Dissing DWare

[PBJTime]

C'mon, even in that video you can see the difference.

P



LT and Walter Peyton, the greatest Tecmo bowl players of all time.



Ok so now the criteria is 6 seasons?


LT had 70.5 sacks after 6 seasons.

Even IF Ware reaches that - or even gets close to it - he still hasn't shown the dominance that LT did back in the day.


Settle down people, it's not like I'm saying Ware sucks. He's the best 3-4 OLB in the NFL today, bar none. You don't have to get your panties in a bunch just cuz he isn't as good as the greatest of all time.

I just don't get what criteria you are using to determine why LT was SO much better than Ware. I'm not saying I disagree with you totally, but I think it's obvious that Ware produces like him and has the potential to be even better than him. My eyes tell me that they look very similar. Anybody can put up a highlight video that looks good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGTh6qhciy0

See...

 

[Clove]

Let's see, if you go 60 minutes, you don't pressure the QB once, but get a sack in each game, that makes you great? I don't think so.

Pressure pressure pressure. Something that Haley did almost everytime he rushed the QB, the QB was on the run. Some games Ware brings that consistant pressure, but this year, he's done it maybe once.

I will say this though. I don't know if back in the day they had schems to take away dominant pass rushers, IE, chipping etc... Maybe Adam can dig up something, and Ware gets chipped a lot.

So I would like to know what those others had on the opposite side of them, if they had scrubs, then I will back down from Ware because Ware has absolutely no help opposite him.

 

[AdamJT13]

Ware is getting double teamed at times, and sees a chip pretty much every play, but teams threw the freakin' house at LT and he still produced.

And teams still left him one-on-one with a tackle, a tight end or a back sometimes, allowing him to produce even more.

Taylor might be the greatest defensive player in NFL history. There's no need to exaggerate what he did and make it sound like he was always triple-teamed and still couldn't be blocked.

Clinton Portis had 5900 yards after his first 4 years in the league.

I guess he's better than Emmitt was cuz Emmitt only had 5,365.

Emmitt had 5,699 yards after four years. (Portis had 5,930.)

And zrinkill never said Ware is better than Taylor was, he just said you can't say that he will never be as good as Taylor was. Just as you couldn't have definitively said after Portis' first four years that he would never be as good as Emmitt was. Even now, you probably still can't say it for sure.

 

[Rack]

Another thing to note, the best record the Giants had during LT's first 4 years in the league was 9-7 (twice). Their worst was 3-13.

The worst year Ware has had his first 3+ years in hte league was, 9-7... twice. The best was 13-3 (unless we top that this year).


Ware has been on better teams up to this point in his career than LT was.


Dang would I love for us to improve from here on out the way the giants did during that time. In LT's 5th year they 10-6 (1-1 in the playoffs) and they won the superbowl (at 14-2) in his 6th year (he had 20.5 sacks that year).

 

[aikemirv]

What, you think they took LT off the field when they switched to the Nickel?




People, stop being homers. Ware is great, the best in the NFL today. But he's no LT.

I am not saying they took him off the field. Are you saying that LT lined up as DE in the nickel when they went to the nickel? I don't remeber that - I was young and maybe I did not notice but it he was not necessarily the LB they put as DE in the nickel.

 

[burmafrd]

I watched the same games as you did Rack and I say you are exagerating LT. He was really built up by the media. I have SAID that Ware is NOT as good as LT= BUT I also said that the gap is NOT THAT BIG either and that LT was not the GOD you claim he was. The stats support me in that as well so your arguement is reduced to an opinion and nothing more.

 

[Rack]

Let's see, if you go 60 minutes, you don't pressure the QB once, but get a sack in each game, that makes you great? I don't think so.

Pressure pressure pressure. Something that Haley did almost everytime he rushed the QB, the QB was on the run. Some games Ware brings that consistant pressure, but this year, he's done it maybe once.

I will say this though. I don't know if back in the day they had schems to take away dominant pass rushers, IE, chipping etc... Maybe Adam can dig up something, and Ware gets chipped a lot.

