Dez meets Michael Jordan

[NIBGoldenchild]

Yeah, that made sense.

The fact that you didn't understand what I wrote only proves the point further.

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

Jordan couldn't win till most of the stars from that era were retired or at the end of their career, save mailman. Of course by the time the Bulls were meeting the Jazz in the finals Stern was ensuring the Bulls wouldn't lose because the league was making too much money off of Jordan. I don't think the Supersonics got a single call in the finals the year the Bulls won 70 games. Anyway, there's a long list of current players that Jordan couldn't guard, esp if all of them get away with all the travels, carries, and etc equal to what MJ did. In MJ's day, there weren't hardly any players with the length, skill, and athleticism to d him up, given a fair fight. Now there is about one per team. Not saying he'd get shut down, but he's not dominating games the way he did and not the way KD, Kobe, or Lebron can now. I hate the Heat and the Lakers with a passion but I just can't foresee any possible way the Bulls of that era could win more than a game in a seven game series from either. Size, skill, and athleticism are significantly better across the board. Do you really think Kareem could score 40 against Shaq or Tim Duncan. I sure don't. I think he'd get shoved into the bleachers. Can't imagine Bird going for even 20 against Kobe. The Chief vs Dwight Howard....Magic vs Kevin Durant....Magic shot threes like a gradeschooler.....cmon...its not much of a contest.

Then why was Jordan still dominating nearly 40 years old on two bad knees? He was still averaging 20ppg against competition that was younger, and as you say, with "size, skill, and athleticism" significantly better. What they lacked was basketball IQ and work ethic. For you guys who know nothing of basketball, and think physical gifts are all you need to be good, and obviously never saw these players you're dismissing play, why is Javale McGee so bad? How would he do against the best players of the 80's and 90's? He's likely the most athletic seven footer playing today, but he probably has the lowest basketball IQ in NBA history.

Would Kareem need to score 40 on Shaq or Duncan to dominate them? Why wouldn't you ask whether he could do what Hakeem did to Shaq? Oh, too much common sense...I understand.

But back to the actual debate, and not the completely unrelated straw men argument used to prop up your broken logic, Jordan would've dominated every single superstar in this era. Lebron is able to dominate driving to the hole the way he does because refs are quick to blow the whistle in this era, they also ignore his constant traveling and fouling in game on the line situations. MJ dominated in an era where his defender was able to use his hands and knees to keep him from going around him, yet they still couldn't stop him. They would call charging on Lebron more often in the old era for trying to run guys over. How would Jordan deal with zones? He would've still dominated with his back to the basket, turn around jumpers that were unstoppable and stolen by Kobe and every other scorer of this era( yet less effective), and he still would've gained penetration. How do I know this? Because once again, I point to his two year stint with the wizards where zones had been made legal in 2001.

Is ESPN classic still around? Why don't you sub-30 year old know nothing's watch some classic games and learn something. Talent + fundamentals + basketball IQ trump just talent every day of the week.

 

[Nav22]

This makes no sense since the league was not only stronger back when Jordan played but was less watered down and had rules that ensured that defenses could hand check and basically play bully ball all day.

Athleticism grows exponentially with each era. Players now are exponentially bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic than they were 20-30 years ago.

And that goes for all sports, not just basketball.

That is a FACT and only an old, out-of-touch, nostalgic fan would even dare disagree.

"Bully ball all day"... you have no idea what you're talking about. The occasional hard foul still occurs nowadays, especially in the playoffs. Flagrant fouls and ejections occur more frequently nowadays, but that doesn't mean the physical aspect of the game is dead.

You either don't watch the games anymore or you have no idea what it is you're watching.

It's amazing that we can even have this argument for a guy who quit on his team a couple of years back and then had to run away just to win ONE.

Absurd argument but I'm not surprised. I hear crap like this all the time.

Every great player needs help to win a title, and the Cavs weren't giving LeBron the help he needed. He spent 7 years there trying to win with an awful supporting cast, and was good enough to turn them into a contender anyways.

So his choices were to either stick it out with a losing franchise and eventually retire without a ring, or go to a team built to win it all.

MJ would've retired ring-less if he stayed in Chicago but Pippen (or another dominant #2 option) never arrived. So would you have preferred this from the "greatest player ever" or would you think he'd choose to leave Chicago eventually?

