this team like those 8-8 teams the lack of a consistent running game that put more of the load on Romo's shoulders.

I said several times during the offseason that if Romo has to go back to throwing the ball a lot it's likely to lead to an injury, more INT's and a bad season for the team. My responses aren't based on emotion they're based on facts and having a pulse on the team from years of analyzing them. Going from 12-4 and winning the division to 4-9 with the possibility of being eliminated with 2 games left is a monumental fall from last year regardless if last season was an aberration.

This may be a worse team than the 2010 team that was dismantled. As bad as that team was the Cowboys were still able to win 5 games with a couple of backup QBs. Both Romo and Murray received 2 MVP votes last season and it's very rare for an RB to receive any MVP votes when a couple of QBs are vying for the honor. That shows just how valuable he was to the Cowboys success last season.

Here's my question:

What on earth does that have to do with the subject of this thread? That has to do with play calling and game management. Clearly our running game isn't this albatross of failure so many people want to paint it as. The numbers don't lie.

This thread is a comparison of Cleveland and Dallas. One that devolved into Jerry doesn't care about winning. Jerry doesn't call the plays. He didn't design the offense. He doesn't even choose who plays and who doesn't. If you want to attack him for not bringing back Murray, so be it. However, the productivity of the run game in light of no real QB argues squarely against that.

You can try to project Murray's numbers last year onto the team this year, or, you can look at what Murray has done in Philadelphia without a great quarterback behind center and project that. It goes both ways. Once again, that has nothing to do with this thread though.

 

[KJJ]

You implied the browns are cheap and dont care about winning......

I assure you they want to win as much as Jerry does....Jerry doesnt hold a trophy saying "wants to win more thern anybody". Everybody else wants to win.....to imply anything else, is silly, and childish.

You wipe away 20 years of failure with , "well, he wants to win more then anybody". No he doesnt!!!

Maybe we should just start giving participation trophies and giving points for "moral" victories.

I'm not implying the Browns are cheap and don't care about winning all teams care about winning the NFL is a win business. The Browns clearly care about winning which is why they keep making so many changes at HC and QB. They're a mismanaged team that has no sense of direction. Their organization has no continuity due to all the changes at QB, HC and GM. They can't seem to find a formula that works and their main problem is not having a franchise QB. They haven't had a solid QB since Bernie Kosar.

 

[KJJ]

Here's my question:

What on earth does that have to do with the subject of this thread? That has to do with play calling and game management. Clearly our running game isn't this albatross of failure so many people want to paint it as. The numbers don't lie.

This thread is a comparison of Cleveland and Dallas. One that devolved into Jerry doesn't care about winning. Jerry doesn't call the plays. He didn't design the offense. He doesn't even choose who plays and who doesn't. If you want to attack him for not bringing back Murray, so be it. However, the productivity of the run game in light of no real QB argues squarely against that.

You can try to project Murray's numbers last year onto the team this year, or, you can look at what Murray has done in Philadelphia without a great quarterback behind center and project that. It goes both ways. Once again, that has nothing to do with this thread though.

If you're just looking to ***** and start an argument look elsewhere. If this is your way of getting out of the discussion we were having then don't waste your time responding to my posts.

 

[texbumthelife]

If you're just looking to ***** and start an argument look elsewhere. If this is your way of getting out of the discussion we were having then don't waste your time responding to my posts.

I replied directly to your post:

That has to do with play calling and game management. Clearly our running game isn't this albatross of failure so many people want to paint it as. The numbers don't lie.

You can try to project Murray's numbers last year onto the team this year, or, you can look at what Murray has done in Philadelphia without a great quarterback behind center and project that. It goes both ways.

Henpeck much?

 

[KJJ]

I replied directly to your post:

Yes you did you initiated and if you felt I was off topic you shouldn't have if it bothers you. No thread stays completely on topic posters stray all the time. Topics evolve into other topics it happens in every thread. In the Patmon thread posters are discussing Kellen Moore go complain to them about not staying on topic.

 

[texbumthelife]

Yes you did you initiated and if you felt I was off topic you shouldn't have if it bothers you. No thread stays completely on topic posters stray all the time. Topics evolve into other topics it happens in every thread. In the Patmon thread posters are discussing Kellen Moore go complain to them about not staying on topic.

Agreed and noted.

So, back to it than, shall we?

 

[KJJ]

Agreed and noted.