So I would like to know what those others had on the opposite side of them, if they had scrubs, then I will back down from Ware because Ware has absolutely no help opposite him.

^^^ That.

And teams still left him one-on-one with a tackle, a tight end or a back sometimes, allowing him to produce even more.

Taylor might be the greatest defensive player in NFL history. There's no need to exaggerate what he did and make it sound like he was always triple-teamed and still couldn't be blocked.




Emmitt had 5,699 yards after four years. (Portis had 5,930.)

And zrinkill never said Ware is better than Taylor was, he just said you can't say that he will never be as good as Taylor was. Just as you couldn't have definitively said after Portis' first four years that he would never be as good as Emmitt was. Even now, you probably still can't say it for sure.

I wasn't exhaggerating what LT did. LT has an "Edge" about him that made him a better player. Ware doesn't have that "Edge". He never will cuz he's too good of a person.

I can't see Ware coking up at halftime or cussing out opposing players on the field.

IMO, LT = Ware if LT weren't a lunatic.

Let's be honest here, you have to be a little crazy as it is to play football. With some guys being too crazy is a detriment, but I don't see that being the case with a pass rusher. I think being a lunatic helps in that area.

Again, JMO. But there's no "Stats" to back up the effectiveness lunacy has on a pass rusher so I guess that makes me automatically wrong.

 

[superpunk]

Taylor might be the greatest defensive player in NFL history. There's no need to exaggerate what he did and make it sound like he was always triple-teamed and still couldn't be blocked.

Thanks. That's the notion I was trying to get across. Same thing with Haley and the notion that he was beating double teams and applying constant pressure.

 

[AdamJT13]

Pressure pressure pressure. Something that Haley did almost everytime he rushed the QB

Oh, brother.

 

[Rack]

I am not saying they took him off the field. Are you saying that LT lined up as DE in the nickel when they went to the nickel? I don't remeber that - I was young and maybe I did not notice but it he was not necessarily the LB they put as DE in the nickel.

I don't remember for sure, but they had to have had him out there doing something. You don't take the greatest pass rusher in the game off the field when it's 3rd and long, right?

Maybe they had him as a stand up DE?

I watched the same games as you did Rack and I say you are exagerating LT. He was really built up by the media. I have SAID that Ware is NOT as good as LT= BUT I also said that the gap is NOT THAT BIG either and that LT was not the GOD you claim he was. The stats support me in that as well so your arguement is reduced to an opinion and nothing more.

He absolutely was that dominant. He absolutely was not built up by the media.

I never claimed he was a god (please, settle down with the exhaggerations).


The stats do NOT support you. ONE stat semi-supports you. There's lot of other "Stats" to consider, and there there's WATCHING the players of course.


And then there's the fact that you're the poster at these forums that MOST lets his bias cloud his judgement so your opinion is worth about as much as the present I jsut dropped in my toilet.

 

[Rack]

Thanks. That's the notion I was trying to get across. Same thing with Haley and the notion that he was beating double teams and applying constant pressure.

Oh, brother.

Yeah I agree with that. Haley was a monster (and he had that "Edge") but he wasn't on LT's level either.


I do believe, without a doubt, that tackles were more intimidated to face Haley than tackles are to face Ware.

I mean... they probably heard the "Stories" about Haley and were afraid he was gonna take out his fire hose and strangle them with it.

Tackles facing Ware saw him on Hard Knocks singing "fingers and toes" to his daughter... not so intimidating.

 

[DallasEast]

But Demarcus Ware is a great LB, the best defensive player on our team, and while our pass rush seems to disappear on more pass plays than it shows up, I don't blame DWare.....I think our team continues to expect more from the other 3-4 guys they turn loose on the QB...and sadly, those guys almost never produce.

This is my usual observation game to game. No pressure, no pressure, no pressure. Some of that absence can be applied to linebackers playing zone a great deal, but when linebackers are blitzing, they aren't getting consistent penetration into the offensive backfield.

