Dissing DWare

[JohnnyHopkins]

If you want to take issue with his comparison, do it in a realistic manner, not a ridiculous confrontational manner.

Some people might think that your "Buckle Your Seatbelts" comments could be taken as ridiculous and confrontational.

 

[quaigs]

Fact: Demarcus Ware is not Lawrence Taylor. He is not a dominant pass rusher who strikes fear into both the QB and the OT. He doesn't knock the QB down repeatedly during the game or get consistent pressure that forces the offense to change its practices. DWare does not beat double teams.

This is getting ridiculous now.

How in the world is Ware not one of the best pass rushers in the league? He was near the top in the league sacks last year and is again this year what more does he have to do? Break the single game sack record every game until he ends up getting a sack on every play?

How does he not strike fear into the QB and LT when everybody in the league knows what a freak he is?

How does the other team not change its practices (what ever this means)? When every team Dallas plays, there main priority in their game plan is to stop Ware.

And how can you say Ware doesn't beat double teams, when he is double or tripled teamed on every play.

 

[superpunk]

Some people might think that your "Buckle Your Seatbelts" comments could be taken as ridiculous and confrontational.

They would be wrong. I simply knew what was coming, because it's the same thing that ALWAYS comes out when the statistics refute someone's personal opinion. The statistics are discounted. It's almost an ad hominem fallacy on the statistics.

In jimmy's case, he attempted to discount the statistics by demanding statistics that EVERYONE knows don't even exist in any form available to the public.

Mine may have been confrontational, but it wasn't ridiculous - not like that.

 

[khiladi]

Note how I stressed that it was my opinion.

Now let's try a rebuttal khiladi style;

Yes it is... Teams are using more west coast principles and quick hitting routes, and because of the focus on illegal contact and defnsive holding players are able to get open alot quicker and easier, making it easier to complete passes and giving defenders less time to sack the QB.

You didn't stress your opinion.. And further..

Even if you go to West Coast, that still raises the probability of garnering a bigger sack total, because your passing alot more than your running... You have more chances at sacking a QB...

The fact is, teams are passing more and teams spread out a lot more...

It's obvious that my rebuttal style is too complex for you to use effectively... stick to trying to be witty...

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

They would be wrong. I simply knew what was coming, because it's the same thing that ALWAYS comes out when the statistics refute someone's personal opinion. The statistics are discounted. It's almost an ad hominem fallacy on the statistics.

In jimmy's case, he attempted to discount the statistics by demanding statistics that EVERYONE knows don't even exist in any form available to the public.

Mine may have been confrontational, but it wasn't ridiculous - not like that.

OH YEAH? Well, I was just messing with ya anyway!

 

[goshan]

I have watched every game Haley played as a Cowboy and every game Ware has played. And I have a good memory. You guys who think Haley pressured the passer "almost every time he rushed the quarterback" are kidding yourselves.

Are you talking to me Adam? Because I didn't say that. I said he got to the QB more often than Ware does.


The Homerism here continues to amaze me:
1. About half the people in Zone Game Day Chat have been saying that although Ware is great, he doesn't seem to be getting to the QB as much this year. Some say that a lot of his sacks have come late in games where the game was probably decided.
2. Stats are posted that back up the fact a lot of his sacks were late in games -- a few occurred when the game was out of hand.
3. Homers gets POed again and call those that have observed he isn't getting as much pressure as before Ware haters (despite the fact that these 'haters' still say he is an ALL Pro and the best Dplayer on the team).
4. At least one Dallas writer comes out and says the same thing as the 'Ware Haters' - hasn't played quite as well as he can (even though he is still a great player).
5. Ware himself, comes out and says he hasn't played as well as he wanted to. Ware says that he doesn't care what the stats say. See article posted by Woodysgirl.
6. Homers, of course, don't post in that thread.
7. A thread is started that says Ware isn't as good a pass rusher as LT or Haley.
8. Homers, who supposedly watched all these guys play, will not admit that at this point, Ware doesn't get to the QB as well as LT or Haley.

This inability to look at 'improvement opportunities' with an unbiased, critical eye is exactly the issue with Wade Phillips.

I am glad that Ware himself is able to critically look at himself better than those Homers here at the Zone.

 

[superpunk]

You didn't stress your opinion.. And further..

Even if you go to West Coast, that still raises the probability of garnering a bigger sack total, because your passing alot more than your running... You have more chances at sacking a QB...

The fact is, teams are passing more and teams spread out a lot more...

It's obvious that my rebuttal style is too complex for you to use effectively... stick to trying to be witty...

In 1987 teams gave up an average of 39.5 sacks per season.

In 2007 teams gave up an average of 34.4 sacks per season.

Now, in 2007 teams attempted on average 50 more passes per season than they did in 2007. So, does your claim that more passing attempts should equal more sacks hold up under observation?

Obviously not.

A conclusion that CAN be drawn, however, is that even though teams definitely ARE passing more in 2007 than they did in 1987, it is MORE DIFFICULT to get sacks - which supports my position.