So, back to it than, shall we?

Back to the comment you made just to be clear I never projected what Murray's rushing total would be had he stayed in Dallas. He's a poor fit in Philly for their zone scheme and was a perfect fit in the Cowboys power scheme. The system he plays in doesn't fit and he hasn't been used properly. He's a rhythm back and he hasn't had near the carries to get into a groove. As for Jerry he doesn't call the plays or design the offense but he hired those who do. The buck stops with him he makes the final call on every decision the team makes.

He said just the other day Garrett has done a tremendous job and that the team has talent but those comments don't equate to a 4-9 record. The way he was talking about the backup QB position he seems to think that's the only issue and I can tell you right now the issues with the team are much deeper than the QB position.

 

[JoeBoBBY]

"The cultures of the Dallas Cowboys and Cleveland Browns are being compared in this thread. Are you telling me I am not allowed to defend the Cowboys in such a thread?"

- No I never said you couldnt. I just dont agree with the "Jerry wants to win more then the browns becuase he has spent more money" argument. We have failed just like the browns have equally, save a few season here and there.....


"And yes, if you look back at the Browns and Cowboys since Jerry has taken over, it's pretty clear to see the Browns have been cheap over the long haul which has led to losing many promising young talents and remaining a cellar dweller"

My argument was the Browns cant throw as much money around becuase they dont have pockets like Jerry does.....go read the thread.


"As far as your "moral trophy" argument, once again, I am simply responding to the thread. It's incredible how defending the Cowboys on a Cowboy forum can spew such hate"


Fair enough. But at this point when I see anything defending what has happened to the Dallas Cowboys the last 20 years, I chalk it up to losing. Losing breeds losers and the acceptance of losing. Excuses fly, and people beleive it. We are a losing franchise. Jerry can go on and on and on about how he wants to win sooo bad, and fans can point to this and point to that and this excuse and reason , etc etc etc..........................its all...."fluff". Jerry has failed. period.

To mistake critical evaulation for "Hate" is exactly what Im talking about. Cowboys Nation Loves to point the finger. Cast blame. Mara, Refs, etc etc. They love to defend Jerry and point at other franchises that arent winning either.

Wont you havent seen much of is. Self Reflection. Self Analysis. Self evualtion, without any comparions or regard to outside Cowboys Nation.

We suck just as bad as the Browns. And if you want to defend, whatever "slight" edge we may have over them, then I think thats more.................................pointing fingers, and placing blame elesewhere and defending the losing......

nothing personal. just a debate.

 

[texbumthelife]

Back to the comment you made just to be clear I never projected what Murray's rushing total would be had he stayed in Dallas. He's a poor fit in Philly for their zone scheme and was a perfect fit in the Cowboys power scheme. The system he plays in doesn't fit and he hasn't been used properly. He's a rhythm back and he hasn't had near the carries to get into a groove. As for Jerry he doesn't call the plays or design the offense but he hired those who do. The buck stops with him he makes the final call on every decision the team makes.

He said just the other day Garrett has done a tremendous job and that the team has talent but those comments don't equate to a 4-9 record. The way he was talking about the backup QB position he seems to think that's the only issue and I can tell you right now the issues with the team are much deeper than the QB position.

The Cowboys used a zone scheme almost exclusively last year with Murray. The zone stretch play was his bread and butter, and the play the keep trying to force McFadden to run, to complete failure. So I don't really get that argument. Murray also played in a zone running scheme at Oklahoma, which makes sense why he fit so perfectly from day one. If not for the injuries early in his career we might be talking about a guy as one of the better Cowboys running backs ever.

The issue is, not only was last year the exception for this team record wise, it was the exception for Murray as well. He was tremendous and managed to stay healthy most of the season, but that's not something he has managed often in his career, once again even going back to Oklahoma. To take his one year above great play, just like Dallas's one year with a great record and playoff win, and use that as the measuring stick is pretty near sighted.

Yes, Jerry is the final word on personnel. The same personnel decisions that everyone was praising him for last year and calling him executive of the year for. Garrett is an utter and complete failure. That lays at the feet of Jerry Jones, I completely agree. However, Garrett has the talent at most of the key positions and has wasted it. Jerry should move on from Garrett, but that doesn't absolve Garrett or any other coaches.

