Dak vs Rush against Zone Defense

[FanofJerry]

Can't wait for Prescott to be back. These threads are ridiculous. Moving on....

Triggered!

 

[G2]

Can't wait for Prescott to be back. These threads are ridiculous. Moving on....

They never stopped.

 

[Proof]

I recall the same small sample size argument being used in 2016. The difference then was the small sample size belonged to Dak yet he was kept in favor of Romo. Did you want to see Romo get the ball back when he returned or were you for going ahead with Dak who was on a streak?

dak looked much better than Rush, was much younger and full of potential, and Tony’s career was clearly coming to and end. Not mention his win streak was at like 8 at the time. Not particularly comparable. With all that said, I wanted Romo back

 

[Proof]

Now that I have spelled it out for everyone no one wants to respond. Odd. Seems like the main objective is the distract and dance around topics than discuss them. Argue semantics, take a polarizing stance and insult is the main objective it seems...not Dallas Cowboys. Almost as if this is about psychology and triggering than discussing the Dallas Cowboys.

In my opinion...if your true aspirations are a Super Bowl and not squeezing value out of Dak and his contract...seems like making this decision would be hard IF all the rumors around here were true.

it’s a 17 game season with a quarter already in the books. There’s not really going to be an opportunity to come to a definitive answer in the coming weeks. this isn’t madden where you can set the opposing defense in particular looks and practice against them to determine how you fare. you look at all aspects, body of work, in house practices etc and make a decision with all available information.

but yes hypothetically you want the qb who is demonstrably better against the tougher look

 

[Typhus]

Strangely enough, of the top 10 rushing teams, only the Eagles, Giants, and Packers have winning records to date. Teams seems to be shy about the 8-man box anymore. The Giants are an outlier. If there is any team to stack the box against, it's that team. They have no passing offense.

I have been calling the Giants the paper tigers of the league, they were when we played them at 2-0 and the still are now at 3-1.
Thought we exposed to the league how to beat them, just have a player like Donovan Wilson hanging around waiting for Danny Dimes to make a move and creating havoc on the way.
Was an excellent game plan and proves this Dallas D has the ability to rush the passer from several vantage points.
Q can script now at will vs opposition, and we have witnessed great adjustment that never used to exist.
Vs Skins they triple teamed MP for a series or two, and adjusted out of it, and cleared rushing lanes for players keyed like Donovan running free.
Q can change the vantage point of rush on a dime now, thats what makes this defense dangerous, giving up a few big runs in the process is part of it though.

 

[FanofJerry]

it’s a 17 game season with a quarter already in the books. There’s not really going to be an opportunity to come to a definitive answer in the coming weeks. this isn’t madden where you can set the opposing defense in particular looks and practice against them to determine how you fare. you look at all aspects, body of work, in house practices etc and make a decision with all available information.

but yes hypothetically you want the qb who is demonstrably better against the tougher look

Good answer. No distracting, dancing around, taking a polarizing stance or insulting.

 

[xwalker]

Two high safeties isn’t necessarily zone. It’s not zone that Dak struggles to beat. He struggles beating 7 guys in coverage. Whether it’s man or zone. Dak is good vs the blitz but hasn’t been able to adjust to the two high safety look teams are now throwing out there across the entire league. And it’s not just Dak that is struggling vs that defense, many other qbs are as well. This team knows it needs to run the ball well , that’s how you get these defenses out of these 2 high looks. That’s what Dallas needs to do.

Thank you for the response. You made it easy to understand.

If you had all the info on the situation(Dak vs Rush capabilities and flaws) with a defense performing like ours...would you roll with which ever one is better at beating the 2 High look in playoffs? Or do you roll with your 40M starter even if he might not have learned to beat the 2 High look yet?

Basically my question is with our defense(assuming it is top 5 in league leading up to playoffs) do you go for a Championship with the player that has shown to beat the 2 High look better which you would assume gives you a better shot at a SB? Or do you roll with your starter?

This is a scenario where if coaches believe Rush is better decision maker against 2 High than Dak.

