Dak (and young Tony) vs elite pass defenses

[ak47kaehu]

I think a QB needs to progress, not regress from one season to the next. Dak hasn't progressed.

He has accuracy/ mechanic issues right now and I get that. Its correctable. But the transition from a college style offense to becoming a pocket passer and reading the whole field will take time. Of course there is going to be a learning curve. There are no other options at this time so you just gotta roll with it!

 

[percyhoward]

Do they have stats on foot work and awareness?

Passer rating is attempts, completions, yards, TD, and INT.

If you're into that kind of thing.

 

[Sepia]

I don't hear people saying Dak "leaves meat on the bone" and misses open receivers like I heard last year.

 

[percyhoward]

Come back to me when early Tony has this OL and a legitimate OC, instead of Jason Garrett calling plays and not being allowed even in game planning.. oh yeah and Zeke, instead of Felix Jones and Julius Jones..

Romo had the same coaches and supporting cast in the other games when his rating was 30 points higher. Maybe the issue wasn't coaches/teammates, so much as it was...y'know...the fact that those were really good defenses.

I know as well as anybody that Romo had 8 consecutive qualifying seasons in the Top 10 in passer rating, which speaks for itself. Manning, Brady, Fouts, and Young are the only others to do that. That doesn't change the fact that he struggled against great defenses all the way up to 2010, his 5th season as a starter:

first 9 career games vs. Top 5 Pass Defenses:
204 of 337 (59%) 2409 yd (7.1 ypa) 10 td 11 int 78.6

vs. all other opponents during that time (52 games)
1086 of 1706 (64%) 13572 yd (8.0 ypa) 102 td 46 int 97.0

This is what great defenses do to most QB, especially young QB. It has zero to do with differences in era, and it's certainly not a criticism of Romo.

 

[Cebrin]

The oline is also way, way better at pass blocking than Romo's line was, even this year, and Leonard Davis joined the Cowboys in 2007, so it's not like they were a well oiled machine that had played together for years like the line last year.

Not to mention the penalties, and legally deaf Flozell.

 

[CWR]

The fact that you use the Lions game as an example of a single player losing a game all by himself....it just really silly. Come on now.

So did Dak--who had a light years worse game last night than Romo did in that Lions game--single handedly lose the game?

I dont think so.
Even though he did something last night Romo never did in his whole career--that is to not account for a single TD while having a massive TD to turnover difference of -4.

Even after all that, I would not say he single handedly lost that game.

And btw, Romo played that Detroit game with broken ribs and a healing punctured lung.
330 yards, 3 TDs and 3 turnovers (so a zero differencial) maybe isnt single handedly losing a game. It was borderline heroic that he played at all.

Dear lord, do you really think my goal was to punk Romo out? I freaking love the guy but hell yes he folded like a cheap suit to end that game. Most Cowboy fans were indifferent to his final contract. Now he walks on water. He was scrutinized heavily most of his time here.
I was completely behind him, yet I am not allowed to see anything but roses shooting out of his ***? Dak was crap last night, Ive said that about twenty times now. My post was in response to someone pointing out our revisionist history of Romo. We werent always in love with the guy.

 

[diefree666]

Dear lord, do you really think my goal was to punk Romo out? I freaking love the guy but hell yes he folded like a cheap suit to end that game. Most Cowboy fans were indifferent to his final contract. Now he walks on water. He was scrutinized heavily most of his time here.
I was completely behind him, yet I am not allowed to see anything but roses shooting out of his ***? Dak was crap last night, Ive said that about twenty times now. My post was in response to someone pointing out our revisionist history of Romo. We werent always in love with the guy.

I worry that Dak is going to end up the same way as Tony- blamed and hated for things he had no control over at all

 

[diefree666]

Romo had the same coaches and supporting cast in the other games when his rating was 30 points higher. Maybe the issue wasn't coaches/teammates, so much as it was...y'know...the fact that those were really good defenses.

I know as well as anybody that Romo had 8 consecutive qualifying seasons in the Top 10 in passer rating, which speaks for itself. Manning, Brady, Fouts, and Young are the only others to do that. That doesn't change the fact that he struggled against great defenses all the way up to 2010, his 5th season as a starter:

first 9 career games vs. Top 5 Pass Defenses:
204 of 337 (59%) 2409 yd (7.1 ypa) 10 td 11 int 78.6

vs. all other opponents during that time (52 games)
1086 of 1706 (64%) 13572 yd (8.0 ypa) 102 td 46 int 97.0

This is what great defenses do to most QB, especially young QB. It has zero to do with differences in era, and it's certainly not a criticism of Romo.

against the top 5 Pas Defenses even the greats like Brady and Manning were much less successful. Its called why they play the game.

