Dallas Mavs Playoff thread

[Stautner]

In today's game, that's dirty. In the game that used be played in the NBA, that's just a hard foul.

That's completely bogus. A cheap shot and playing dirty has always been recognized as such. Heck, I recall a lot of people calling Laimbeer dirty for things that were a peice of cake compared to what happened to Barrera.

I think you are mistaking the fact that simply because this kind of thing may have happened in the past without severe penalties from the NBA that somehow it was considered acceptible. It was not.

NBA players expect and accept a certain amount of physical play, and even hard fouls, but what happened to Barrera has never been considered anything but dirty and a cheap shot.

 

[MC KAos]

its pretty bad, i dont know that he doesnt get ejected even in the 80s

 

[MC KAos]

if he wanted to make a statement he could have easily gone up and knocked him on his *** after going for the ball with his body, not an elbow.

ps i cant believe he still hit that shot! what a beast

 

[peplaw06]

Ummm no. It was on the same level as Odom's shove. Take off your homer glasses.

No it wasn't... Blake had the ball, Dirk didn't.

 

[Stautner]

its pretty bad, i dont know that he doesnt get ejected even in the 80s

Of course he would get ejected in the 1980's. The only possible way to stay in a game with a fold that hard is if there was at least a pretense of it occurring while making an attempt to block the shot or steal the ball. To just take a person out while hanging helplessly in the air without even a show of an effort to make a legitimate play would have resulted in an ejection without hesitation.

 

[MC KAos]

No it wasn't... Blake had the ball, Dirk didn't.

the odom one really wasnt that bad, i think he only got ejected because of the in game situation and i think the refs felt it was about to get chippy. and at least he was very apologetic after the game! after all, i dont think he wants to lose dfw viewership for kloe and lamar!

 

[MC KAos]

this was pretty good one too

http://i137.***BLOCKED***/albums/q225/kennerguy66/a53jxah.gif

 

[danielofthesaints]

this was pretty good one too

http://i137.***BLOCKED***/albums/q225/kennerguy66/a53jxah.gif

LOL. Throat shot!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I can't really recall off the top of my head where any of those guys did much that was in the same realm what happened to Barrera. The obvious instance was Kermit Washington punching Tonjanovich in the face, which is certainly a worse offense and was punished accordingly. In general, however, my recollectioin is those guys did things that would send a message or cause some pain, not potentially result in serious injury. They hacked, they bupped, they pushed, they threw an elbow to the side, and they made sure that someone driving to the backet was going to make contact with them en route, but they didn't take out a guy hanging in the air.

Nevertheless, of course that kind of thing has happened at times, and and there may even be times that i don't recall that happening with those guys, but whether it was those guys or anyone else did something like what happened to Barrera, it was a cheap shot then just as it is now, and every player knew it as such. The fact that the NBA may not have imposed the same kind of penalties back then did not make it more acceptible among basketball players.

Kareem punched Kent Benson in the face in a playoff game in the 70s.

This was McHale on Rambis. Kurt Rambis landed on his head and I think it might have only been a technical. Lakers were leading that series and this foul completely changed the entire game and series. Boston came back and won. Lakers went out and got Lucas the very next year.

Here's Rick Mahorn on Jordan in the 89 series and it was just a foul.

This is Kidd against Pargo in 2008. It was a flagrant foul 2. On this play, Kidd gragged Pargo's head and basically flipped him on his head. Never made a play for the ball.

Here's Laimbeer tomahawking Jordan and I mean, that series was full of hard fouls. Way more then this one.

Here's Stackhouse (Mavs) on Shack and there is zero play for the ball here in 2006.

Here's Kobe getting closelined by Raja Bell.

There have been a lot worse fouls in the League. I'm just saying that hard fouls have been a part of the game for a long time. Call them dirty, part of the game, whatever. It is part of the game and it does have an effect in certain situations. As I said earlier in this thread, this kind of play didn't really help the Lakers because the Mavs just beat them at every turn. I'm just saying that that play was not nearly the worst I've ever seen.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

you are probably right, but we gotta go by the way the game is played now, not back then. specially considering bynum is in his early 20s, he grew up watching shaq and duncan, he knows better.

That's fair and I don't disagree at all but even the other night, I saw the Heat give fouls that were just as bad IMO and they nothing. I think in 2007 Steve Nash got abused on the sideline by San Antonio and nothing at all was called. San Antonio went on to win.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's completely bogus. A cheap shot and playing dirty has always been recognized as such. Heck, I recall a lot of people calling Laimbeer dirty for things that were a peice of cake compared to what happened to Barrera.