The Cowboys must run the ball effectively to win consistently regardless if Rush or Dak at QB.

The 2-deep Safety look is weaker vs the run.

Basically Dak forces defenses into a weak run defense alignment.

The Cowboys won all games last season when they rushed for over 100 yards.

They lost all games when they rushed for less than 78 yards.

At this point the stats for Rush point to a backup that has met expectations for a good backup QB but nothing indicates he should be a starter.

The defense has held opponents to an average of 14 points per game. If any team does that for a full season, they'll almost always be a playoff team.

Regardless of opinions on Dak, there is nothing to indicate that Cooper Rush would be a quality NFL starting QB.

 

[Irv88]

It's not the player that makes the more exciting plays, it's the one that makes the least mistakes is the one that you want. - Jimmy Johnson

 

[FanofJerry]

The Cowboys must run the ball effectively to win consistently regardless if Rush or Dak at QB.

The 2-deep Safety look is weaker vs the run.

Basically Dak forces defenses into a weak run defense alignment.

The Cowboys won all games last season when they rushed for over 100 yards.

They lost all games when they rushed for less than 78 yards.

At this point the stats for Rush point to a backup that has met expectations for a good backup QB but nothing indicates he should be a starter.

The defense has held opponents to an average of 14 points per game. If any team does that for a full season, they'll almost always be a playoff team.

Regardless of opinions on Dak, there is nothing to indicate that Cooper Rush would be a quality NFL starting QB.

Awesome response. Thanks, dude.

I dont understand why we supposedly dont run as much with Dak, though...IF the lopsided passes with him are true and teams are running a cluttered secondary. IT TRUE...seems like you would run more. Unless Dak is supposed to be abusing the cluttered secondary with short underneath routes for 5 or so yards. If that makes sense. But i dont have the exact numbers.

Also...can you put your name on it?...are all the rumors or suggestions that Dak is unable to throw guys open, Dak is indecisive leading to pump fakes, late throws or sacks, Dak is unable to read a defense or Dak is scared to throw into tight spots....all that is just troll haters that are basing that on nothing? And Im not asking you that because I think they have an argument...I genuinely asking your opinion of those common talked about Dak flaws.

For the record...I have posted in other threads saying I think Dak should have the starting spot back based solely on 6 years of production over a few games from Rush. Dak may never end up figuring this cluttered secondary out and Rush might end up proving to be a better QB at beating.

 

[FanofJerry]

It's not the player that makes the more exciting plays, it's the one that makes the least mistakes is the one that you want. - Jimmy Johnson

Dak or Rush?

Youre a proven bot if you dont respond.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Here is a quick breakdown of zone coverage each team has played against the Cowboys so far, per PFF.

Tampa - 80% zone coverage
Cincinnati - 67% zone coverage
NY - 55% zone coverage
Washington - 82% zone coverage

The average around the league is some form of zone defense on about 70% snaps this year. It's just a zone based league anymore, no real getting around it. The team that plays the most is the Rams, coming in at close to zone on 90% of their snaps, so that will be something to watch this week. The only team in the league to play more man coverage than zone has been Detroit FWIW.

Interesting. Last year, the Cowboys were kings of Cover 1.

 

[xwalker]

Awesome response. Thanks, dude.

I dont understand why we supposedly dont run as much with Dak, though...IF the lopsided passes with him are true and teams are running a cluttered secondary. IT TRUE...seems like you would run more. Unless Dak is supposed to be abusing the cluttered secondary with short underneath routes for 5 or so yards. If that makes sense. But i dont have the exact numbers.

Also...can you put your name on it?...are all the rumors or suggestions that Dak is unable to throw guys open, Dak is indecisive leading to pump fakes, late throws or sacks, Dak is unable to read a defense or Dak is scared to throw into tight spots....all that is just troll haters that are basing that on nothing? And Im not asking you that because I think they have an argument...I genuinely asking your opinion of those common talked about Dak flaws.

For the record...I have posted in other threads saying I think Dak should have the starting spot back based solely on 6 years of production over a few games from Rush. Dak may never end up figuring this cluttered secondary out and Rush might end up proving to be a better QB at beating.