The issues with this team absolutely go much deeper than quarterback. I have said that in just about every thread possible. Even with Romo and in this atrocious division, I don't think this is better than an 8-8 team. To me, however, that is on Garrett. I don't think he could coach his way out of a paper bag. You can lay that at the feet of Jerry and claim he is too loyal and/or doesn't know what he is doing and I won't argue with you. Jerry the GM is lost 90% of the time. Jerry the owner, however, is as good as you're ever going to get. Does he have other interests? Of course, he's a business man. He is going to diversify his portfolio as many ways as possible. However, the man clearly bleeds blue and silver and it devoted to this team.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

I'd like to see Fitz get his ring as well, but it would make me giggle inside if Reid leads the Chiefs to the land the giggles couldn't go.

Nooooooo...... Lol

Much rather see Fitz win it.... Carson... Etc...

Judging by the comments I've seen the last few weeks it seems like we have become Browns fans. Except just a year ago everything was looking right. Everyone was high on the Cowboys and talking Super Bowl. Now we go to this season. We got injuries, and suspensions and our whole season has turned into turmoil. I'm bummed. I really thought this was our year. Instead I'm disappointed again. The way this forum looks though reminds me of that film "Major League", except those were Indians fans, not Browns, but their fans seem to have the same sentiment. I'm not going to link "Sad Browns Fans", but our fans look in the same boat right now.

Cowboys are out. I'm hoping a KC Chiefs vs. AZ Cardinals Superbowl.

/They should bid on getting a clapper on the sideline.
//Will go sleep off my tears now

We can never be that.... Low.... Ever.... Even if it feels like it.

While we have have some of the most embarrassing plays, games and losses in the last twenty years..... We have had things that teams like the Browns rarely ever have.... Excitement. Romo has given us some great wins, highlights.

Really, he can fill a full highlight reel with his career.

 

[texbumthelife]

I feel like you keep trying to make this accusation or assumption that I am ok with losing or don't think there is anything wrong with this team. You couldn't be more wrong.

As per the Browns versus the Cowboys in spending money, it's not just about how deep a teams pockets are. The Browns are one of the reasons why the league has a salary floor (as well as ceiling). It was like a competition between them and the Bengals for decades to see who could run out more talent and save the most money, without any focus on fielding a sustained, successful franchise. That has changed in recent years, but if you've forgotten how stingy the Browns were with their money, you may need to go back and look.

 

[JoeBoBBY]

I feel like you keep trying to make this accusation or assumption that I am ok with losing or don't think there is anything wrong with this team. You couldn't be more wrong.

As per the Browns versus the Cowboys in spending money, it's not just about how deep a teams pockets are. The Browns are one of the reasons why the league has a salary floor (as well as ceiling). It was like a competition between them and the Bengals for decades to see who could run out more talent and save the most money, without any focus on fielding a sustained, successful franchise. That has changed in recent years, but if you've forgotten how stingy the Browns were with their money, you may need to go back and look.

Fair enough Tx. I dont partuclary follow what the Browns have or havent done. I just know we havent been much better. Over the last 20 years that is....

And if the notion is the Browns werent trying and we "really" were, Im not exactly sure that is a "defense" for the Cowboys.....They are soooooooooooo inept, that when they really really "try", they still cant win. aye ya ya....

 

[bayeslife]

The Browns main issues over the years have been poor management and their inability to find a franchise QB. The Cowboys problems have been poor management and not having a solid head coach. The team has had the QB and enough talent around him to be a contender year after year but hard to develop a great team when you're trying to develop your head coach who has no business being an NFL head coach. When you have a team that's had consistent QB play over the past decade and it's only led to 4 playoff appearances and 2 playoff wins the finger has to point at the management and the coaching. The Cowboys appeared to be on the right track building a great team last season with some of the main cogs it takes to be a great team having a franchise QB, RB, WR and TE along with a great OL but they screwed it up.

They allowed arguably the teams MVP last season who was a perfect fit in the offense to walk away because they thought any back could produce behind their OL. What was the strongest part of the team last year became inconsistent forcing the Cowboys to scramble having to make several moves at the RB position during the season. The lack of a running game helped cost us Romo who had an MVP caliber season last year. The teams backup QB who was praised during the offseason by the coaching staff was a failure in replacing an injured Romo as has been the QB they traded for. Our 3 areas of strength last season RB, QB and WR became areas of weakness this season which put the defense that still lacks talent on the field too much.

