Dez meets Michael Jordan

[Nav22]

Pippen clarified Friday afternoon, tweeting that he does not believe James has eclipsed Jordan.
"Don't get me wrong, MJ was and is the greatest. But LeBron could by all means get to his level someday," said Pippen

Oh, get real. He obviously retracted his original opinion because he was getting skewered in the media. Bulls fans were angered and Scottie didn't want to sully his good name with that market.

Either way, Jim Boeheim and Pat Riley saw the exact same things. Riley's nickname for LeBron is BOAT... an acronym for Best Of All-Time.

 

[Nav22]

I just don't see how that would be remotely possible. Lebron is a far superior physical specimen and athlete with the same level of skill as MJ. MJ went about 210 while Lebron has 20 or more pounds on him and its all muscle. He could push MJ into the bleachers just by backing down. He also has 3 inches plus more in wingspan on him. Constant debates like this are akin to the debates about who was better Jim Brown or Barry Sanders. If Jim Brown ran against the same caliber defenses and athletes that Barry did JB would've had a tough time cracking 1,000 yards. All the love and memories of JB in the world won't change the fact that that athletes he and his fellow pros were at the time were EXPONENTIALLY inferior to what Barry was and played against and to compare JB against someone like Adrian Peterson seems almost silly. Sure JB was to his generation what BS and AP were/are, but sorry JB would've been average in the BS or AP league. Similar to what MJ would be now in the league. When MJ came up it was freakish to have his combo of size and athleticism which helped him dominate the game...at that time. (I would also argue the entire league was down a bit because Magic and Bird and their teams were in their twilights) Now its almost par for the course and nearly every team has someone who's a freakish athlete that plays the 2 guard or 3 swing that goes btwn 6'6-6'9. Heck Dirk is 7 foot and plays the 3 most of the time. Okay, sure MJ could probably still score today, but you can't tell me he could begin to d up kevin Durant, Kobe, or Lebron, all of which have significant size advantages and every bit as much athleticism, if not more.
Furthermore, no NBA star has ever got the star treatment as much as MJ did, he nearly created and expanded it. He got away with murder and got to shoot 20 freethrows per night. Anyway, this entire debate almost seems silly to me, MJ was the greatest of his generation leave it at that. Players have gotten bigger and better since then, same thing that has happened in every sport.
Next up, let's compare Royce Gracie vs Matt Hughes, two diff generations of MMA fighters....oh wait they did go head to head and that was a severe beat-down.

Outstanding post. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug.

Today's NBA prospects compete against the best players in the entire world to make it into the league, as opposed to primarily competing against only the best American collegiate players. Globalization has made a huge difference and has made it that much more difficult just to make it into the league.

When you add that to the fact that zone D is now legal (it was illegal for Jordan's entire Bulls career) and the obvious athletic advantages today's players hold over players from the '80s-'90s, it's downright silly to even try to argue that Jordan faced stiffer competition than LeBron is facing.

There are also more NBA teams in existence than there were during Mike's era. More teams equals more competition.

Put LeBron in a time machine back to 1989 and he'd beat the brakes off of Mike. Oh, and he has about 50 lbs on Mike, not 20.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Outstanding post. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug.

Today's NBA prospects compete against the best players in the entire world to make it into the league, as opposed to primarily competing against only the best American collegiate players. Globalization has made a huge difference and has made it that much more difficult just to make it into the league.

When you add that to the fact that zone D is now legal (it was illegal for Jordan's entire Bulls career) and the obvious athletic advantages today's players hold over players from the '80s-'90s, it's downright silly to even try to argue that Jordan faced stiffer competition than LeBron is facing.

There are also more NBA teams in existence than there were during Mike's era. More teams equals more competition.

Put LeBron in a time machine back to 1989 and he'd beat the brakes off of Mike. Oh, and he has about 50 lbs on Mike, not 20.

If you ever watched a game from the 80s to 90s you would stop using the zone defense excuse. Teams got away with so much more than they do today. Even towards the end of that era, the match-ups between the Knicks and Heat are more physical than any other match-up today.