 

[zrinkill]

2. Stats are posted that back up the fact a lot of his sacks were late in games -- a few occurred when the game was out of hand.

I would love to see these.

And then compared with the stats that show what quarter L.T. and Haley got most of their sacks.

 

[goshan]

They are in the forum--go find them.

 

[zrinkill]

They are in the forum--go find them.

Could you tell me what poster posted them? Or what thread they were in?

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

I would love to see these.

And then compared with the stats that show what quarter L.T. and Haley got most of their sacks.

Also, it is well known that Haley did not like to wear a jock-strap, so I would like to know how he fared in games that he used one versus those that he did not.

 

[zrinkill]

Found them.

CLE: 4th quarter, 11:10 remaining, 3rd-and-11, Dallas up 28-10
PHI: 4th quarter, 1:23 remaining, 3rd-and-13, Dallas up 41-37
GB: 4th quarter, 0:36 remaining, 2nd-and-10, Dallas up 27-16
WAS: 1st quarter, 3:35 remaining, 3rd-and-7, scoreless
CIN: 4th quarter, 1:44 remaining, 2nd-and-10, Dallas up 31-22

The only one I'd consider garbage time is the one against Green Bay. Cleveland and Cincinnati still had plenty of time to come back.

And found the rebuttal which pretty much sums it up.

 

[khiladi]

In 1987 teams gave up an average of 39.5 sacks per season.

In 2007 teams gave up an average of 34.4 sacks per season.

Now, in 2007 teams attempted on average 50 more passes per season than they did in 2007. So, does your claim that more passing attempts should equal more sacks hold up under observation?

Obviously not.

A conclusion that CAN be drawn, however, is that even though teams definitely ARE passing more in 2007 than they did in 1987, it is MORE DIFFICULT to get sacks - which supports my position.

I'm sorry... But did Lawrence Taylor only play in 1987?

So what do your statistics say for LT in 1986, when he had 22.5 sacks, when they were passing less in 1986?

 

[zrinkill]

Also, it is well known that Haley did not like to wear a jock-strap, so I would like to know how he fared in games that he used one versus those that he did not.

So we are only interested in when Ware gets his sacks?

Not when the 2 guys he is being compared against got theirs ......


Gotcha ..... that seems fair.

 

[goshan]

Cle, Cin and GB the sacks had little or no impact.
We can pretend all we want.
Also, it would be interesting to see how many of those sacks were coverage sacks and the QB was running around for over 5 secs - because about half of them were.
How many times do you think Ware has applied 'quick pressure' this year?

If this were Ellis, the whole forum would be saying how all his sacks were garbage and coverage sacks.

It could be that the other LB/DL are the problem...not ruling that out.

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

So we are only interested in when Ware gets his sacks?

Not when the 2 guys he is being compared against got theirs ......


Gotcha ..... that seems fair.

I just read "Boys will be Boys" and Haley's habits just seem to keep stampeding through my head.

 

[khiladi]

You're too dumb for me to talk to anymore. I'm sorry. Somehow the phrase "20 years ago" seems to have escaped your comprehension, even while you watched me compare 2007 to 1987, going back 20 years from the most recently available full year of statistics. Enjoy your stupidity. I've had enough of it.

Ah OK.... so you only compared one year to try and project a statistical distribution for the whole 80s, half of which were played before 1987... Don't even talk about 88-93, where teams were still run-oriented...

Like I said, stick to being witty...

 

[TNCowboy]

I think Ware might be one of the top 5 defensive players in the league , but anyone who thinks that he's in the same ballpark with LT either never saw LT play or is completely delusional.

 

[zrinkill]

Also, it would be interesting to see how many of those sacks were coverage sacks and the QB was running around for over 5 secs - because about half of them were.

Haley and L.T. had some pretty good defensive backs as well.

I swear some of you guys will say anything.

 

[AdamJT13]

In 1987 teams gave up an average of 39.5 sacks per season.

In 2007 teams gave up an average of 34.4 sacks per season.

Now, in 2007 teams attempted on average 50 more passes per season than they did in 2007. So, does your claim that more passing attempts should equal more sacks hold up under observation?

Obviously not.

A conclusion that CAN be drawn, however, is that even though teams definitely ARE passing more in 2007 than they did in 1987, it is MORE DIFFICULT to get sacks - which supports my position.

Remember, 1987 was a strike season. Teams played only 15 games that year -- some of them with replacement players. It would be better to look at 1986, a full 16-game season.

In 1986, offenses averaged 516.8 attempts and 42.8 times sacked. In 2007, it was 532.7 and 34.4. That's about one more pass attempt per game, but more than half a sack less per game. The rate of sacks went from once every 12.07 pass attempts to once every 15.49 attempts -- a drop of 22 percent in frequency.

The biggest reason for this is the change in passing games that occurred in the late 1980s -- teams went from throwing longer passes, on average, to throwing shorter, quicker passes, on average. (The West Coast offense is an example of this, but all offenses use more shorter, quicker passes now.) Completion rates are up, but yards per catch are down. With quarterbacks getting rid of the ball more quickly, pass rushers don't have as much time to get to the quarterback.