Now the Cowboys are stuck without a solid RB or backup QB and Romo's career is up in the air after 2 collarbone injuries cost him most of the season. With him aging and suffering injures every year he's not likely to ever play a full 16 game season again. Dez hasn't been the same since his broken foot and who knows if he will ever be the player we saw prior to that injury and signing his big contact. Jerry has been adamant that Garrett is doing a great job despite the contrary so the Cowboys future looks pretty bleak right now.

Yeah that's a nice theory but look at how Murray is performing in Philly right now.

 

[KJJ]

The Cowboys used a zone scheme almost exclusively last year with Murray. The zone stretch play was his bread and butter, and the play the keep trying to force McFadden to run, to complete failure. So I don't really get that argument. Murray also played in a zone running scheme at Oklahoma, which makes sense why he fit so perfectly from day one. If not for the injuries early in his career we might be talking about a guy as one of the better Cowboys running backs ever.

The issue is, not only was last year the exception for this team record wise, it was the exception for Murray as well. He was tremendous and managed to stay healthy most of the season, but that's not something he has managed often in his career, once again even going back to Oklahoma. To take his one year above great play, just like Dallas's one year with a great record and playoff win, and use that as the measuring stick is pretty near sighted.

Yes, Jerry is the final word on personnel. The same personnel decisions that everyone was praising him for last year and calling him executive of the year for. Garrett is an utter and complete failure. That lays at the feet of Jerry Jones, I completely agree. However, Garrett has the talent at most of the key positions and has wasted it. Jerry should move on from Garrett, but that doesn't absolve Garrett or any other coaches.

The issues with this team absolutely go much deeper than quarterback. I have said that in just about every thread possible. Even with Romo and in this atrocious division, I don't think this is better than an 8-8 team. To me, however, that is on Garrett. I don't think he could coach his way out of a paper bag. You can lay that at the feet of Jerry and claim he is too loyal and/or doesn't know what he is doing and I won't argue with you. Jerry the GM is lost 90% of the time. Jerry the owner, however, is as good as you're ever going to get. Does he have other interests? Of course, he's a business man. He is going to diversify his portfolio as many ways as possible. However, the man clearly bleeds blue and silver and it devoted to this team.

TLR
Murray's season last year was not the rule, it was the exception.
Garrett is garbage.
This team definitely has more issues than the QB position.
Jerry is a tragedy as a GM at time, but he is amazing as an owner.

Provide an article showing where the Cowboys used a zone scheme almost exclusively with Murray last year. Not saying they didn't use a zone scheme at times but I question they used it almost exclusively because I saw an interview with Callahan last season where he said they used a power-O blocking scheme a lot where the backside guard pulls while the others pin/seal in the opposite direction. We'll never know if what Murray did last season with the Cowboys was the exception but what we do know when he was healthy he was a productive runner even during the seasons when the OL was in transition.

 

[KJJ]

Yeah that's a nice theory but look at how Murray is performing in Philly right now.

He's on a different team and is a poor system fit. He's not being utilized the same way he was with the Cowboys why can't some of you understand that? He looked a lot better with the Cowboys during the years when their OL was going through transition than he has in Philly.

 

[texbumthelife]

And if the notion is the Browns werent trying and we "really" were, Im not exactly sure that is a "defense" for the Cowboys.....They are soooooooooooo inept, that when they really really "try", they still cant win. aye ya ya....

Haha, unfortunately I can't really argue with that!

 

[texbumthelife]

Provide an article showing where the Cowboys used a zone scheme almost exclusively with Murray last year. Not saying they didn't use a zone scheme at times but I question they used it almost exclusively because I saw an interview with Callahan last season where he said they used a power-O blocking a lot where the backside guard pulls while the others pin/seal in the opposite direction. We'll never know if what Murray did last season with the Cowboys was the exception but what we do know when he was healthy he was a productive runner even during the seasons when the OL was in transition.

We don't know if it could have been the exception, but we know it was because he's never come anywhere close to that level of production any other season. Be definition, that would make it the exception.

I don't have any saved articles or know of any of the top of my head to prove the frequency with with they called zone runs last year, all I have to go by is what they've said in regards to the deficiency or McFadden in the scheme this year, as well as what the offensive coaches said last year. We can agree to disagree there. I know I saw Murray running that zone stretch play probably 10 times a games.