Twitter: Darren Woodson Snubbed for HOF Again

KJJ

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The argument I responded to was about who was the better player …

That’s the argument I responded to and I’m not going continue to argue it. Charles Woodson was the better player and it’s really not debatable.
 

KJJ

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As for INT's being the #1 stat for DB's, that's a little like saying sacks is the #1 stat for O-Linemen. The reality is sacks is a standard for DE's more than with DT's, and INT's is a standard for CB's more than SS's.

The standard for CBs and safeties is playmaking ability. The Hall of Fame voters look at the stats. They look at INT’s, defensive TDs and return yards. Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu will be first ballot Hall of Famer’s due to their playmaking ability. It all shows up in their career stats which led to a number of Pro Bowls/All Pro seasons. Darren Woodson was a great player but there were a lot of safeties who were better than him. It’s tough making the HOF as a safety.
 

OmerV

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That’s the argument I responded to and I’m not going continue to argue it. Charles Woodson was the better player and it’s really not debatable.
Again, I never said he wasn't. And, in fact, I said he was. That wasn't the point of my comment. The point was if you are going to make say one player is better than another it has to be base on an argument that fits, not one that compares apples to watermelons.

I don't care how many more passing yards Testeverde had than Montana or Jim Kelly, or if Russell Wilson retired today with 13,000 fewer yards than Testeverde, Testeverde was not as good a QB as any of them.
 

OmerV

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The standard for CBs and safeties is playmaking ability. The Hall of Fame voters look at the stats. They look at INT’s, defensive TDs and return yards. Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu will be first ballot Hall of Famer’s due to their playmaking ability. It all shows up in their career stats which led to a number of Pro Bowls/All Pro seasons. Darren Woodson was a great player but there were a lot of safeties who were better than him. It’s tough making the HOF as a safety.
And making plays entails different things, especially with different positions. Strong Safeties have a lot more run responsibility than CB.s - they are part coverage guys and part run stoppers. They are not the same position as a CB wo's first and foremost responsibility is always coverage. For a CB INT's are more of a standard than tackles, but for a strong safety tackles are a big stat analysts look at.
 

KJJ

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Again, I never said he wasn't. And, in fact, I said he was. That wasn't the point of my comment. The point was if you are going to make say one player is better than another it has to be base on an argument that fits, not one that compares apples to watermelons.

I don't care how many more passing yards Testeverde had than Montana or Jim Kelly, or if Russell Wilson retired today with 13,000 fewer yards than Testeverde, Testeverde was not as good a QB as any of them.

Passing yards isn’t the number one stat that puts a QB in the Hall of Fame or Testaverde and Drew Bledsoe would be in. There’s a lot of factors when judging QBs. Troy Aikman was a first ballot Hall of Famer and his passing yards were puny compared to most of his peers.
 

KJJ

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And making plays entails different things, especially with different positions. Strong Safeties have a lot more run responsibility than CB.s - they are part coverage guys and part run stoppers. They are not the same position as a CB wo's first and foremost responsibility is always coverage.

We’ve gone far enough with this. I’ve given my opinion. :thumbup:
 

OmerV

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Passing yards isn’t the number one stat that puts a QB in the Hall of Fame or Vinny Testaverde and Drew Bledsoe would be in. There’s a lot of factors when judging QBs. Troy Aikman was a first ballot Hall of Famer and his passing yards were puny compared to most of his peers.
And INTs are not the #1 stat for a strong safety. You seem to think a CB and a SS have the same job and responsibility. They do not, just as a DT and DE do not.
 

OmerV

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We’ve gone far enough with this. I’ve given my opinion. :thumbup:
You are entitled to your opinion on who was the better player - an opinion that, as I have told you, I also share.

You are not entitled to your own facts.

SS's and CB's are not viewed as identical roles with identical statistical measurements to judge by ...

… and an 18 year player is naturally more likely to have more cumulative career stats regardless of whether he is a better player than the 12 year player or not.
 

KJJ

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And INTs are not the #1 stat for a strong safety. You seem to think a CB and a SS have the same job and responsibility. They do not, just as a DT and DE do not.

It’s the number one stat for getting voted into the Hall of Fame as a DB. INT’s signify playmaking ability.
 