But wait! Geniuses like you would never refer to a ring-less player as the "greatest ever", right? And Michael wouldn't have won without a supporting cast... so if we're being consistent, Michael's greatness was essentially dependent on his supporting cast, in the eyes of analytical individuals like yourself. :laugh2:

This is who Jordan played in his era...Hakeem, Mailman, Isiah, Dumars, Magic, Bird, Robinson,etc, etc.

Yeah, because there's no great players in the NBA nowadays.

Kevin Durant, Kobe Bryant, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Tony Parker, Kyrie Irving.

Dell Curry's kid is the point guard for the Warriors. But he'll never be as good as Dell was... right, old-timer?

You do know the 80s and 90s were considered the peak of the NBA and considered to have the most talent overall? Same with defenses back then.

Only by old, out-of-touch, nostalgic fans like yourself.

Is ESPN classic still around? Why don't you sub-30 year old know nothing's watch some classic games and learn something. Talent + fundamentals + basketball IQ trump just talent every day of the week.

Are you seriously trying to imply that LeBron somehow lacks fundamentals and basketball IQ!?!?

You're the know-nothing. An old, out-of-touch, know-nothing. Bad combination.

LeBron's been called the smartest player in the entire league, basketball IQ-wise. His fundamentals are second-to-none, as he can drive and finish with either hand just as well.

As for your ridiculous take on him "only running over defenders", you have no clue what you're talking about. LeBron's developed one of the best jumpers in the NBA in addition to his skills in attacking the basket.

As crazy as it sounds, James has developed a jump shot that has been as deadly as those of Steve Novak, Stephen Curry and Kyle Korver.

According to Synergy Sports tracking, James has shot 92 jumpers of the catch-and-shoot variety this season, which is the closest thing we have to an in-game 3-point shooting contest. He's made 48.9 percent of those attempts. When we account for the extra value of a 3-point shot, we find that he's posted an effective field goal percentage of 68.5 percent on those shots.

How good is that? Only Spurs sharpshooter Danny Green has been more efficient on catch-and-shoots. Everyone else trails Green and James in that department.

There's more. When we look at shots that have been defined as unguarded catch-and-shoots, James is shooting an insane 34-of-59, which is effectively 82.2 percent when we account for the 3-point shot. The average NBA player shoots about 65 percent at the rim. So in other words, giving James an open jumper this season has been more devastating than letting an NBA player take a layup.

It's true, catch-and-shoots represent just a small portion of the overall jumper repertoire. But even when we look beyond those types of set shots, James has been nothing short of amazing.

According to Synergy, 28 players have taken at least 400 jump shots this season. So in this sample, we're looking at the most prolific jump shooters on planet Earth -- Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Joe Johnson, Kobe Bryant and James Harden, etc.

Guess who ranks No. 1 in field goal percentage?

That's right, it's James.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/PerDiem-130225/nba-lebron-james-shooting-star

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

Laugh similes don't mean you're right, everyone knows it means you're not really laughing and you don't have much else to say.

 

[Miller]

Laugh similes don't mean you're right, everyone knows it means you're not really laughing and you don't have much else to say.

It's like arguing with people who have never played or watched basketball over the years. They are acting like athletes make better players despite the fact that guys like Drexler and others were just as good of athletes with more skill and IQ. I've never heard dumber arguments in my life. Do any search you want of any basketball historian and there most talk about this years as the green era of basketball. Yet I was just forced to read someone with zero badketball knowledge ramble with LoLs and smilies. The babblers still ignore James ability to quit and gave only one ring. Heck Dirk schooled him. How athletic us he compared to others? He thinks one hard foul a game equals what the old Knicks and Pistons used to do. It's not even CLOSE! Jordan took over games. Wade still closes for the Heat. He needs to look it up. On LeBrons streak Wade still was closing the game and his stats were also off the chart, much easier in an All Star team

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

Nav22,

I think you know his already, because I can't imagine you being so simple-minded that you can't read properly, but I did not say Lebron had poor fundamentals. Although he does bully poor defenders, and what would've been an offensive foul on him in 1998, is now a foul on the defender. Regardless, I called the players of this current era plagued with low basketball IQ and poor fundamentals. It is sad that so few teams have more than one player that can knock down a wide open jumper consistently, can properly run a pick-n-roll, or the fact that there are only maybe five point guards that can actually run their teams offense. These are things that a player would never get off the bench without knowing how to do. Yet coaches are forced to start players like Andray Blatche because the talent pool is incredibly thin.