I think you are mistaking the fact that simply because this kind of thing may have happened in the past without severe penalties from the NBA that somehow it was considered acceptible. It was not.

NBA players expect and accept a certain amount of physical play, and even hard fouls, but what happened to Barrera has never been considered anything but dirty and a cheap shot.

No, your wrong. I am not mistaking anything. Yeah, all of those guys were dirty and they played the game as enforcers and they all had long and successful careers in the NBA because it was a part of the game. Had it not been, they would have been out of the game quickly.

 

[MC KAos]

That's fair and I don't disagree at all but even the other night, I saw the Heat give fouls that were just as bad IMO and they nothing. I think in 2007 Steve Nash got abused on the sideline by San Antonio and nothing at all was called. San Antonio went on to win.

horry hip checked him into the scorers table, he was suspended 2 games, and it wasnt that bad, nash flopped a bit to make it more dramatic. too bad it backfired tho got his teammates suspended, lol

 

[Stautner]

No, your wrong. I am not mistaking anything. Yeah, all of those guys were dirty and they played the game as enforcers and they all had long and successful careers in the NBA because it was a part of the game. Had it not been, they would have been out of the game quickly.

I would strongly disagree that what happened to Barea was just considered part of the game back then. It was just something the league didn't punish as vigorously.

The problem is, you are tying the severity of league punishment to acceptance, and that's just not accurate. There was a time the NFL didn't penalize for chop blocks, but there was never a time that chop blocks weren't considered cheap shots.

Maybe the disagreement is just in a difference in viewing standpoint.

League punishment, and what is acceptible among basketball players are not the same thing. What I am saying is that while the league was less harsh in their punishment of these players in those days, there was a line of physical play that could be crossed that everyone would agree was a cheap shot andn ot acceptible.

The acceptibility of physical play and hard fouls is not limitless. Bumping, bruising, hacking and even to a degree elbowing are all acceptible, but intentionally taking an action that is soley directed at causing serious injury is not, and never has been. Elbows to the body are acceptible, elbows to the face are not. Making hard contact to get position and undercutting a guy is acceptible (though scarey), but intentionally taking a guy's legs out in mid air is not. And as with Barea's case, going hard for a block or steal or just movong into his path and creating contact as he drives for the basket is acceptible, but driving a forearm into him while he is defenseless in mid air and flipping him to where he is landing on his head is not. And none of this is new.

 

[DFWJC]

thats awesome! i hope to take my son to a spurs game next year or the year after, maybe by then good seats will be cheap since we will suck! haha.

did she say anything about why craig sager wears those ridiculous suits?:laugh2:

:laugh2: That would have been a good question.

I've met Kenny Smith (fellow Tarheel) several times, so I had some questions about him. I accuse Kenny of being totally biased against teams with good white players. lol He has an inner city bias going sometimes--kind of like Jalen Rose and Webber. Those guys really have a hard time giving anyone credit outside thier little unwritten brotherhood.

Barkley, on the other hand, just calls it as he sees it. Sometimes, I agree, sometimes I don't. I do not agree with some newspaper articles lately saying Barkley was always a major Dirk basher and is finally coming around. He's always given Dirk props, but just used to say (truthfully) that Dirk is awesome but for the Mavs to go forward they need some tough (and talented) guys around him....he's not Karl Malone afterall. So, I've always thought Barkely was pretty fair with Dirk....and of course this season (even before the playoffs) he is huge fan.

 

[MC KAos]

:laugh2: That would have been a good question.

I've met Kenny Smith (fellow Tarheel) several times, so I had some questions about him. I accuse Kenny of being totally biased against teams with good white players. lol He has an inner city bias going sometimes--kind of like Jalen Rose and Webber. Those guys really have a hard time giving anyone credit outside thier little unwritten brotherhood.