KJJ

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You are entitled to your opinion on who was the better player - an opinion that, as I have told you, I also share.

You are not entitled to your own facts.

SS's and CB's are not viewed as identical roles with identical statistical measurements to judge by ...

… and an 18 year player is naturally more likely to have more cumulative career stats regardless of whether he is a better player than the 12 year player or not.

The fact he played 18 years at two positions at a high level points to how great a player Charles Woodson was. Length of career also factors into HOF votes. I’m not providing my own facts you’re just one of those who enjoys arguing.
 

AbeBeta

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You can't be snubbed unless you are deserving.

He had 3 outstanding seasons - good not great player.
 

jwitten82

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You are entitled to your opinion on who was the better player - an opinion that, as I have told you, I also share.

You are not entitled to your own facts.

SS's and CB's are not viewed as identical roles with identical statistical measurements to judge by ...

… and an 18 year player is naturally more likely to have more cumulative career stats regardless of whether he is a better player than the 12 year player or not.
But it's still not close even if you just count C. Woodson first 12 years. Charles had 45 ints (9 of them returned for tds), 100 pass deflections, and 11.5 sacks.
 

Ranched

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Woodson? Did the old timers forget about Chuck Howley? One of the first great Dallas Cowboys.

Howley is still one of the best linebackers to ever play in the NFL and the fact he was never inducted into the Hall is ludicrous!
 

Mannix

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Maybe it was the games I saw, but I never thought Charles Woodson was that great.
 

Tussinman

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Maybe it was the games I saw, but I never thought Charles Woodson was that great.
Yeah it was 100% the games you watched. Only defensive player to ever win the Heisman, NFL defensive player of the year, first or second team all pro eight times along with first team all decade.

Dude is a legitimate freak
 

Tussinman

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Lets be honest here, Woodson doesnt deserve to be in the HOF. He was a great safety for the Cowboys and certainly one of our best. But he didnt make enough big plays for my money to be considered HOF material. And he played on a great defense.
Agreed. Darren is in the hall of very good.

A modern safety equivalent is Eric weddle. Weddle had a damn good career (6x pro bowl, 2x 1st team, 3x 2nd team, all decade team ) but just like Darren is probably on the outside looking in
 

Mannix

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------Yeah it was 100% the games you watched. Only defensive player to ever win the Heisman, NFL defensive player of the year, first or second team all pro eight times along with first team all decade.

Dude is a legitimate freak

I saw him a lot....and I saw numerous guys use him up. Kind of the way Playmaker owned Primetime
 

OmerV

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It’s the number one stat for getting voted into the Hall of Fame as a DB. INT’s signify playmaking ability.

So, it's your contention that Everson Walls was a better player than Cliff Harris, Troy Polamalu, Steve Atwater and Brian Dawkins.

Hell, even with an apples to apples position comparison you are telling me Everson Walls was a better player than Deion Sanders, Darrell Green, Champ Bailey, Ty Law and Mike Haynes.

So, you want to talk about the HOF ….? Every player I listed above is in the HOF except Walls, and every one of them has fewer INTs than Walls.

Which means the HOF does not share your opinion that a DB with more INTs is automatically a better player than one with fewer INT's.

Face it, it is not the infallible standard you make it out to be, either for judging who is better, or who the HOF will take.

The fallacy you are hanging your hat on is that cumulative stats are as much a function of longevity as they are of quality play. It's a combination of the two things, not just the quality as you suggest.
 

OmerV

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But it's still not close even if you just count C. Woodson first 12 years. Charles had 45 ints (9 of them returned for tds), 100 pass deflections, and 11.5 sacks.
Again, I'm not arguing that Darren is better than Charles, and in fact I don't believe that.

Charles certainly was better man to man coverage, and going after the ball.

But, at least part of the reason the gap is so big is because Charles played longer.

And clearly part of it is the position he played. It's ludicrous to suggest that safeties, especially strong safeties, have the same opportunity and expectation for INTs as a CB.

Then, tack on the fact Charles was just a better player. Again, I wasn't saying otherwise, was just pointing out the longevity and position play a role in how cumulative career stats are viewed.
 
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