I'm not saying teams today couldn't compete at all under those rules, but most offensive players will take today's rules over those of the late 80s/early 90s

 

[Nav22]

If you ever watched a game from the 80s to 90s you would stop using the zone defense excuse. Teams got away with so much more than they do today. Even towards the end of that era, the match-ups between the Knicks and Heat are more physical than any other match-up today.

I'm not saying teams today couldn't compete at all under those rules, but most offensive players will take today's rules over those of the late 80s/early 90s

The only things teams "got away with" was the occasional hard foul that wasn't called a flagrant. Nowadays, flagrant fouls are handed out like candy but that doesn't mean teams don't get physical/dirty, especially come playoff time.

Nostalgia's one hell of a drug.

I remember the Knicks-Heat matchups and they're no more physical than matchups are nowadays. Don't believe me? Rewatch any Heat-Celtics playoff game from the last couple years. Hell, rewatch Heat-Pacers from last season. LeBron got whacked regularly in the lane and kept going back for more.

So I'm sure he could handle the physicality of the '80s-'90s, especially considering the fact that he'd be an athletic monster playing in an era where absolutely nobody could come close to matching up with him.

The whole notion that LeBron's some babied athlete that couldn't handle the way the game was played is flat-out ridiculous and is just another example of nostalgic fans pretending everything from THEIR era was soooo much better than it is nowadays.

Miami's Finals loss to Dallas was a direct result of the Mavs' successful zone defense flustering a Miami team that didn't yet have the chemistry needed to bust that zone. Zone D changes the entire way the game is played and the ability to go zone makes things twice as complicated for an offense to execute. Star offensive players nowadays would easily trade zone D for occasionally being whacked a bit harder in the lane.

Imagine a league where teams HAD to play LeBron man-to-man AND HE KNEW IT.

 

[jimmy40]

Wonder how good Jordan would be in today's dribbling is optional, no such thing as a pivot foot, shuffle your feet before you make your move NBA. Basketball is so much easier now it's an absolute joke.

 

[DFWJC]

Oh, get real. He obviously retracted his original opinion because he was getting skewered in the media. Bulls fans were angered and Scottie didn't want to sully his good name with that market.

Either way, Jim Boeheim and Pat Riley saw the exact same things. Riley's nickname for LeBron is BOAT... an acronym for Best Of All-Time.

I thought this was thread about Jordan and Dez. WTH is all this LeBron groveling and knee pad adjusting for?

It's good to see that a couple fo Hall of Fame level coaches like James. He is awesome, no doubt.

So that makes 4-5 for LeBron and 4-5 million for Jordan. Sounds about right.

 

[Nav22]

Wonder how good Jordan would be in today's dribbling is optional, no such thing as a pivot foot, shuffle your feet before you make your move NBA. Basketball is so much easier now it's an absolute joke.

Yeah, if only MJ played in an era with bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic opponents who could play both man and zone D! He'd have had a waaaay easier time!

The term "superstar call" originated thanks to Mike being rewarded with FTs if a defender breathed on him. David Stern knew who the NBA's cash cow was and so did the refs.

The selective memory sheep have for this man's career is nothing short of astounding.

 

[jimmy40]

Yeah, if only MJ played in an era with bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic opponents who could play both man and zone D! He'd have had a waaaay easier time!

The term "superstar call" originated thanks to Mike being rewarded with FTs if a defender breathed on him. David Stern knew who the NBA's cash cow was and so did the refs.

The selective memory sheep have for this man's career is nothing short of astounding.

find a more athletic game than U of H vs Louisville in '83. 30 years ago. The'80s lakers would run any current NBA team off the court, again almost 30 years ago.

 

[Nav22]

find a more athletic game than U of H vs Louisville in '83. 30 years ago. The'80s lakers would run any current NBA team off the court, again almost 30 years ago.

Oh, this is gold.

The amount of spin needed to convince oneself that the good old days were better than the present has reached dizzying new heights.

Now basketball players in 2013 aren't as athletic as they were 30 years ago!!!!!