I've killed every argument you've made for Lebron already, no need to even go over it again. Your bias against basketball you've never watched is evident by your blatant Lebron ball-swinging in a thread that had nothing to do with him and was about Dez Bryant and Michael Jordan.

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

It's like arguing with people who have never played or watched basketball over the years. They are acting like athletes make better players despite the fact that guys like Drexler and others were just as good of athletes with more skill and IQ. I've never heard dumber arguments in my life. Do any search you want of any basketball historian and there most talk about this years as the green era of basketball. Yet I was just forced to read someone with zero badketball knowledge ramble with LoLs and smilies. The babblers still ignore James ability to quit and gave only one ring. Heck Dirk schooled him. How athletic us he compared to others? He thinks one hard foul a game equals what the old Knicks and Pistons used to do. It's not even CLOSE! Jordan took over games. Wade still closes for the Heat. He needs to look it up. On LeBrons streak Wade still was closing the game and his stats were also off the chart, much easier in an All Star team

It's like talking to a brick wall....that laughs awkwardly and proclaims things ludicrous when it doesn't understand.

 

[Miller]

It's like talking to a brick wall....that laughs awkwardly and proclaims things ludicrous when it doesn't understand.

Right. No understanding on how the game is played. Like Bird wouldn't be able to play. And sorry about the grammar and writing above. Hard to write on the phone with kids hanging on me.

 

[Nav22]

Nice circle-jerk, old-timer know-nothings.

 

[Miller]

Nice circle-jerk, old-timer know-nothings.

I wouldn't call 43 old timer. It's smart enough to actually know a sport without looking clueless. It's the reason Hakeem schooled Shaq when he was allegedly better and stronger but you wouldn't understand skill. Another nice laughing emoticon though. That's half your lame argument. Please stop embarrassing yourself. I'm sure you have a debate to join now on how Chris Johnson is better than Bo Jackson just because he is younger and ran a fast combine 40. Move along.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I didn't even like Jordan. At all. But to say Lebron is a better athlete is wrong, unless you're just counting his weight heavily in his favor. And he's definitely not more skilled.

And again, I'm the opposite of some Jordan fanboy with some kind of childhood nostalgia about him.

Really, they're so different physically and their games are so different, it's hard to compare them.

 

[Nav22]

I wouldn't call 43 old timer. It's smart enough to actually know a sport without looking clueless. It's the reason Hakeem schooled Shaq when he was allegedly better and stronger but you wouldn't understand skill. Another nice laughing emoticon though. That's half your lame argument. Please stop embarrassing yourself. I'm sure you have a debate to join now on how Chris Johnson is better than Bo Jackson just because he is younger and ran a fast combine 40. Move along.

You can no longer debate their talent because LeBron is more talented.

You can no longer debate their production because LeBron is more productive.

So now you've reached the part of the discussion where you A) reveal the sad little complex you have against anything that came after your generation, and B) start pulling analogies out of your butt that are completely irrelevant because you simply have nowhere else to go.

Hakeem vs Shaq!!!

"Michael's better than LeBron because of the 1995 Finals!"

I love midlife crises. You're done, O-T.

Old, obsolete, and out-of-touch is no way to go through life. But hey, at least Who's The Boss? is on DVD now!

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I'd love to meet Michael Jordan. one of my all time favorite sports figures.

 

[Miller]

You can no longer debate their talent because LeBron is more talented.

You can no longer debate their production because LeBron is more productive.

So now you've reached the part of the discussion where you A) reveal the sad little complex you have against anything that came after your generation, and B) start pulling analogies out of your butt that are completely irrelevant because you simply have nowhere else to go.

Hakeem vs Shaq!!!

"Michael's better than LeBron because of the 1995 Finals!"

I love midlife crises. You're done, O-T.

Old, obsolete, and out-of-touch is no way to go through life. But hey, at least Who's The Boss? is on DVD now!