 

[CWR]

I worry that Dak is going to end up the same way as Tony- blamed and hated for things he had no control over at all

Its bound to happen. My biggest problem with Daks play was how riddiculously inaccurate he was this game. I mean I know he cant control our pathetic coaches and so on but damn his sideline WR screens were thrown to our wrs feet. It was just an off game. I still believe in the guy but Im definitely concerned. Honestly all I want out of the rest of this forsaken season is to see him progress.

 

[dfense]

Whatever with the Romo comparisons. Romo threw for over 4200 yards and 36 TD's his second year. His first year his leading rusher had 500 yards. His second year, 800 yards. Everyone on his Oline was over 30. He carried them a lot.

Dak stepped into a great situation with a great offensive supporting cast. League leading rusher, three All-Pro lineman. Not quite the same. And I'll say it again. I may be wrong, but I've yet to see Dak throw a TD in the last two minutes of a game. Yet Romo gets all the blame for the losses and Dak's problem is always Garrett. I just want to see Dak win a game without Zeke. That will make me happy.

 

[Brooksey]

Dak is not Romo and never will be regardless of what the stats you're looking at.

 

[HungryLion]

Dak is not Romo and never will be regardless of what the stats you're looking at.

This is true. They are also different style of QB.

Dak doesn’t need to be Tony, to be a good QB. He has other things he brings to the table.

They both have different strengths and weaknesses. And right now our coaches are trying to fit a Dak peg into a Romo hole.

 

[HungryLion]

Whatever with the Romo comparisons. Romo threw for over 4200 yards and 36 TD's his second year. His first year his leading rusher had 500 yards. His second year, 800 yards. Everyone on his Oline was over 30. He carried them a lot.

Dak stepped into a great situation with a great offensive supporting cast. League leading rusher, three All-Pro lineman. Not quite the same. And I'll say it again. I may be wrong, but I've yet to see Dak throw a TD in the last two minutes of a game. Yet Romo gets all the blame for the losses and Dak's problem is always Garrett. I just want to see Dak win a game without Zeke. That will make me happy.

Dak has thrown for and rushed for some go ahead TD’s with 4 minutes left.

He has also led a bunch of late game FG drives with less than 2 minutes left.

Dak did rush for a TD against the packers with less than 2 minutes left this year. Only for the defense to cough up the lead, with 1 minutes left. If you remember.

But again, I’m not saying Dak is better than Romo.

I think arguing over whether Dak or Romo we’re better as young players is altogether fruitless. I also don’t think that was the point of this thread. I think the OP is just trying to provide context that young QB’s GO THROUGH STRUGGLES. Romo was a great QB for dallas. One I loved to watch play, and even he went through growing pains and rough patches.

It’s part of a young QB’s development.

 

[CowboyRoy]

The Eagles have the league's 5th-ranked pass defense, according to passer rating. They're the 6th different Top-5 pass defense Prescott has faced in just 27+ career games. Romo did not face any Top-5 pass defenses until 2008, his 3rd season as a starter. The best pass defense Tony faced in the 2006 season was the 6th-ranked Eagles. He posted a 45.5 passer rating in that game.

As comparisons go, the similarities are eerie in this one.

Prescott
vs. Top 5 Pass Defenses (6 games)
110 of 192 (57%) 1155 yd (6.0 ypa) 6 td 6 int 72.3

vs. #6-32 Pass Defenses (21.5 games)
426 of 628 (68%) 4935 yd (7.9 ypa) 36 td 6 int 106.4

Romo
first 6 career games vs. Top 5 Pass Defenses
124 of 213 (58%) 1472 yd (6.9 ypa) 7 td 8 int 74.7

first 21.5 games vs. #6-32 Pass Defenses
315 of 475 (66%) 4198 yd (8.8 ypa) 35 td 17 int 103.8

I dont think there is any question that Romo is the better pure passer. And if I had a team with no run game and a poor Oline like we have had the last two games I would take Romo over Dak no question. But give me a playoff caliber roster or a contending type roster and Ill take Dak all day long. Romo might have put up more points on Sunday, but we still would have lost. And there is a good chance he may have thrown 6 picks. And certainly if he was the Romo of late he would have gotten killed and been out for the season.

 

[John813]

I thought it was pretty obvious what the OP was presenting.

He is not comparing their style of play, mechanics, but how they fared against top rated defenses to start their starting career.
It is not a foregone conclusion that Dak becomes a Romo/great caliber QB, nor is he trying to portray that.
All it was showing was that our current and past QB struggled to start their careers against top defenses.