Quite frankly, for a 3-4 defense to be highly effective versus the pass, it has to get that pressure from the linebackers. We know what to expect from Ware. He's as solid an outside linebacker as they come, so the other linebackers have to take up the slack. If not, Stewart and Phillips should include more cornerback/safety blitzes to increase quarterback hurries.

The pressure upfront has to come from somewhere other than from Ware each down. Ratliff is a stud, but again, he's a 3-4 defensive end playing mostly at nose. Any pressure from him up the middle is gravy. He's not going to push the pocket back into the quarterback's face every series. He's going to maintain and hopefully slip through for a sack or pressure from time-to-time. The same goes for Canty from the edge. Spears just isn't getting that push from the other side, but he's solid against the run.

So, if the pressure's not coming from the defensive line, where should it come from? We have the linebackers on this team to get that kind of pressure series after series each game, but we're not seeing it. In my opinion, that's a failure on the coaches for not being more creative in their schemes.

 

[AdamJT13]

I wasn't exhaggerating what LT did.

You said, "teams threw the house and him and he still produced," as if he was beating double- and triple-teams on every play. That's not true.

LT has an "Edge" about him that made him a better player. Ware doesn't have that "Edge". He never will cuz he's too good of a person.

But that doesn't mean Ware will never be as good. It just means he's different.

 

[goshan]

I have watched every game Haley played as a Cowboy and every game Ware played. And I have a good memory.
You guys that think Ware is as good as a pass rusher as Haley are kidding yourselves. I could care less about the stats.
Ware is great and I love him and Ware is far better than Haley as an all around player, but Haley was better at getting to the QB.

 

[TNCowboy]

Ware is an excellent DE with the potential to be dominant. He has every tool needed.

He hasn't played as well as he could have. I don't think we're seeing his best. I still have hope that he can be a force the way that Haley was.

Haley did not consistenly beat double teams. Neither did Reggie White. Neither did LT. Amazing how the legends of some players grows after they've been gone a while.

Having said that, so what if he's not LT? Every defensive player in the NFL is looking up at LT.

LT was bar-none the greatest defensive player I've ever seen. Reggie White was awesome. Charles Haley was great. Randy White was awesome. Deion Sanders was great. That's not to say that stars of 30 and 40 years ago like Lily and Butkus weren't better, but I can't speak to them having never watched them play, or at least was too young to appreciate them.

But I can speak to the players I have seen, and I'd say that among defenders, I'd put LT as the best I've ever seen, even ahead of Reggie White.

 

[AdamJT13]

Tackles facing Ware saw him on Hard Knocks singing "fingers and toes" to his daughter... not so intimidating.

Knees and toes.

 

[AdamJT13]

I have watched every game Haley played as a Cowboy and every game Ware played. And I have a good memory.
You guys that think Ware is as good as a pass rusher as Haley are kidding yourselves.

I have watched every game Haley played as a Cowboy and every game Ware has played. And I have a good memory. You guys who think Haley pressured the passer "almost every time he rushed the quarterback" are kidding yourselves.

 

[Clove]

Oh, brother.

Let's say, he did it alot. Not almost every down, but a whole lot.

 

[zrinkill]

Don't start with the namecalling or I will lower the freakin' boom on you, boy.

I go to lunch and come back to this nonsense.

Where did I call you a name? I said the statement that Ware will never be as good as LT was dumb. And it is since none of us know how much of his potential he will reach.

And I am more than ready for you to try and "lower the boom" on me kid.


Ahhh the Stats are not important defense.

 

[Clove]

I have watched every game Haley played as a Cowboy and every game Ware has played. And I have a good memory. You guys who think Haley pressured the passer "almost every time he rushed the quarterback" are kidding yourselves.

I do know this. The day Haley left this team, we've been nothing.

I loved watching Haley, he had a pacman type attitude, just mean mean mean.

I believe that Ware will never have that attitude, but I beileve that Ware will surpass Haley in pass rush dominance, he has all the tools, he's still young, and he still has little help on the other side. But as of today, he's not there.