Good thing Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook weren't coming up in the '80s. Those Louisville kids would've run them out of the gym!

The Lakers? In case you couldn't tell, LeBron can do anything Magic Johnson could do, just at a faster pace and with twice the vertical leap.

You're tragically out of touch.

 

[DFWJC]

Oh, this is gold.

The amount of spin needed to convince oneself that the good old days were better than the present has reached dizzying new heights.

Now basketball players in 2013 aren't as athletic as they were 30 years ago!!!!!

Good thing Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook weren't coming up in the '80s. Those Louisville kids would've run them out of the gym!

The Lakers? In case you couldn't tell, LeBron can do anything Magic Johnson could do, just at a faster pace and with twice the vertical leap.

You're tragically out of touch.

Durant is very similar to George Gervin or Bob McAdoo.

Anyway, thsi comparing player fro 20-30 years ago is silly.
If those same players grew up in this era, they too would be even bigger, even strong and even faster than they were back then.

You compare players in the same eras...the rest is hypothetical

 

[Nav22]

Durant is very similar to George Gervin or Bob McAdoo.

Anyway, thsi comparing player fro 20-30 years ago is silly.
If those same players grew up in this era, they too would be even bigger, even strong and even faster than they were back then.

You compare players in the same eras...the rest is hypothetical

Fair enough.

But nothing is sillier than pretending players 30 years ago were actually more athletic than they are nowadays. :laugh2:

 

[DFWJC]

Fair enough.

But nothing is sillier than pretending players 30 years ago were actually more athletic than they are nowadays. :laugh2:

Probably the best someone could say is that certain players were more (or less) athletic relatively speaking.

 

[zrinkill]

I guess Nav22 thinks Emmitt would be less of a player if he played nowadays compared to the 90's.

 

[DFWJC]

I guess Nav22 thinks Emmitt would be less of a player if he played nowadays compared to the 90's.

Or Jim Brown

 

[Nav22]

I guess you guys still use 8-track players. Yay, older and slower!

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

I guess you guys still use 8-track players. Yay, older and slower!

Better than younger and dumber.

 

[Nav22]

Better than younger and dumber.

Yeah, that made sense.

 

[Miller]

I just don't see how that would be remotely possible. Lebron is a far superior physical specimen and athlete with the same level of skill as MJ. MJ went about 210 while Lebron has 20 or more pounds on him and its all muscle. He could push MJ into the bleachers just by backing down. He also has 3 inches plus more in wingspan on him. Constant debates like this are akin to the debates about who was better Jim Brown or Barry Sanders. If Jim Brown ran against the same caliber defenses and athletes that Barry did JB would've had a tough time cracking 1,000 yards. All the love and memories of JB in the world won't change the fact that that athletes he and his fellow pros were at the time were EXPONENTIALLY inferior to what Barry was and played against and to compare JB against someone like Adrian Peterson seems almost silly. Sure JB was to his generation what BS and AP were/are, but sorry JB would've been average in the BS or AP league. Similar to what MJ would be now in the league. When MJ came up it was freakish to have his combo of size and athleticism which helped him dominate the game...at that time. (I would also argue the entire league was down a bit because Magic and Bird and their teams were in their twilights) Now its almost par for the course and nearly every team has someone who's a freakish athlete that plays the 2 guard or 3 swing that goes btwn 6'6-6'9. Heck Dirk is 7 foot and plays the 3 most of the time. Okay, sure MJ could probably still score today, but you can't tell me he could begin to d up kevin Durant, Kobe, or Lebron, all of which have significant size advantages and every bit as much athleticism, if not more.
Furthermore, no NBA star has ever got the star treatment as much as MJ did, he nearly created and expanded it. He got away with murder and got to shoot 20 freethrows per night. Anyway, this entire debate almost seems silly to me, MJ was the greatest of his generation leave it at that. Players have gotten bigger and better since then, same thing that has happened in every sport.
Next up, let's compare Royce Gracie vs Matt Hughes, two diff generations of MMA fighters....oh wait they did go head to head and that was a severe beat-down.