Romo turned out fine. lol
Let's see how Dak turns out. We got 2+ years of watching him before they have to give him a new contract.

 

[CowboyRoy]

This is true. They are also different style of QB.

Dak doesn’t need to be Tony, to be a good QB. He has other things he brings to the table.

They both have different strengths and weaknesses. And right now our coaches are trying to fit a Dak peg into a Romo hole.

The big problem is they both have the same head coach.

 

[CWR]

Whatever with the Romo comparisons. Romo threw for over 4200 yards and 36 TD's his second year. His first year his leading rusher had 500 yards. His second year, 800 yards. Everyone on his Oline was over 30. He carried them a lot.

Dak stepped into a great situation with a great offensive supporting cast. League leading rusher, three All-Pro lineman. Not quite the same. And I'll say it again. I may be wrong, but I've yet to see Dak throw a TD in the last two minutes of a game. Yet Romo gets all the blame for the losses and Dak's problem is always Garrett. I just want to see Dak win a game without Zeke. That will make me happy.

Dead wrong. He never touched the field his second year.

 

[percyhoward]

I usually like the stats, but I just don’t see the same thing. When Romo first started to play in those preseason games, he looked different. When he took over in 2006, even with his mistakes, he looked like a different sort of passer than most of his peers. I just don’t see it with Dak the same way. He’s not dropping dimes to his WRs the same way Romo did from year one. Of course he doesn’t usually force the ball like Romo sometimes did either.

Sometimes stats don’t tell the story as Dak never has looked like the pure passer Romo flashed from the very beginning.

You missed my point, which was to show how their performances against Top-5 defenses compare to their performances against the rest of the league. That's why I broke it down according to the quality of defenses faced, instead of simply listing both players' stats after 27.5 games. I had assumed that was obvious, but you know what happens when you assume.

If you want a stat that compares the importance of each QB's passing ability to his team in their first two seasons, look at 3rd and long. The numbers below include all dropbacks and QB runs. Romo's numbers are 2006-07 only.

Conversion Rate, 3rd Down, 7+ yards to go
Romo 35% (57 of 163) 5 td 3 int 95.1
Prescott 25% (33 of 132) 4 td 4 int 78.9

 

[khiladi]

Romo had the same coaches and supporting cast in the other games when his rating was 30 points higher. Maybe the issue wasn't coaches/teammates, so much as it was...y'know...the fact that those were really good defenses.

I know as well as anybody that Romo had 8 consecutive qualifying seasons in the Top 10 in passer rating, which speaks for itself. Manning, Brady, Fouts, and Young are the only others to do that. That doesn't change the fact that he struggled against great defenses all the way up to 2010, his 5th season as a starter:

first 9 career games vs. Top 5 Pass Defenses:
204 of 337 (59%) 2409 yd (7.1 ypa) 10 td 11 int 78.6

vs. all other opponents during that time (52 games)
1086 of 1706 (64%) 13572 yd (8.0 ypa) 102 td 46 int 97.0

This is what great defenses do to most QB, especially young QB. It has zero to do with differences in era, and it's certainly not a criticism of Romo.

You like to shift the goalposts..

No an early Romo did not have the same coaches or OL his early years.. all the stats in the world don’t change these facts.

Jason Garrett was banished from play-calling after 2013. he didn’t have anywhere near this OL..

Who said it was a criticism of Romo.. your just using it as an excuse for Dak’s poor play without the real MVP on offense, Zeke.. the Philly defense had nothing to do with Dak throwing screens at WRs feet and chucking a horrible ball without planting his feet on a downfield pass to Dez..

Yeah, we also know good defenses normally make offenses play worse than when they play sucky teams.. that’s why they are good defenses.. doesn’t have any relation to proving why an offense or QB Is truly successful

 

[AzorAhai]

You missed my point, which was to show how their performances against Top-5 defenses compare to their performances against the rest of the league. That's why I broke it down according to the quality of defenses faced, instead of simply listing both players' stats after 27.5 games. I had assumed that was obvious, but you know what happens when you assume.

If you want a stat that compares the importance of each QB's passing ability to his team in their first two seasons, look at 3rd and long. The numbers below include all dropbacks and QB runs. Romo's numbers are 2006-07 only.

Conversion Rate, 3rd Down, 7+ yards to go
Romo 35% (57 of 163) 5 td 3 int 95.1
Prescott 25% (33 of 132) 4 td 4 int 78.9

I understood just fine what the point was. The comment wasn’t talking specifically about just these stats. It’s talking about the type of passer I see. The proverbial eye test.