Regardless of where Dak ranks, Cooper Rush is not a good answer as a full season or long term starting QB.

I would trade Dak and Cooper Rush plus some draft picks for Justin Herbert if I had that option.
- Having said that, most NFL teams would trade their QB for a young QB like Herbert.

The Cowboys were 1st in points scored and 2nd in passing yards in 2021.
- In 2022, they were leading the league by almost 300 yards in passing at the point Dak got injured.
- Those stats don't happen with a 'bad' QB.

Rushing Attempts (includes all players):
- 2021: 28 per game
- 2022: 26 per game

The Dak critics claimed that he is a dink & dunk QB.
- Then Denver showed that the best defense against Dak is the 2-deep Safety looks.
- That's the opposite coverage to contain a dink & dunk QB.
- i.e. The critics claims of dink & dunk were completely wrong.

Dak does tend to be conservative with regards to waiting for open receivers.
- He becomes more aggressive in the 2nd half of games if they're behind on the scoreboard.
- Aikman often used that approach back in the day.

I don't have the numbers, but I think the Next Gen stats have shown that Dak is very good in tight window passes.

 

[McMicah]

Awesome response. Thanks, dude.

I dont understand why we supposedly dont run as much with Dak, though...IF the lopsided passes with him are true and teams are running a cluttered secondary. IT TRUE...seems like you would run more. Unless Dak is supposed to be abusing the cluttered secondary with short underneath routes for 5 or so yards. If that makes sense. But i dont have the exact numbers.

Also...can you put your name on it?...are all the rumors or suggestions that Dak is unable to throw guys open, Dak is indecisive leading to pump fakes, late throws or sacks, Dak is unable to read a defense or Dak is scared to throw into tight spots....all that is just troll haters that are basing that on nothing? And Im not asking you that because I think they have an argument...I genuinely asking your opinion of those common talked about Dak flaws.

For the record...I have posted in other threads saying I think Dak should have the starting spot back based solely on 6 years of production over a few games from Rush. Dak may never end up figuring this cluttered secondary out and Rush might end up proving to be a better QB at beating.

So no one on this forum will ever know what the coaches and players know (obviously), but there were multiple reports that Dak checks out of run plays often, which might explain more running with Coop. Even Kellen himself said it in an interview I believe. Now, it also might have been well masked defensive schemes. Who knows.

obviously sample size is too small on Coop to talk controversy, and I personally have struggled letting Daks one game (which was objectively doodoo) impact my opinion of him, so I’m letting small sample size impact me in multiple ways.

That said, I think in general, Dak saw more blitzes early in his career (which he excels at), and has seen more zone since the run game lost strength. It’s hard for any qb, but I will say this: beating zone effectively requires the anticipation of breaks and timing to hit a guy in stride between defenders. I don’t think it’s unfair to say Dak needs work here, in both anticipation and ball placement.

I honestly think Dak is overthinking sometimes and second guesses his instincts, or maybe doesn’t trust the receivers. I don’t know, but I do know his release often seems to be when receivers are the most open, which is not good, because when the ball arrives the receiver will be less/not open or about to get railroaded by a safety. Cooper just seems to be running the offense as designed like a rookie. He kinda plays like he has nothing to lose (cause he doesn’t) and just throws according to where the receiver should be, and more often than not, they magically are. I hope when Dak comes back he takes a step back to rookie Dak and just runs the offense and trusts his teammates and his own instincts.

 

[khiladi]

Whats the word on Dak vs Cooper playing against zone defense up to this point?

Or...have teams being trying to fluster Cooper with Blitz to hurry him up and havent thrown much Zone at him?

I ask because...if Zone if Daks kryptonite...and Rush displays better zone beating ability...would you not roll with Rush with a defense like Dallas performing the way it is? Seems like this defense could take you to the promise land.

I am all for Dak being given the opportunity to prove himself against zone again. But if the constant talk on here is true about Dak being awful against zone...then you know defenses are going to throw that at him non-stop in playoffs. If that was the case but Rush displays better zone beating skills...would you not roll with Rush?