Are you like 10 years old. Seriously? You just said multiple things that are patently untrue.

http://www.basesandbaskets.com/2012/11/lebron-vs-jordan-usurping-crown-for.html



Per game statistics
LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Points
27.6
30.1
Rebounds
7.2
6.2
Assists
6.9
5.3
Steals
1.7
2.3
FG percentage
.484
.497
3PT percentage
.332
.327
Minutes
39.9
38.3
PER
27.3
27.9
eFG percentage
.516
.509

Jordan has him in many categories..including scoring...and this is for his career..something we have no idea about for LeBron total. That has yet to play out. Jordan also had less turnovers which made his team better. Then you add



LeBron James
Michael Jordan
1x NBA champion
6x NBA champion
1x NBA Finals MVP
6x NBA Finals MVP
3x MVP
5x MVP
8x All-Star
14x All-Star
NBA Rookie of the Year
NBA Rookie of the Year
1x scoring champion
10x scoring champion
6x All-NBA First Team
10x All-NBA First Team
4x All-Defensive First Team
9x All-Defensive First Team


If you would stop being immature and read....no one is taking away LeBron's POTENTIAL but he isn't Jordan. Jordan had tougher competition...go research it...a greater era of basketball...go research it.

This is what one of the greatest coaches in NBA history...Phil Jackson said

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/09/phil-jackson-talks-lebron-james-vs-michael-jordan/

“He’s got all the physical attributes. I think we all question the prepping that went into LeBron. His defense was shaky when he was a younger player and finding his way through that direction. He is a player that can play four positions. Except for perhaps the center spot, which he hasn’t given a shot at yet, he can play those other four positions quite well. This is unique; Michael could play three and was very good at all three of those, but as a power player that LeBron can become, I think he has an opportunity to explore and advance some of the status that he has already gained. Winning six championships is an elusive thing out there and they haven’t won two yet. But he’s kinda got the smell of it and even the Olympic experience this summer, he was the granted leader of that team and was the critical player when they needed something to happen in the final games. I think he’s there, I think he’s at that position. He’s got good things ahead of him and a lot of it depends upon if he’s gonna be healthy for the remainder of his career.”

So if LeBron goes more years, wins more titles and ups his averages, he can be in the argument but right now he isn't even above Kobe. BTW, Wade is still the finisher and not LeBron..something Jordan never did...take a backseat to finishing games. Also, Wade is having a career year to help LBJ.

So please just grow up. You are wrong and your laughing emoticons do nothing to help you. You've spent pages backing long rants up with nothing. I'll let Wade. LeBron's teammate sum it up

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/16/nba-michael-and-lebron-go_n_2702693.html

Washington Post columnist John Feinstein slammed James, saying, "you don't put Horry or Buechler into the conversation, or Steve Kerr - who won five on two different teams."

"The question is, 'As the best player on a team how many championships did you lead your team to?,'" he told Reuters. "Russell is the best winner of all-time and Jordan and Kobe are way ahead of LeBron - for now."

Bryant stepped gingerly around the fray, saying Jordan's "message is winning is above everything else."

"That's what drives him," he said. "Same thing that drives him now, win as many as you can. It's really that simple."

Feinstein said James should have taken the humble route and said of Jordan, "He's right, I have won only one title. When he was 28 he had also won one. I hope I'm fortunate enough to win a few more before I'm done."

While comparisons between the game's greats will endure, the All-Stars in Houston insist no one has reached Jordan's genius.

"Every kid that wanted to play basketball, that could play, that couldn't play, you tried to emulate Michael Jordan," said Miami Heat nine-time All-Star guard Dwyane Wade.

"That's why there will never be another one of him. He was kind of the first of his kind. Everything he did was groundbreaking in a sense.

"He did it with so much flare and so much pizzazz that even today people are still trying to be like Mike." (Editing by Frank Pingue)

The point of all of this is that LeBron has a chance to do great things but he isn't better than Jordan. He might be one day but right now we don't know his legacy. Right now he has ALOT to do. He has sustain his averages and even up them in some cases for his career and then he has to win more titles. It has nothing to do with generations, it has to do with being realistic. Grow up, it's not intelligent to post like you do. Try reading comprehension too. No one said Jordan is better because of 1995. It just defeats your whole argument that younger, stronger, athletic makes them better. It doesn't in any shape or form and that those guys in the 80s and 90s were just as athletic and strong playing against better competition.

 

[ghst187]

The point of all of this is that LeBron has a chance to do great things but he isn't better than Jordan. He might be one day but right now we don't know his legacy. Right now he has ALOT to do. He has sustain his averages and even up them in some cases for his career and then he has to win more titles. It has nothing to do with generations, it has to do with being realistic. Grow up, it's not intelligent to post like you do. Try reading comprehension too. No one said Jordan is better because of 1995. It just defeats your whole argument that younger, stronger, athletic don't make them better in any shape or form and that those guys in the 80s and 90s were just as athletic and strong playing against better competition.

i wasn't comparing what Lebron has done and been to what Jordan was and accomplished...obviously Lebron hasn't accomplished what MJ did yet....I'm just saying one on one in their primes....Lebron wins 8 of 10.