Barkley, on the other hand, just calls it as he sees it. Sometimes, I agree, sometimes I don't. I do not agree with some newspaper articles lately saying Barkley was always a major Dirk basher and is finally coming around. He's always given Dirk props, but just used to say (truthfully) that Dirk is awesome but for the Mavs to go forward they need some tough (and talented) guys around him....he's not Karl Malone afterall. So, I've always thought Barkely was pretty fair with Dirk....and of course this season (even before the playoffs) he is huge fan.

thats very true, i reminds me a lot about boxing, in my family, there is a lot of bias towards hispanic boxers, and its the same way with other races. i think for people that grew up in the inner city its hard to fathom a good white or suburban ball player they see them as soft. i know this first hand, my mom lives in newark and when i play ball with them they think i am soft, unfortunately, they are right

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I would strongly disagree that what happened to Barea was just considered part of the game back then. It was just something the league didn't punish as vigorously.

The problem is, you are tying the severity of league punishment to acceptance, and that's just not accurate. There was a time the NFL didn't penalize for chop blocks, but there was never a time that chop blocks weren't considered cheap shots.

Maybe the disagreement is just in a difference in viewing standpoint.

League punishment, and what is acceptible among basketball players are not the same thing. What I am saying is that while the league was less harsh in their punishment of these players in those days, there was a line of physical play that could be crossed that everyone would agree was a cheap shot andn ot acceptible.

The acceptibility of physical play and hard fouls is not limitless. Bumping, bruising, hacking and even to a degree elbowing are all acceptible, but intentionally taking an action that is soley directed at causing serious injury is not, and never has been. Elbows to the body are acceptible, elbows to the face are not. Making hard contact to get position and undercutting a guy is acceptible (though scarey), but intentionally taking a guy's legs out in mid air is not. And as with Barea's case, going hard for a block or steal or just movong into his path and creating contact as he drives for the basket is acceptible, but driving a forearm into him while he is defenseless in mid air and flipping him to where he is landing on his head is not. And none of this is new.

Not at all. In fact, I said that it's a different time, a different game. I simply said that it was not as bad a foul IMO as many seemed to think. I've seen much, much worse and I've seen as bad, fairly recently that didn't get anything. To me, there is very little consistency in the League today. You can say that it was a bad foul and that's OK but I am telling you that I saw very similar stuff this year go on with very little response by the league.

For example:

[youtube]_kOBFYu_DOY&feature=related[/youtube]

Dwayne Wade on Rondo with a dislocated elbow and Wade got nothing.

To me Ernie, it's just not consistent and you can see it more and more every year.

 

[casmith07]

Overblown. After LeBron drops 40+ on Boston tonight, the 24/7 news cycle will not talk about Bynum again until Stern levies a suspension, and then it'll be a blurb on the ticker.

 

[Stautner]

Not at all. In fact, I said that it's a different time, a different game. I simply said that it was not as bad a foul IMO as many seemed to think. I've seen much, much worse and I've seen as bad, fairly recently that didn't get anything. To me, there is very little consistency in the League today. You can say that it was a bad foul and that's OK but I am telling you that I saw very similar stuff this year go on with very little response by the league.

For example:

[youtube]_kOBFYu_DOY&feature=related[/youtube]

Dwayne Wade on Rondo with a dislocated elbow and Wade got nothing.

To me Ernie, it's just not consistent and you can see it more and more every year.

I've seen worse results (various injuries), but not that many that carried the potential for true, serious and even long term or permanent damage that this foul did. It's certainly not near the commonplace ocurrance you seem to be suggesting.

The thing is, this kind of foul has the potential to result in much more serious injury than almost anything that occurs on the court. With a punch a player generally at least has a second to duck or defend, and even a hard fall that screws up a leg or foot is unlikely to result in permanent damage, but when you put a player in a postion to take a fall head first, or to flip and land on a tailbone you are introducing the possibility of brain damage, paralysis, etc. Anyone who has ever played the game would agree that putting a player in that position is not and never has been accepted as part of the game.

There are simply lines you don't cross without it being a dirty, cheap shot that is never acceptible. In football, for example, you don't spear a defenseless player in the back. The same applies to intentionally causing a player on a basketball court to come down on his head - same kind of situation among players. A cheap shot that carries a risk of permanent damage. It's a line that every player will tell you should never be crossed.

 

[BlueStar3398]

Bynum has done this before. Here's the same hit he put on Barea, but he sent this guy to the hospital:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbcjL7AVxMA&feature=share
[youtube]QbcjL7AVxMA&feature=share[/youtube]

 

[BlueStar3398]

Bynum AGAIN with the same type of hit on a player going for a layup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p1tQiSA2Ok&feature=share

[youtube]4p1tQiSA2Ok&feature=share[/youtube]