I assume Rush hasnt been hit with tons of zone yet to know if he is capable or not?

His fanboys are trying to make up new excuses for him, like it’s a new league-wide trend of teams defending other QBs in a similar way. Dak has always struggled against zone and he goes into a conservative shell. He’s just had a top notch OL and RG that could force more single safety looks over the course of his career.

https://sportdfw.com/2018/10/24/dallas-cowboys-zone-coverage-is-daks-kryptonite/amp/

https://www.sportsinfosolutions.com...-amari-cooper-face-challenge-with-colts-zone/

He actually sucks majorly last year when teams showed defenders in box, but would drop into zone, because he can’t read a defense. So it screws up his reads. And he doesn’t know what to do.

 

[khiladi]

Naturally if teams start playing you differently, it takes some time to adjust. With guys like Mahomes, when they tried more cover 2 shells over the course of the season in 2021, this is what happened.



https://www.arrowheadpride.com/plat...figuring-out-playing-against-cover-2-defenses

Conparing this time a guy like Dak who throughout his career struggles against zone is asinine.

 

[FanofJerry]

So...xwalker and khiladi...which is the better player to take us to the promise land this year...assuming our defense is top5 with no major injuries?

 

[FanofJerry]

khaladi...are your eggs in the Dak or Rush basket?

If Dak sucks at the "zone" which is supposedly a new league wide wrinkle...are you signing your name to Rush as being the better QB to take us to the promise land this year?

 

[khiladi]

So...xwalker and khiladi...which is the better player to take us to the promise land this year...assuming our defense is top5 with no major injuries?

IKO, we aren’t going anywhere as in most likely a 1 and done, but I’d roll with Rush. We play more organized systematic offense under Rush, meaning it’s better for the development of the young players, especially WRs and OL, with a guy like Rush who has much better pocket presence too.

Then try and draft a franchise QB.

Plus, I want the Dak experiment over.

 

[khiladi]

khaladi...are your eggs in the Dak or Rush basket?

If Dak sucks at the "zone" which is supposedly a new league wide wrinkle...are you signing your name to Rush as being the better QB to take us to the promise land this year?

Daks flaws against zone, are because he’s an early read QB. Even Witten said this latter part in the booth when he used to announce. He doesn’t go through his progressions properly and gets ansy. He can’t anticipate well and is slow processing. It is not new for him, the problem for defenses was the OL and RG, as this forced opposing defenses out of coverage looks. They were more than willing to let Dak try and beat them through the air. Now they don’t bother as much anymore, especially with Zeke losing a step.

The fact is QBs will struggle more throwing against a zone, because it’s meant to defend against the pass. QBs aren’t going to get the cover 2 shell treatment regularly if you can run the ball. The problem for elite QBs is more so their PC become too reliant on the pass, they completely ignore the run.

Look at how we played defense against young Hurts last year, Quinn has his DBs in the facd of of Eagles WRs, while brining the blitz, while when we played Herbert, Quinn had his guys in cover 2 shell and his DBs playing off. If Herbert saw the treatment Hirts saw, he’d probably throw for 500 yards. Romo regularly got to cover 2 treatment.

 

[khiladi]

I recall the same small sample size argument being used in 2016. The difference then was the small sample size belonged to Dak yet he was kept in favor of Romo. Did you want to see Romo get the ball back when he returned or were you for going ahead with Dak who was on a streak?

Romo was lighting it up in practice per reports. And he had the chance to play with Zeke. The excuse was Dak doesn’t practice well, but has the “it” factor while he sucked against the real defense of the Giants and Vikings.

Dak and Rush were not anywhere near as far apart as Dak was with Romo.

Dak and Rush are probably closer to the same, meaning it was way stupider to not start Romo, then it is to continue with Rush. Even with Rush, he died things that are quantifiable that are much better than Dak. But Dak did nothing better than Romo at all. Some vague ‘it’, which means hip with the younger guys, doesn’t count.