This makes no sense since the league was not only stronger back when Jordan played but was less watered down and had rules that ensured that defenses could hand check and basically play bully ball all day. It's amazing that we can even have this argument for a guy who quit on his team a couple of years back and then had to run away just to win ONE. Guy has mad skills but you are living in a world that isn't real when you start this b.s. This is who Jordan played in his era...Hakeem, Mailman, Isiah, Dumars, Magic, Bird, Robinson,etc, etc. You do know the 80s and 90s were considered the peak of the NBA and considered to have the most talent overall? Same with defenses back then. All teams had enforcers and you got killed. The league now has up to half the teams with no talent and who are lottery bound and guys like Pau Gasol are considered tough. Really?

 

[ghst187]

This makes no sense since the league was not only stronger back when Jordan played but was less watered down and had rules that ensured that defenses could hand check and basically play bully ball all day. It's amazing that we can even have this argument for a guy who quit on his team a couple of years back and then had to run away just to win ONE. Guy has mad skills but you are living in a world that isn't real when you start this b.s. This is who Jordan played in his era...Hakeem, Mailman, Isiah, Dumars, Magic, Bird, Robinson,etc, etc. You do know the 80s and 90s were considered the peak of the NBA and considered to have the most talent overall? Same with defenses back then. All teams had enforcers and you got killed. The league now has up to half the teams with no talent and who are lottery bound and guys like Pau Gasol are considered tough. Really?

Jordan couldn't win till most of the stars from that era were retired or at the end of their career, save mailman. Of course by the time the Bulls were meeting the Jazz in the finals Stern was ensuring the Bulls wouldn't lose because the league was making too much money off of Jordan. I don't think the Supersonics got a single call in the finals the year the Bulls won 70 games. Anyway, there's a long list of current players that Jordan couldn't guard, esp if all of them get away with all the travels, carries, and etc equal to what MJ did. In MJ's day, there weren't hardly any players with the length, skill, and athleticism to d him up, given a fair fight. Now there is about one per team. Not saying he'd get shut down, but he's not dominating games the way he did and not the way KD, Kobe, or Lebron can now. I hate the Heat and the Lakers with a passion but I just can't foresee any possible way the Bulls of that era could win more than a game in a seven game series from either. Size, skill, and athleticism are significantly better across the board. Do you really think Kareem could score 40 against Shaq or Tim Duncan. I sure don't. I think he'd get shoved into the bleachers. Can't imagine Bird going for even 20 against Kobe. The Chief vs Dwight Howard....Magic vs Kevin Durant....Magic shot threes like a gradeschooler.....cmon...its not much of a contest.

 

[Miller]

Jordan couldn't win till most of the stars from that era were retired or at the end of their career, save mailman. Of course by the time the Bulls were meeting the Jazz in the finals Stern was ensuring the Bulls wouldn't lose because the league was making too much money off of Jordan. I don't think the Supersonics got a single call in the finals the year the Bulls won 70 games. Anyway, there's a long list of current players that Jordan couldn't guard, esp if all of them get away with all the travels, carries, and etc equal to what MJ did. In MJ's day, there weren't hardly any players with the length, skill, and athleticism to d him up, given a fair fight. Now there is about one per team. Not saying he'd get shut down, but he's not dominating games the way he did and not the way KD, Kobe, or Lebron can now. I hate the Heat and the Lakers with a passion but I just can't foresee any possible way the Bulls of that era could win more than a game in a seven game series from either. Size, skill, and athleticism are significantly better across the board. Do you really think Kareem could score 40 against Shaq or Tim Duncan. I sure don't. I think he'd get shoved into the bleachers. Can't imagine Bird going for even 20 against Kobe. The Chief vs Dwight Howard....Magic vs Kevin Durant....Magic shot threes like a gradeschooler.....cmon...its not much of a contest.

If you actually think the things you just wrote in the last part of this then we have nothing more to discuss. Bird, Magic and all the people you are talking about all played in a league where every team was stacked full of HOFers. Guys who were tough mentally and physically. The league is soft now. You don't know a thing about basketball and the skills and smarts to play if that us your argument. It's useless even going any further