 

[Miller]

i wasn't comparing what Lebron has done and been to what Jordan was and accomplished...obviously Lebron hasn't accomplished what MJ did yet....I'm just saying one on one in their primes....Lebron wins 8 of 10.

Disagree completely. Two different competitors with different games. I think Jordan wins 6 or 7. You really need to have seen him play year in and year out against tough competition to get what he could do. Reread Wades quote. Jordan's competitive nature wouldn't let him lose 8. His moves and quickness would be an advantage and LeBron would have size. It's just like the she rebounding thing. The argument lamely presented here is that LeBron has 1 more a game than Jordan. But that says nothing basketball wise about how a guard was getting that many rebounds...one season over 8 a game. That means positioning, IQ, etc. leBron should have more with his size.

 

[Miller]

BTW, another Wade quote

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=truehoopmiamiheat&id=15170

"I don't know if (James) has the ability to surpass (Jordan) or not," Wade told ESPNChicago.com during a promotional event for his Wade's World Foundation. "That's yet to be seen. My version as LeBron being on par with Michael is this: They're both on the golf course. Michael's on the 18th hole. LeBron is somewhere on like the fourth hole. He's got a long way to go, but he's on par to get to the 18th hole.

"I think everyone knows that (James) is a phenomenal, phenomenal player. He's one that we haven't seen, with the makeup of a 6-8 guy who runs as fast as any point guard, jumps as high as any center, and has the ability that he has to do so many things. But Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time, that's who everyone shoots for. So it's going to be hard to surpass that."

 

[Nav22]

Nobody said LeBron's had the better career than MJ. He just turned 28!

Save your quotes. Michael Jordan's had one of the most storied, media-fawned career in sports history so of course he'll be praised. The real news is when someone picks a 28 year old in his prime over Michael Jordan. Like Pat Riley, Jim Boeheim, and Scottie Pippen did.

LeBron of 2013 is better than MJ of any year. Your ridiculous list consists of mostly shooting stats. Guess what? LeBron's a tremendous shooter now. He's improved his FG% each year since 2006 and it's up to 56.7% now.

56.7%. As in "way better than MJ ever shot".

And here comes the hammer: on top of all that scoring nonsense... he's always been better as a passer, rebounder, and a more versatile defender thanks to his size/strength.

I'm not even going to bring up rebounding. LeBron owns that advantage as well.

So only if you completely disregard the importance of EVERYTHING ELSE SOMEBODY DOES ON A BASKETBALL COURT BESIDES SCORING THE BALL can you even begin to pretend that MJ is a better overall player.

And even if you only choose to talk about scoring, LeBron's currently shooting a higher % than MJ ever did!!! :laugh2:

He's a physical freak who puts Jordan to shame from that standpoint.
6'8", 260 vs 6'6", 215, so of course he'd beat MJ one-on-one.
Could MJ guard Karl Malone in the post? Of course not. So how the hell would he guard someone as big and strong as Malone who can kill you in the post AND IN EVERY OTHER WAY OFFENSIVELY?

It's common sense. You choose to ignore common sense because you have a heavy bias towards MJ (and probably against LeBron).

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

Hakeem vs Shaq!!!
!

This here exposes how little you know about basketball. Hakeem destroyed Shaq in a finals series. While Hakeem was on his last legs, and Shaq was in his prime. Looking at height and weight measurements without knowing anything about how the game is played or what skills actually are, is simply ignorant, to be blunt.

Do some research about the topic next time you debate someone so it looks like you remotely have a clue of what you're talking about.

 

[mldardy]

This here exposes how little you know about basketball. Hakeem destroyed Shaq in a finals series. While Hakeem was on his last legs, and Shaq was in his prime. Looking at height and weight measurements without knowing anything about how the game is played or what skills actually are, is simply ignorant, to be blunt.

Do some research about the topic next time you debate someone so it looks like you remotely have a clue of what you're talking about.

Shaq wasn't in his prime. It was his 3rd year in the league and Hakeem was 31 at the time, finished in the top 5 that season and just won MVP the previous year. He was not on his last legs