Cowboys struggle to draft good DBs

[Galian Beast]

No its not. Take away one player, Asante Samuel and its a push......actually we would lead with more seasons started with less players drafted and doing so with 8 less selections in rounds 1-3.

You can't take one player away, because that is the whole point. You hit on a player like Samuel, and you don't need to keep drafting players in the lesser rounds trying to strike gold. You make the proper investments and you can focus the lesser rounds on players who you want to develop and farm. The cowboys have no farm system. We take pride in the fact that we've developed some UDFAs but we are pretty poor at drafting low round draft picks, because they aren't good and we don't develop them.

 

[Zekeats]

I also thnk the constant changing of DCs has radically wounded the secondary.

First Bill Parcells, then what..Dave Campo and then Rob Ryan and then Marinelli and his predicessor OLD MAN Time..

Not to mention the changing around from 3-4 to 4-3 overall.

I don't care what anybody says..

Being a DB in either scheme is NOT the same.

It can't be.

The LBer coverages have to be different.

The safety responsibilities have to be different.

The secondary coverage calls HAVE to be different.

So stay with a scheme and go forward and draft players to fit that scheme.

We are only now doing it.

What pissed me off the most was when they changed to the 4-3. They signed Carr to a huge contract and gave up two top picks to move up for Claiborne in the first because they wanted to go man-man bump and run under Ryan and then after just one season they changed not only to the 4-3 but an off zone style for the CBs.......worst move I ever seen. Carr was actually very good-great in 2012 and netted us at least two wins with his big plays.

 

[casmith07]

Scandrick still lacks ball skills, he has terrible hands and he still does. They have improved slightly, but he still isn't great. He was always one of the more aggressive corners, but he also gets beat his fair share.

Carr lacks confidence because he is asked to take on opposing teams best receivers with no help from the secondary.

Claiborne hasn't been good even when healthy, he is beat a lot more than a top 6 draft pick should be beat. He makes plays on occasion, but is definitely beat more than he should be.

I think Wilcox had a lot more potential than any of the other guys we've drafted. Barry Church is more adequate than solid.

Agree to disagree. You've been wrong more often than you've been right on things relating to this team, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Zekeats]

You can't take one player away, because that is the whole point. You hit on a player like Samuel, and you don't need to keep drafting players in the lesser rounds trying to strike gold. You make the proper investments and you can focus the lesser rounds on players who you want to develop and farm. The cowboys have no farm system. We take pride in the fact that we've developed some UDFAs but we are pretty poor at drafting low round draft picks, because they aren't good and we don't develop them.

Dude your argument is that the Pats clearly out drafted the Cowboys which is clearly not the case with numbers provided by YOU. Your arguments are weak and your post was a waste of pointless time and I don't want to kill anymore of my own.

 

[Galian Beast]

What pissed me off the most was when they changed to the 4-3. They signed Carr to a huge contract and gave up two top picks to move up for Claiborne in the first because they wanted to go man-man bump and run under Ryan and then after just one season they changed not only to the 4-3 but an off zone style for the CBs.......worst move I ever seen. Carr was actually very good-great in 2012 and netted us at least two wins with his big plays.

To play devil's advocate it was two years, and the front office noticed a trend that was hard to miss. Finding players that could fit the 3-4 and understand ryan's scheme and formations was difficult. We were getting long in the tooth, and rather than keep trying to re-invent the wheel with the 3-4 they decided it's much easier to go with the 4-3 and they picked a scheme that was easy for players to learn and be interchangeable. I think we've seen that as well with players like Hitchens being able to step right in, and the defensive linemen we were able to plug in (not that they were great or anything).

Marinelli has shown that he can put together a defense with little to work with, where as ryan struggled to do the same. You saw Ryan initially have a lot of success in New Orleans, but it also fell apart. Only a few teams who draft really well can successfully run a 3-4.

 

[Galian Beast]

Agree to disagree. You've been wrong more often than you've been right on things relating to this team, so I'll just leave it at that.

Haha, keep telling yourself that.

 

[Galian Beast]

Dude your argument is that the Pats clearly out drafted the Cowboys which is clearly not the case with numbers provided by YOU. Your arguments are weak and your post was a waste of pointless time and I don't want to kill anymore of my own.

Double the pro-bowl years in the same amount of time... yeah... weak argument, you're right.

 

[casmith07]

Haha, keep telling yourself that.

It's in your posting history. I just don't have the time nor the desire to go back through the years and pull examples.

 

[Galian Beast]

It's in your posting history. I just don't have the time nor the desire to go back through the years and pull examples.

How convenient...

 

[CowboyMike]

What is the point of this thread?

