Dak vs Rush against Zone Defense

[FanofJerry]

IKO, we aren’t going anywhere as in most likely a 1 and done, but I’d roll with Rush. We play more organized systematic offense under Rush, meaning it’s better for the development of the young players, especially WRs and OL, with a guy like Rush who has much better pocket presence too.

Then try and draft a franchise QB.

Plus, I want the Dak experiment over.

At least you put your name on it.

You want the Dak experiment over after having a very successful couple of years with people calling it most efficient offense ever because.....hes been exposed? Genuinely asking if its because of the constant posts on this very forum saying Dak was figured out against Denver and now teams our using the dropped/cluttered secondary?

 

[khiladi]

At least you put your name on it.

You want the Dak experiment over after having a very successful couple of years with people calling it most efficient offense ever because.....hes been exposed? Genuinely asking if its because of the constant posts on this very forum saying Dak was figured out against Denver and now teams our using the dropped/cluttered secondary?

I’ve been saying these are Dak’s flaws for years, way before Denver, even during the “most efficiency offense ever”. I would point this out clearly that Dak is getting away with a lot, because of the OL and RG forcing someone much single-safety high looks. I called it a paper-tiger then and in reality, the only people saying it happened after Denver are folks trying to save face for riding the Dak train for so long. There is nothing new in these arguments. Like I said, there are articles going back to 2018 saying how Dak struggles against zone.

 

[FanofJerry]

I’ve been saying these are Dak’s flaws for years, way before Denver, even during the “most efficiency offense ever”. I would point this out clearly that Dak is getting away with a lot, because of the OL and RG forcing someone much single-safety high looks. I called it a paper-tiger then and in reality, the only people saying it happened after Denver are folks trying to save face for riding the Dak train for so long. There is nothing new in these arguments. Like I said, there are articles going back to 2018 saying how Dak struggles against zone.

xwalker...any response to this?

 

[khiladi]

Like I said before, when people were riding Barkley’s jock, the Giants drafted him because teams were just dropping into cover 2 deep against Manning and the Giants. But the drafting of Barkley didn’t do what it intended. Guys like Barkley are home run hitters, but can’t run consistently like a prime Zeke. This is why Barkley would get a lot of negative yard runs, both in college and the pros.

Dak never had that problem, as the OL and RG forced teams into the box. What Denver really exposed last year is they didn’t have to rush more than 4 to get pressure and this started happening consistently, where it became patently obvious. It was obvious that as the RG deteriorated in Dallas and the OL play was no longer elite and Dak had to play behind blocking that your average QB on a weekly basis played with, he would truly be exposed. Teams showed man in the box and just dropped into zone.

Call it a "soft zone" or a "Cover 2," but the defense opponents continue using against the Giants needs to be called something else in the locker room.

"That's something we have to take personal," running back Saquon Barkley said. "When we see a team playing Cover 2 and soft zone that has to be disrespectful to us. That's something we are aware of, and we hope to solve that problem really soon."

The time-tested counter-attack to defenses dropping two safeties high to eliminate downfield throws and force an offense into taking underneath routes is to establish a consistent running game.

Saying it’s a ‘new trend’ is really nonsense. A couple years back, defenses in order to slow down McVay’s offense started playing much more deep cover 2. McVay had a tendency to completely abandon the run, plus Goff wasn’t a good progression QB either. That slowed their offense down.

The other point here is, of course a Qb, even elite, is not going to pass as well against a coverage that is meant to take away the deep passing game. The difference though is he isn’t going to suck like Dak and if he has an OL and RG like Dak, the defense would be putty in his hands, because the defense would be forced to pick its poison.

https://www.nj.com/giants/2018/10/saquon_barkley_giants_need_to_see_soft_zone_covera.html

https://nypost.com/2019/11/25/saquon-barkleys-rare-flaw-is-rearing-its-ugly-head/amp/

 

[FanofJerry]

Like I said before, when people were riding Barkley’s jock, the Giants drafted him because teams were just dropping into cover 2 deep against Manning and the Giants. But the drafting of Barkley didn’t do what it intended. Guys like Barkley are home run hitters, but can’t run consistently like a prime Zeke. This is why Barkley would get a lot of negative yard runs, both in college and the pros.

Dak never had that problem, as the OL and RG forced teams into the box. What Denver really exposed last year is they didn’t have to rush more than 4 to get pressure and this started happening consistently, where it became patently obvious. It was obvious that as the RG deteriorated in Dallas and the OL play was no longer elite and Dak had to play behind blocking that your average QB on a weekly basis played with, he would truly be exposed. Teams showed man in the box and just dropped into zone.





Saying it’s a ‘new trend’ is really nonsense. A couple years back, defenses in order to slow down McVay’s offense started playing much more deep cover 2. McVay had a tendency to completely abandon the run, plus Goff wasn’t a good progression QB either. That slowed their offense down.

The other point here is, of course a Qb, even elite, is not going to pass as well against a coverage that is meant to take away the deep passing game. The difference though is he isn’t going to suck like Dak and if he has an OL and RG like Dak, the defense would be putty in his hands, because the defense would be forced to pick its poison.

https://www.nj.com/giants/2018/10/saquon_barkley_giants_need_to_see_soft_zone_covera.html

https://nypost.com/2019/11/25/saquon-barkleys-rare-flaw-is-rearing-its-ugly-head/amp/

Youre making sense to me. I just dont know what all is true or proven.

xwalker...any response to this?

I dont like being the facilitator of this...but you two seem to be two of the more respected on this site of opposing views of the situation.

 

[FanofJerry]

khiladi...your for sure take is that Dak sucks at a cluttered/drop coverage and that Rush seems to have better skills to beat it?

Please dont include contract talk which muddies the conversation.

 

[JBS]

Here is the exact answer

Cooper Rush has the worst splits in the nfl vs 2 high safeties vs non 2 high safeties..so no, he’s not any better than Dak at beating this defense

Joe Borrow has the second worst split in the nfl

 

[khiladi]

That it’s not the exact answer.

Cover 2 isn’t the only zone coverages and the Bengals only ran cover 2 on 5 percent of their snaps against Dallas which amounts to 1.33 snaps. This doesn’t in anyways prove that Rush is equivalent to Dak against zone.

Further just to give perspective, against the Steelers, Burrow faced cover 2 17 times, which was close to 15% of the snaps, obviously to try and counter Chase and Burrow.