"The Cowboys struggle to draft good DBs."

Okay. So...?

Even if you are right, what are you proposing? Should the Cowboys throw in the towel and not draft DBs? Should they just acquire DBs through Free Agency? Because so many people around here loved the Carr signing.

Yup. No use. Let's close it up. Lights out. No more DBs. Ever. That's the solution.

 

[Galian Beast]

What is the point of this thread?

"The Cowboys struggle to draft good DBs."

Okay. So...?

Even if you are right, what are you proposing? Should the Cowboys throw in the towel and not draft DBs? Should they just acquire DBs through Free Agency? Because so many people around here loved the Carr signing.

Yup. No use. Let's close it up. Lights out. No more DBs. Ever. That's the solution.

This is a forum, not a front office board meeting.

That being said, my point is that the Cowboys need to properly address both the front end and the back end by investing high round draft picks, which I think they are finally doing.

Free Agency is for plugging holes in a given year, not for solving problems, unless it is a catalytic player.

Tell me how many pass rushers we drafted since 2003 and how many secondary players in rounds 1-3 and then compare that with the Giants.

 

[Cowboyz88]

Yup. No use. Let's close it up. Lights out. No more DBs. Ever. That's the solution.

I know it's sarcasm, but it feels like the same could also be said for the QB position.

 

[Galian Beast]

Here is a list of DBs and edge rushers the giants drafted between 2003-2014 between rounds 1-3

DEs
Osi Umenyiora
Justin Tuck
Mathias Kiwanuka
Jason Pierre-Paul
Damontre Moore

DBs
Corey Webster
Aaron Ross
Kenny Phillips
Terrell Thomas
Chad Jones
Prince Amukamara
Jayron Hosley

12 players.... dedicated to rushing the passer or covering the pass...

 

[Galian Beast]

Here are our efforts in the same

DBs
Terence Newman
Mike Jenkins
Morris Claiborne
JJ Wilcox


Edge Rushers
DeMarcus Ware
Bobby Carpenter*
Anthony Spencer
Jason Williams?
Demarcus Lawrence


9 players, tons of question marks as to whether they were even edge rushers...

 

[AdamJT13]

No more than 4 pro bowl seasons? That's actually a huge difference. That is more than 2x the pro bowl seasons over the same duration of time...

Three of those Pro Bowl seasons didn't do the Patriots any good, since Samuel was playing for the Eagles by then.

 

[Galian Beast]

Three of those Pro Bowl seasons didn't do the Patriots any good, since Samuel was playing for the Eagles by then.

I wouldn't say that. Players like that give you the ability to make the playoffs consistently, and that gives you chances to win the super bowl. Exactly what we lacked. We spent entirely too much time investing in the wrong positions.

 

[AdamJT13]

Like I said, I think when we have made high investments it has worked out for the most part

Which is the opposite of what "struggle to draft good DBs" implies.

especially considering how poorly we've done with getting pass rushers.

You mean other than future Hall of Famer and perennial Pro Bowl player DeMarcus Ware, Pro Bowl player Anthony Spencer and Pro Bowl player Jason Hatcher, right?

My point was that the secondary is garbage because we have not made consistent investments in the secondary.

That's a completely different criticism. Your post should have been titled, "Cowboys don't draft enough defensive backs early." When we do draft them, we have a pretty good rate of success.

 

[windjc]

This is why I don't trust the secondary coaches. We've never had great secondary coaches, and they've really never surprised me. The only player I'd say they've successfully developed is Scandrick and it's not as if he were a richard sherman level corner.

You complain too much.

 

[Galian Beast]

Which is the opposite of what "struggle to draft good DBs" implies.



You mean other than future Hall of Famer and perennial Pro Bowl player DeMarcus Ware, Pro Bowl player Anthony Spencer and Pro Bowl player Jason Hatcher, right?



That's a completely different criticism. Your post should have been titled, "Cowboys don't draft enough defensive backs." When we do draft them, we have a pretty good rate of success.

No because we have struggled, because the investments we've actually made in the secondary have been few and far between.

Jason Hatcher was drafted as a 3-4 defensive end, and took years to develop. DeMarcus Ware and Spencer are two players, like I said earlier, you need a lot more than two players.

It's not just about drafting enough defensive backs, our numbers are almost the same as the Patriots, it's just that we haven't emphasized the position enough to put high value resources into it in the draft. As a result we've struggled to field a quality secondary consistently.

Our poor efforts in our secondary are matched by our poor efforts with pass rushers.

 

[AdamJT13]

I wouldn't say that. Players like that give you the ability to make the playoffs consistently

Players who leave and play for other teams?